Comments on: 2008 Jets State of the Union Part 2: The QB Quandry http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/ Ranting and Raving about the Gang Green Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:56:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: klecko71 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65229 klecko71 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 06:17:35 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65229 hey…anyone have a flashback when they saw the third down QB run by ben with 250 left and 2 timeouts left for the jags?? cmon…think… i will wait to see if anyone knows what flashback i mean… and in the meantime…lets take solace in that the jets arent the only franchise that makes MORONIC calls that lose playoff games, at that point, u gotta throw for the first down or at least roll ben right and give him a pass option so maybe the run has a better chance of working. playing loser ball there so u make the jags use timeout number 2????? at that point it didnt matter b/c u punted from ur 25….got a 35-38 yd punt which is normal in those conditions, and handed the ball back to the jags at the 50 after a 10 yd return. AND PROOF of the lack of concern about the timeouts at that pt….del rio chose to challenge a play that looked pretty much a lock to be upheld….on the chance he might get lucky…even though it cost him his last timeout. he was smart…he is at the 50…with 230 left…odds are u will either get in field goal range in plenty of time or just give it up on downs and lose…u wont need the last timeout. what a brutal play call by pitt there. i await comparisons to a similar play in jet playoff history…. hey…anyone have a flashback when they saw the third down QB run by ben with 250 left and 2 timeouts left for the jags??

cmon…think…

i will wait to see if anyone knows what flashback i mean…
and in the meantime…lets take solace in that the jets arent the only franchise that makes MORONIC calls that lose playoff games,

at that point, u gotta throw for the first down or at least roll ben right and give him a pass option so maybe the run has a better chance of working. playing loser ball there so u make the jags use timeout number 2????? at that point it didnt matter b/c u punted from ur 25….got a 35-38 yd punt which is normal in those conditions, and handed the ball back to the jags at the 50 after a 10 yd return. AND PROOF of the lack of concern about the timeouts at that pt….del rio chose to challenge a play that looked pretty much a lock to be upheld….on the chance he might get lucky…even though it cost him his last timeout. he was smart…he is at the 50…with 230 left…odds are u will either get in field goal range in plenty of time or just give it up on downs and lose…u wont need the last timeout.

what a brutal play call by pitt there.

i await comparisons to a similar play in jet playoff history….

]]> By: vurtualife http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65227 vurtualife Sun, 06 Jan 2008 06:01:37 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65227 Slight edit to my above comment: "putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and set up play-action." -- for clarity, read that as: "putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and generating more effective play-action plays." Slight edit to my above comment: “putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and set up play-action.” — for clarity, read that as: “putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and generating more effective play-action plays.”

]]> By: vurtualife http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65226 vurtualife Sun, 06 Jan 2008 05:57:14 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65226 Some great comments in this thread, though I'd have to agree strongly with all the points made by Sackdance99 and dbatesman -- it's time to move forward w/out Chad as starter. Whether or not Clemens is our future is another debate, though I echo the sentiments made by some here that it is simply too early to grade him at this point. Although I don't have the exact stats, etc. nearby, didn't both Romo and Gerrard [to use 2 current playoff QBs] sit their first 3-4 yrs [or more] as backups before finally being deemed "ready" to be pro starting QBs? And, though both have had great runs to this point, haven't both made some egregious throwing errors in some key games? In fact, anyone watching tonight's game vs. the Steelers saw Gerrard throw a couple of bad INTs, only to come through in the end with a win. Point is -- it's WAY to early to call Clemens a bust. In fact, there were some encouraging things we saw in his 7 starts: poise, great arm, and play-making ability. Another year of reflection/practice and a stronger, rebuilt O-Line may go a long way towards not only improving his accuracy and poise in the pocket, but also open up the run game, putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and set up play-action. [as an aside, I am predicting a monster year from T.Jones and L.Washington, assuming the FO does its job and does indeed bolster our O-Line]. Some great comments in this thread, though I’d have to agree strongly with all the points made by Sackdance99 and dbatesman — it’s time to move forward w/out Chad as starter. Whether or not Clemens is our future is another debate, though I echo the sentiments made by some here that it is simply too early to grade him at this point. Although I don’t have the exact stats, etc. nearby, didn’t both Romo and Gerrard [to use 2 current playoff QBs] sit their first 3-4 yrs [or more] as backups before finally being deemed “ready” to be pro starting QBs? And, though both have had great runs to this point, haven’t both made some egregious throwing errors in some key games? In fact, anyone watching tonight’s game vs. the Steelers saw Gerrard throw a couple of bad INTs, only to come through in the end with a win.
Point is — it’s WAY to early to call Clemens a bust. In fact, there were some encouraging things we saw in his 7 starts: poise, great arm, and play-making ability. Another year of reflection/practice and a stronger, rebuilt O-Line may go a long way towards not only improving his accuracy and poise in the pocket, but also open up the run game, putting less pressure on Clemens to throw and set up play-action. [as an aside, I am predicting a monster year from T.Jones and L.Washington, assuming the FO does its job and does indeed bolster our O-Line].

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65225 SackDance99 Sun, 06 Jan 2008 05:07:46 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65225 muff, IMO, Chad deteriorated in '07. Most people blame the OL, but I cited his actual INTs because in many of those instances, he wasn't under duress, he just made either poor decisions or he just could not make NFL-quality throws. In '07, Chad actually had a higher QB rating than in '06, but his on-the-filed performance was awful. I compared him to Rosenfels to show that, again IMO, a decent journeyman may actually be better than Chad at this point in his career. Also, IMO, his lack of arm strength has put a tremendous amount of pressure on the running game, which always faces 8-9 men in the box, and as Schlichter points out, his WRs are taking vicious blows from LBs and safeties. I hate to say it, but Chad hurt the Jets this year and I just don't believe keeping him on the roster helps Clemens or the team. It's a harsh reality for a nice guy. muff, IMO, Chad deteriorated in ’07. Most people blame the OL, but I cited his actual INTs because in many of those instances, he wasn’t under duress, he just made either poor decisions or he just could not make NFL-quality throws. In ’07, Chad actually had a higher QB rating than in ’06, but his on-the-filed performance was awful. I compared him to Rosenfels to show that, again IMO, a decent journeyman may actually be better than Chad at this point in his career. Also, IMO, his lack of arm strength has put a tremendous amount of pressure on the running game, which always faces 8-9 men in the box, and as Schlichter points out, his WRs are taking vicious blows from LBs and safeties. I hate to say it, but Chad hurt the Jets this year and I just don’t believe keeping him on the roster helps Clemens or the team. It’s a harsh reality for a nice guy.

]]> By: muff http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65214 muff Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:06:53 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65214 sack, i think some of these examples are being used out of the context your intending. for instance the 2nd INT vs buffalo, was under a minute, with no timeouts left. pennington was between a rock and a hard place. either make a low % throw and hope it works out or have time run out. same thing in cincy and the aaron ross return. time was of the essence. i really only had problems with a/b 4 of those ints. the thing is, i just can't see the FO making the decision to move on. there is a good chance and this is rarely talked a/b, mangini and tannanbaum need to win in 2008 for job security. so the question now becomes, can this regime survive a 6 - 10 season? i doubt it. i understand all your points, everything is well thought out and detailed, but there is just no better option in house or through free agency that would give the jets the best shot at winning football games next year. even though you could be right a/b pennington, i just can't see any other starter in wk 1 with so much on the line for the coaches and GM. even more signs pointing to pennington, is the awful production from the KC run offense. i really agree with the point seanmac made when he said, "all the things that gave pennington problems gave clemons even more problems." thats a huge statement and your kidding yourself if you think mangini doesn't know that. another point i'd like to add a/b this is that according to the football outsiders web site, in 2006 pennigton was the 12th ranked qb overall. maybe now i'm thinking too much with my heart rather than my head, but shouldn't he get a mulligan just because there is a chance that your argument against chad could have been factors that he had little control over? sack, i think some of these examples are being used out of the context your intending. for instance the 2nd INT vs buffalo, was under a minute, with no timeouts left. pennington was between a rock and a hard place. either make a low % throw and hope it works out or have time run out. same thing in cincy and the aaron ross return. time was of the essence. i really only had problems with a/b 4 of those ints.

the thing is, i just can’t see the FO making the decision to move on. there is a good chance and this is rarely talked a/b, mangini and tannanbaum need to win in 2008 for job security. so the question now becomes, can this regime survive a 6 – 10 season? i doubt it.

i understand all your points, everything is well thought out and detailed, but there is just no better option in house or through free agency that would give the jets the best shot at winning football games next year. even though you could be right a/b pennington, i just can’t see any other starter in wk 1 with so much on the line for the coaches and GM. even more signs pointing to pennington, is the awful production from the KC run offense. i really agree with the point seanmac made when he said, “all the things that gave pennington problems gave clemons even more problems.” thats a huge statement and your kidding yourself if you think mangini doesn’t know that.

another point i’d like to add a/b this is that according to the football outsiders web site, in 2006 pennigton was the 12th ranked qb overall. maybe now i’m thinking too much with my heart rather than my head, but shouldn’t he get a mulligan just because there is a chance that your argument against chad could have been factors that he had little control over?

]]> By: Schlichter http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65199 Schlichter Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:37:36 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65199 '85 bears ’85 bears

]]> By: Schlichter http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65198 Schlichter Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:37:13 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65198 someone wrote were were a field goal from the afc championship with chad, and i like chad, but the steelers were destroyed by ne in the subsequent champ game, and i believe the same thing would have happened to us. still, that san diego game was fantastic...but back to the topic at hand...even when chad does well and the offensive line holds up, those timing patterns and soft 'touch' passes get his recievers killed..remember coles in the minnesota game...je sets his recievers up to take huge hits. lets stay with clemens and hope he improves as he matures, gains experience, and the ol gets better. chad's arm is too damn weak to win a super bowl unless we have some kind of an '8 bears kind of d....and that ain't gonna happen someone wrote were were a field goal from the afc championship with chad, and i like chad, but the steelers were destroyed by ne in the subsequent champ game, and i believe the same thing would have happened to us. still, that san diego game was fantastic…but back to the topic at hand…even when chad does well and the offensive line holds up, those timing patterns and soft ‘touch’ passes get his recievers killed..remember coles in the minnesota game…je sets his recievers up to take huge hits. lets stay with clemens and hope he improves as he matures, gains experience, and the ol gets better. chad’s arm is too damn weak to win a super bowl unless we have some kind of an ’8 bears kind of d….and that ain’t gonna happen

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65196 SackDance99 Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:53:16 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65196 seanmac, it's not that Chad can't hit any short outs, it's that he is unreliable with a pass that should be routine and DBs know it and jump the pattern. Since you said you've seen every Chad snap, let's relive each of his INTs (you will notice a trend): At Buffalo, Week 4: 2nd and 9 at NYJ 21 (10:08) C.Pennington pass short left intended for L.Coles INTERCEPTED by J.Greer at NYJ 27. J.Greer pushed ob at NYJ 25 for 2 yards (L.Coles). Receiver and coverage along sideline. 1st and 10 at BUF 39 (:11) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short right intended for J.McCareins INTERCEPTED by T.McGee [A.Schobel] at BUF 31. At Giants, Week 5: 2nd and 15 at NYG 37 (5:13) (No Huddle) C.Pennington pass short left intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by S.Madison at NYG 31. S.Madison pushed ob at NYJ 44 for 25 yards (C.Baker). 1st and 10 at NYG 23 (12:36) (No Huddle) C.Pennington pass deep right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by A.Ross [J.Butler] at NYG 2. 2nd and 5 at NYJ 39 (3:28) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by A.Ross at NYJ 43. A.Ross for 43 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Home against Eagles, Week 7: 3rd and 3 at 50 (6:25) (No Huddle, Shotgun) C.Pennington pass deep left intended for B.Smith INTERCEPTED by S.Brown at PHI 30. S.Brown to PHI 30 for no gain (B.Smith). At Cincy, Week 8: 3rd and 11 at NYJ 34 (:46) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short left intended for L.Coles INTERCEPTED by J.Joseph at NYJ 42. J.Joseph for 42 yards, TOUCHDOWN. At Tenn., Week 16: 1st and 10 at NYJ 20 (2:07) C.Pennington pass deep right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by R.Hill at NYJ 40. R.Hill to NYJ 40 for no gain (J.Cotchery). 3rd and 8 at TEN 8 (2:00) C.Pennington pass short left intended for B.Smith INTERCEPTED by K.Bulluck at TEN -7. Touchback. To recap, that's 6 of 9 INTs on short outs, 2 returned for TDs, and one in the redzone. Of his 3 deep pass INTs, the one against the Giants was in the redzone. So, 4 of his 9 INTs either resulted in an immediate TD for the opposition or denied the Jets a scoring opportunity. Generally, there's no good time for an INT, but nearly all of Chad's INTs were particularly inopportune. Remember, most of Chad's supporters cite his decisionmaking as a strength...Chad's made lots of bad decisions this season. Now, I don't have a stats database to draw from, but I compared Chad to Sage Rosenfels. They have similar numbers in terms of attempts, completions and QB rating. Rosenfels had 15 TDs and 12 INTs and the majority were on short passes. Rosenfels did not have a single short pass INT returned for a TD. Why? Well, that's because Rosenfels can throw deep and DBs have to respect that and are less likely to jump his patterns. It's not because of a good OL or running game, the Texans have a terrible OL and poor running game. Their best WR, Andre Johnson, was injured most of the year. And, Rosenfels is a journeyman, at best. When your starting QB cannot out-perform the Sage Rosenfelses of the NFL, it's time for a change. seanmac, it’s not that Chad can’t hit any short outs, it’s that he is unreliable with a pass that should be routine and DBs know it and jump the pattern. Since you said you’ve seen every Chad snap, let’s relive each of his INTs (you will notice a trend):

At Buffalo, Week 4:

2nd and 9 at NYJ 21 (10:08) C.Pennington pass short left intended for L.Coles INTERCEPTED by J.Greer at NYJ 27. J.Greer pushed ob at NYJ 25 for 2 yards (L.Coles). Receiver and coverage along sideline.

1st and 10 at BUF 39 (:11) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short right intended for J.McCareins INTERCEPTED by T.McGee [A.Schobel] at BUF 31.

At Giants, Week 5:

2nd and 15 at NYG 37 (5:13) (No Huddle) C.Pennington pass short left intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by S.Madison at NYG 31. S.Madison pushed ob at NYJ 44 for 25 yards (C.Baker).

1st and 10 at NYG 23 (12:36) (No Huddle) C.Pennington pass deep right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by A.Ross [J.Butler] at NYG 2.

2nd and 5 at NYJ 39 (3:28) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by A.Ross at NYJ 43. A.Ross for 43 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Home against Eagles, Week 7:

3rd and 3 at 50 (6:25) (No Huddle, Shotgun) C.Pennington pass deep left intended for B.Smith INTERCEPTED by S.Brown at PHI 30. S.Brown to PHI 30 for no gain (B.Smith).

At Cincy, Week 8:

3rd and 11 at NYJ 34 (:46) (Shotgun) C.Pennington pass short left intended for L.Coles INTERCEPTED by J.Joseph at NYJ 42. J.Joseph for 42 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

At Tenn., Week 16:

1st and 10 at NYJ 20 (2:07) C.Pennington pass deep right intended for J.Cotchery INTERCEPTED by R.Hill at NYJ 40. R.Hill to NYJ 40 for no gain (J.Cotchery).

3rd and 8 at TEN 8 (2:00) C.Pennington pass short left intended for B.Smith INTERCEPTED by K.Bulluck at TEN -7. Touchback.

To recap, that’s 6 of 9 INTs on short outs, 2 returned for TDs, and one in the redzone. Of his 3 deep pass INTs, the one against the Giants was in the redzone. So, 4 of his 9 INTs either resulted in an immediate TD for the opposition or denied the Jets a scoring opportunity. Generally, there’s no good time for an INT, but nearly all of Chad’s INTs were particularly inopportune. Remember, most of Chad’s supporters cite his decisionmaking as a strength…Chad’s made lots of bad decisions this season.

Now, I don’t have a stats database to draw from, but I compared Chad to Sage Rosenfels. They have similar numbers in terms of attempts, completions and QB rating. Rosenfels had 15 TDs and 12 INTs and the majority were on short passes. Rosenfels did not have a single short pass INT returned for a TD. Why? Well, that’s because Rosenfels can throw deep and DBs have to respect that and are less likely to jump his patterns. It’s not because of a good OL or running game, the Texans have a terrible OL and poor running game. Their best WR, Andre Johnson, was injured most of the year. And, Rosenfels is a journeyman, at best.

When your starting QB cannot out-perform the Sage Rosenfelses of the NFL, it’s time for a change.

]]> By: Nikolas http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65186 Nikolas Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:11:28 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65186 James in TN .. with regard to the FO- since the Kendall fiasco-I have critisized them to the extreme for ONE reason. They seemed too arrogant and unprofessional and that they were messing with the whole season. Some argued that it was not arrogance but conviction that somehow they knew that they had Kendall's replacement and Kendall for an extra million was expendable. Well.. as the season progressed it was proven that there was no replacement... Clarke, Bender etc and consequently there was no season. I also understand that they are young and maybe talented- there are signs of that- and they are going to make mistakes so lets hope that they have learned a lesson. I am willing to give them the OFFSEASON since Cowher is not coming to NY . If in the offseason their pursue for FA players is timid and mediocre and they make stupid moves, like trading Chad for a third or 4th round pick etc then Reality itself will kick their ass. James in TN .. with regard to the FO- since the Kendall fiasco-I have critisized them to the extreme for ONE reason. They seemed too arrogant and unprofessional and that they were messing with the whole season. Some argued that it was not arrogance but conviction that somehow they knew that they had Kendall’s replacement and Kendall for an extra million was expendable. Well.. as the season progressed it was proven that there was no replacement… Clarke, Bender etc and consequently there was no season. I also understand that they are young and maybe talented- there are signs of that- and they are going to make mistakes so lets hope that they have learned a lesson. I am willing to give them the OFFSEASON since Cowher is not coming to NY . If in the offseason their pursue for FA players is timid and mediocre and they make stupid moves, like trading Chad for a third or 4th round pick etc then Reality itself will kick their ass.

]]> By: James in TN http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/01/04/2008-jets-state-of-the-union-part-2-the-qb-quandry/#comment-65179 James in TN Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:13:29 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3230#comment-65179 Let's talk about the demise of the OL. What changed from last year to this year? Tougher schedule, defense heavy draft and playing chicken with Pete Kendall. The FO could control 2 of the 3 contributing factors. Therefore does it not make since to boot Tangini and get some Football people in our FO and at HC? I mean we lost to Joe Gibbs because of Mangina and they made the playoffs. Let's keep our personnel, draft some offensive help at OL and WR, and scrap the HC and win. Let’s talk about the demise of the OL. What changed from last year to this year? Tougher schedule, defense heavy draft and playing chicken with Pete Kendall. The FO could control 2 of the 3 contributing factors. Therefore does it not make since to boot Tangini and get some Football people in our FO and at HC? I mean we lost to Joe Gibbs because of Mangina and they made the playoffs. Let’s keep our personnel, draft some offensive help at OL and WR, and scrap the HC and win.

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