TJB Chat Hijack: ESPN 10/30/2007
It’s been a while, but as always, thanks to commenter zenlaw for digging these up …
ESPN Chat with Matt Williamson 10/30/2007.
Marc (Port Chester): How soon before we find out if Kellen Clemens is the answer?
SportsNation Matt Williamson: Next year at this time. It takes a while bro!
TJB Brian Bassett: Should Clemens play the rest of the season, I think we’re off to a good start on seeing how he’ll fare, but let me preach patience. Patience, patience, patience … you can’t expect him to go out and be the panacea of this team, especially with the competition he’ll face. According to Football Outsiders defensive rankings, in the coming weeks, he would be slated to play Washington (5th), Pittsburgh (2nd), Dallas (7th), Miami (31st), Cleveland (29th), New England (3rd), Tennessee (1st) and Kansas City (8th). Don’t expect to see him putting up 400 yards and 4 TDs week in and out.
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Kevin (NYC): What is your take on the Jets and A) Clemens over Chad and B) Vilma out with a mysterious “knee injury” (BTW seems fishy to me).
SportsNation Matt Williamson: Vilma obviously wants out of town and it would certainly be the right more for both parties. Same with D Robertson actually. Players do not like playing for Mangini. Pennington was not the problem, but you do have to see what you have in Clemens. Their OL and DL are terrible and you can’t win games without strong play from the big boys.
TJB Brian Bassett: Regardless of whether Pennington is the biggest problem or not, the coaching staff needs to determine if Clemens is the real deal or not, and needs to see time. As far as Vilma, the injury isn’t fishy in my book, it’s legit … it’s counter to the best interests of trying to trade him if they shut him down due to a chronic knee injury. I think Vilma wants out, and for all the public discretion, Mangini and Vilma are having a tough time getting along. Depending on how David Harris plays the rest of the season, that will determine in large part what bargaining room the Jets have with Vilma.
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jim(NYC): You say players do not like to play for Mangini. how does he have a job then? any chance Cowher would come to the Jets?
SportsNation Matt Williamson: No idea on Cowher, but Mangini was a Coach of the Year candidate a year ago. That team came back to earth and are just getting killed up front. From what I understand, he isn’t popular at all with the players.
TJB Brian Bassett: I’ve seen this message on my site, and I think that bringing in Bill Cowher is a terrible idea for various reasons, but first and foremost, he had a great support staff and front office making decisions to put things together for him. As far as Mangini being a candidate for Coach of the Year, big deal. The media is notorious for picking flash in the pan darlings as COY and then three years later they are run out of town … Jim Haslett was a COY for crap’s sake.
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Kelvin (Dayton): Stat of the week: Buff, Jets, & Dolphins have a combined FOUR wins (and THREE of those were against each other). If not for the Pats, would this be the worst division ever?
SportsNation Matt Williamson: NO QUESTION! Ugly
TJB Brian Bassett: That’s like asking,”without Peyton Manning, are the Colts a top tier team?” Next …
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Eric (Tampa): Matt… You keep ripping the Jets offensive line, but honestly, they haven’t been that terrible. Ferguson has played very well this year, and Mangold has been excellent. They are improving in the running game each week as well. The problem is the LG and RT positions. Those two need upgrades, but they haven’t been that bad.
SportsNation Matt Williamson: I agree…and disagree. I love Mangold. I like Brick and he will get much better. Still, he isn’t very physical. The other spots are suspect, but yes, they are improving a bit. Still, pit them against a big time DL and they are doomed. Needing two starters is not a easy task to fill.
TJB Brian Bassett: Brick has shown improvement this season and his biggest area of growth is still run blocking … but not having Pete Kendall on his right shoulder isn’t helping matters, I think Nick has struggled with doling out assignments at least at the beginning of the season. Adrien Clarke is terrible and they need to determine if Monty or Bender are long-term solutions for this line before they go into free agency.
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Cliff (Pompton Lakes, NJ): Does Chad swallow his pride and return as a back up with the Jets in 2008?
SportsNation Matt Williamson: Nah, I bet he starts somewhere else next year. SF would kill for him. Many teams would. He can still be a very good West Coast QB. Honestly, can you name 20 better QBs in the league right now? I don’t love Chad, but I doubt I could come up with 20.
TJB Brian Bassett: This decision will be up to him, there’s no way the Jets are going to pay him what he’s supposed to make as a backup, if he wants to renegotiate, then that’s up to him. Teams like San Fran, Tampa, and Jacksonville could all be potential destinations off the top of my head. If Pennington still thinks he can start somewhere, there there’s no way they can keep him … they owe it to him.
11 Responses to TJB Chat Hijack: ESPN 10/30/2007
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subwayfare says:
is it not obvious that vilma’s “knee injury” was simply the most face saving method of getting him off the field and harris on? if he were simply benched it would hurt his value and likely cause a kendall-like outburst. this way he was injured – not career threatening of course – and he’ll make a “full recovery” right in time to be traded. every game he played poorly in this system hurt the team, slowed it’s evolution into a better unit and hurt his value on the open market. i gurantee this was all worked out by all parties behind closed doors in the hopes it would stay there.
i also wouldn’t say the OL is terrible. it’s a couple of pieces and another year of experience from becoming a good unit. The DL is another matter. I think Clemens will surprise people and the more he plays the faster he’ll improve but it will be ugly at times, just like for any rookie.
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SackDance99 says:
I agree Toon. Winning cures everything. Coughlin may get a contract extension and Del Rio could, too. Both guys have bad reps with the players.
I think that trashing both lines is unfair. The OL has gotten better each week and any breakdown has been caused by placing the OL in obvious passing situations or because defenses play 8 men in the box. Jones is at 3.8 ypc and I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up over 4.0 and with over 1,100 yards. Plus, generally, the pass blocking has been sound.
The DL has been erratic and a victim of strange game plans, like playing back against Cincy and the Giants in the 2nd half. But, harping on the DL in a 3-4 is wrong; focus has to be on the front 7 and there’s no doubt that 3 of the 4 LBs should be replaced. I can live with Ellis, Coleman and an NT that can play the 2-gap.
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Harlan Lachman says:
Our team has more holes than a Swiss cheese. What we owe Chad is nothing to what Woody owes long time Jet fans. If we cannot trade Chad for a very good first day pick(s), he is more valuable to us as a back-up and helper to KC. This is a business. Let’s not run it like Columbia’s football team.
h
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junior6765 says:
I feel like everyone else here. The vilma issue with the injury i think is false. I think he is injured but not to the degree the coaches make it out to be. I think there just going to shut him down so they can market him for trade bait as well as chad. D. Robertson on the other hand is another story. I as a long time jet fan have to say that he is the scenerio of the round peg square hole situation. I feel that Robertson being so small in the middle is the reason we are pityful and follow me here. In all real good 3-4 defenses there is that noseguard the is basically a fire hydrant in the middle between 6″2 and 6″5 and usually weigh 330 and up (up as in two ton Ted washington). Now here is Robertson who is all of 293 and is not commanding a double team therefore now guards can get on vilma and fighting off guards is not vilmas strong point which makes him look foolish and like he cant play the middle. Now if they were smart they trade Robertson go get a noseguard that plays 3-4 move vilma to the outside play harris in the middle with barton and get rid of hobson and there you go..
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Zenlaw says:
Trading Vilma or D-Rob will be just like when Douglas and Farrior left. They will immediately contribute to their new teams and reach the pro-bowl.
The Jets coaching staff needs to learn how to bring out the best in their players and to create schemes that are best suited for the players on the team.
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J Roc says:
Why couldn’t Vilma and Harris play along side each other? Wasn’t that the plan? Can’t the management try to play D-Rob on the outside? I just don’t understand how we’re going to be without a #4 overall and a #12 overall pick by the beginning of 2008!
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Junior, D-Rob is listed at 6-1, 317 lbs. That’s slightly less than ideal size for an NT. Kelly Gregg, who plays NT for the Ravens’ hybrid 4-3, is 6-0, 310 lbs. and may make the Pro Bowl. It’s not D-Rob’s size, it’s what the coaching staff is asking him to do: stay at the line of scrimmage and occupy 2 OL. That’s not D-Rob’s strength, he’s a penetrator. Watch Gregg on Monday night; he’s a 1-gap NT who rips the C. Why can’t the Jets have D-Rob do the same thing? Plus, D-Rob is too small (in height) for DE.
Plus, with Harris and another big ILB (at least 6-2 and 245 lbs), the run defense would be better, even with D-Rob in there. My point is that the Jets don’t really have to get rid of both and, unlike with NTs, this draft has, at least, 2 very good ILB prospects (OSU’s Laurinaitis and USC’s Maualuga), if they come out as juniors. And, ILBs have a much better chance of being productive on day 1, whereas an NT might take a year or 2 to develop. There isn’t an NT prospect that is worth taking with a first-round pick and certainly not a top 10.
Zenlaw, I’m not sure about Vilma. I think teams have discovered that running right at him is the way to beat him…that’s not a good thing for any ILB, even an MLB in the 4-3. But, I do think D-Rob can get to the Pro Bowl level if he’s utilized correctly and his knees hold up.
Also, not signing Farrior because Cottrell liked Sam Cowart was one of the many Hermway blunders, as was switching to the 4-3. If going from Parcells/Groh to Herm to Mangini has taught us anything, it’s taught us that continuity on defense is important. Having to acquire and draft new personnel just to implement the defensive system takes away from fixing other areas. Also, all the back ups that a team has been grooming have to be replaced…just too much upheaval. Mangini/Tannenbaum have taken up a huge undertaking. The complete overhaul of an aging offense and the complete turnover of the front 7. By my count, the Jets still need a 2-gap NT, an ILB and 2 OLBs. And, then, groom repalcements at DE. A very tall order.
Whomever the next coach is, I hope that coach just sticks with the 3-4.
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Jeff says:
Good points SackDance, continuity on defense is key to any team and also to any offense. We have been so inefficient for the past 6-7yrs because of these new schemes that we never keep. We had a 3-4 switched to a 4-3 had to unload and aquire new players for that scheme, switched back to the 3-4 need to onload old players and get players for new scheme. If you want something to work you stick with it and let it seep in after time until eventually it is great. Look at the Colts offense or Denver to see a model for success. Colts have Tom Moore their offensive coordinator since the mid-90′s no wonder they are so efficient because they keep their personnel. The Colts can find players that fit their scheme and they blend in perfectly to their team. Denver ever since Shanahan has been there they have been using a zone-blocking scheme, look how well they have done it, almost to perfection. That’s why every year they have a 1200-1500yd rusher since TD. Continuity is a key and a map to success for any team or scheme.
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jet4lif says:
Extremely good point SD99. And I hope Woody and Tannenbaum realize it too. If you look around the league, the best defenses have been in place for years. If not the co-ordinators, then the schemes and styles. These teams have been promoting coaches among themselves when they loose their co-ordinators which helps for the continuity. This was one reason I never questioned the current coaches affinity for 3-4 D. Even if it deosnt work this year, it doesnt mean that we shd go back to something else and hire coaches accordingly.
On NT, I hope we are able to trade with someone using Vilma or Chad or Drob. I dont think Vikings have any good combo of NT/ILB’s for us. -
I mostly agree with SD99. I’m not quite as sold on D-Rob but he certainly can be used better. Vilma would never have been picked by this regime. He is absolutely not a 3-4 linebacker. He may be successful behind a massive front 4 and I say try to find where that is and take whatever can be gotten for him.
The calls for coaching changes are naive. I guarantee you that Woody J. understood that it would take time to emulate the Pats system after saying goodbye to Hermway. Mangini can do better in terms of motivating, putting the right players on the filed, gameplanning, etc., and I’m sure he knows that and will improve.
And I also warn against the notion of lusting for that one or two players via draft or free agency at this stage. What if that one marquee signing snaps a tendon in camp? The Pats took years assembling a roster full of their kind of players before splashing out for the Randy Mosses. I don’t fault them for the move up for Harris and Revis this year – two very good fits with big upsides – but I think you will likley see the old Parcells, trade down and get volume strategy in this draft.
so last year the players “bought into” Mangini’s system and this year “they hate playing for him.” Everyone is just frustrated because of the losing and the media loves to make stuff up – just like Belichick “lost the locker room” when he cut Lawyer Milloy in 2003.