eMailbag: A Comment on Boulay
Somehow, Ian’s comment on the Etienne Boulay signing was lost, and I think that the substance of his point is worth discussing.
These types of signings are fine with me, as the team needs depth. But I am tired of the team’s front office and their in-house p.r. department trying to act as if signing Andre Wadsworth or Etienne Boulay or David Bowens will turn around the team’s fortunes. Truly, this franchise needs to be honest with its fans, and I beleive that the current regime is not honest with us.
In my opinion, I’m not sure that the front office is in fact leading us to believe these players are saviors … they’re clearly not and the types of low-risk contracts the team is signing them to indicates as such (future contracts, small total value deals, etc). I do agree that the franchise isn’t honest with the fans, in my opinion we only care about honesty because this team was 4-12 this past year.
31 Responses to eMailbag: A Comment on Boulay
-
Zenlaw says:
I just hope that Woody Johnson becomes angry that the Giants have reached the Superbowl twice since he purchased the Jets. I’m not advocating a change of coaching or front office per se, but something must be done to improve this franchise.
Most teams have a chance from time to time, but the Jets seem to be perpetually stuck in mediocrity.
-
steviek says:
There seems to be the MO that you can build a championship team with picking “core value” players in the draft and below market FA’s to fill in the gaps like the Patriots did when they first started.
Unfortunately the Jets aren’t going to step in sh*& by drafting a HOF QB in the 6th round who’s willing to take a below market contract.
Even the Pats came to realize some big players through FA were needed to compete at a high level. Though they did do when alot of the other pieces were there, especially on the lines.
I do have confidence that Mannenbaum are plenty smart enough to understand these basic facts. It goes back to the point that if they don’t communicate what their plan is, how can anyone have confidence in it?
Meanwhile the SB will be absolutely painful, especially all the PR the next 2 weeks. It’ll be like having to watch a porno flick with 70 year olds.
-
Tony says:
I couldn’t agree more than what Zenlaw and steviek said above. I think that our team is trying to find the “perfect players” to make things work (team players, great citizens, stellar athletes, etc.), and it just ins’t coming together. Even a casual NYJ fan would look at the results and have to agree that the value the organization is placing on certain attributes is not producing the required results. This has to change immediately if we have any chance of a sustained playoff run, let alone a chance to play in a future SB.
-
dakar says:
harlans right…i’ve been saying that since i found this site…spend big on what we need…which are o-linemen,d-linemen and o-LBs…anythingelse would be a waist of a pick and money…
-
Dave says:
Gotta love the impatient fans.
First year of the Tanny/Mangini regime was total cap hell. It’s actually amazing they had room to sign guys like Dyson and KVO that year.
Second year they still didn’t have much room, they extended some guys and made one significant signing(Kenyon Coleman… funny how many people bashed that and he ends up being one of the few defenders to earn his paycheck).
This year there’s room to make a big signing. First and foremost though, they have to lock up Kerry Rhodes long term. It’s far more important than any potential signings. Even after that, there’s still room for one big signing.
I don’t even know how you can bash signings like this, it’s kind of ridiculous. Free agency hasn’t begun yet. You can’t sign any active NFL players. Why people are complaining about the Jets giving a shot to a productive player from a lower level of competition is beyond me.
Oh, and the people bashing Woody Johnson as a “cheap owner”, learn how things work before you open your mouth. Every team is able to spend the same amount of money, hence the salary cap. It’s basically up to the GM. Woody didn’t prevent Bradway from overpaying mediocre players like Justin McCareins did he?
These guys know what they’re doing. A team isn’t built overnight. They could go out and spend millions every offseason, but then you’d all be crying two years later when your favorite players are cut because the team’s in cap hell after every season.
-
Harlan Lachman says:
Dave, could you explain how after signing Rhodes there will only be room for one signing?
The reports I read talk about 27 mil of cap space. I assume since Rhodes is under contract for $460K that mostly what he gets is bonus now a lot of money as an extension and a balloon at the end to force action again. Even a $16 mil bonus amortized over 4 years which seems ridiculously high only decreases our cap by $4 mil.
Also, we could make Coles happy by extending his contract, converting his next two year’s salary now as bonus and lower his cap cost.
And then there is all the deadwood we could cut.
harlan
-
i agree with harlan again…there is also the fact of d-robs 11-15 mill. that can be reworked to put us in a better cap possition…and there is BT the bust…who in my oppinion isnt worth the 25 mill. he signed last year…bring his earnings down and you will retrieve even more money to our cap…i also read somewhere that c-penn is or has already reworked his contract…dont remember…so there is alot of money we can recoup and alot of moves we can do this year and still be comfy…it just all depends on if the players are willing to take a paycut for the team…i hope they do in order to get what we need…
-
nikolas says:
The coming Free Agency period will be critical for the organization.
Two questions will be answered and the answers will more or less reveal were the franchise is heading.a. Will the FO pursue good but highly priced free agents or they will continue with the Kimos and the Baneses?
b. Will good free agents sign and play for the Jets or will they prefer to sign and play for other teams?
The answer to the first will give an indication about the frame of mind of the FO and the answer to the second will be an indication of its reputation around the league.
And Dave…….., how do you know that these guys know what they are doing? Are you working for them? Because many Jets fans have their doubts and do not share your belief.
-
Buddha says:
The first thing you all need to realize is Woody Johnson is a cheap son of a gun. That’s why he hired Herm Edwards and then Eric Mangini. Now that the stadium and practice facility are done deals he could care less about winning. He hired Tannenbaum because he thought Tannenbaum could be the Billy Beane of football and find shinning stars under rocks. Well, this is football and it doesn’t work that way.
Woody Johnson is just like Leon Hess before he went senile and hired Bill Parcells. Don’t expect any big signings are much winning as long as he’s the owner.
-
ian says:
Thanks for posting.
-
SackDance99 says:
I guess the facts that the Jets will (a) most definitely, use all of their cap room up on new players and draft picks (that’s $116 million), and (b) moved up in the first round twice during Woody’s ownership (to get D-Rob and Reavis) are irrelevant to the ignorant “Woody is cheap” crowd. Woody has committed billions of dollars to the Jets–$635 million to buy the team, another $650 million for the Jets’ share of the new stadium, $75 million for the practice facility, and millions more to try to build the West Side stadium. A successful franchise that’s regularly in the playoffs playing to packed houses for up to 10 regular season and playoff games a year is a great investment….look at the valuation of the Pats franchise now. If Woody only cared about money, like the Irsays, Modells or Bidwells, the Jets would be in L.A. now.
Woody chose poorly with Harmway and it’s way too early to tell about Tangini, but cheap? Cheap was not signing Riggins to a contract when there wasn’t a salary cap or being a renter in GIANTS Stadium…thanks, Mr. Hess.
-
And, not much winning? Woody’s record in his 8 years of ownership: 5 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 1 division championship and a 62-66 record regular season record makes Woody the most successful owner in Jets history. Mr. Hess, by contrast, as sole owner of the Jets (from 1977 to 1998) saw the Jets make the playoffs only 6 times with only 7 winning seasons and only 1 division championship…the Jets were the last NFL team to never win a division championship (finally, in ’98), an utterly embarassing stat. From 1987 through 1996, the Jets did not have a winning record and made the playoffs once at 8-8. The Jets under Mr. Hess were largely dismal, under Woody only disappointing twice in ’05 and ’07.
-
How do I know what they’re doing? Have you been paying any attention at all to what they’ve been doing since they took over?
They’re building the team through the draft, the right way. Last draft they drafted two players who are going to be one the best at their position within two years. In ’06 they got rid of the mess left over from Bradway and drafted two cornerstones on the offensive line, as well as the QB of the future and some other contributors.
And as far as Mangini as a coach, I think it speaks volumes of how he still has the guys buying into his message despite a 4-12 season. And to think, the Jets were only “blown out” in two of those games. Every single game besides the Thanksgiving and the season opener game the Jets had a legitimate shot to win, which again speaks volumes on how well the team is prepared and how they still play hard even for a lost cause.
These guys know how to build a team. Herm and Bradway knew how to mooch off of Parcells’ leftovers.
Harlan, the “one big signing” was more of a statement saying the Jets will have money to spend even after extending Rhodes. If say Suggs, one of the big 3 CBs(Asomugha, Trufant, Samuel), or Gross hits the open market then the Jets will have the cash to bring one of them in as well as sign a couple of other guys. Though, the Jets do need to keep room to sign the #6 pick in the draft if we do stay there.
-
Dave…every team has draft picks!!! And every team in some form or another builds through the draft. But if you mean that this is their priority, then they would not have traded for Thomas Jones and they would not have traded their picks to move up to get Revis and Harris…they just search for talent like any other team.
Jones, Revis and Harris cost us 4 additional draft picks. Now I am not saying that the move for quality over quantity was a bad one but your example is not consistent with the argument that they are building through the draft.
To build through the draft you need a lot of draft picks and more than everything GOOD LUCK.Now if you assert that these people need no luck (they know) because they are great talent evaluators or that they have something that other football managers and coachess do not have, I do not see it and hence I do not believe it. Because if that was the case we would not have drafted Ferguson at 4th in the first round, Schlegel and Smith in the third round, Puciask in the 5th etc. Instead we would have the Bosses the Jacobs and the Bradshaws. And we would not have signed the Kimos, Barneses,Boweneses, and given million of dollars to the Brian Thomases.
So please stop telling us that you know and tell us that you wish they know what they are doing. -
Woody’s not cheap?
He’s too cheap to sign his own players. You really think it was Tannenbaum who didn’t want to give Kendall $1 million? Look at the offensive line they would have had if they would of signed Randy Thomas, Pete Kendall, Kevin Mawae and Kareem MacKenzie. They let them all go because Woody is cheap.
Woody’s a winner?
Woody inherited Parcells who built the team Woody inherited. Parcells leaves and who does Woody hire? Herm Edwards and Terry Bradway – two guys with cheap salaries and no experience in their respective jobs. Herm only one because of what Parcells built. What does Woody do next? He hires two more guys with no experience in their respective jobs and cheap salaries. Mangini (genius?) wins in his first year because they played a last place schedule. In year two they play a real schedule and they play like the Rich Kotite Jets.
I’m not saying that Hess was a good owner – he was the worst. I said he went senile when he hired Parcells. I’m just saying Woody is not much better. I’ve been a Jets fan long enough to know that.
-
kev says:
I have an issue on this site, I check it out daily and here is my beef !
Sackdance99 – please, if you are not working for Woody Johnson, please stop defending him. Guy is a joke, and many fans agree. Every time somebody writes something negative about W.J. you are all over them. I agree 1001% that it is not all his fault, but if you own something (philantrophicaly as 99% sports owners do) and are proud of it, than you should want it to be good, better, best. Nothing else should be accepted. Plus, if you own a business than you know 2 things, you don’t hand the keyes over to kids until they prove their worth,which makes them not be kids anymore,and #2 you value the importance of GOOD TOOLS (players+coaches and even stadium). Please my friend, allow us to have an opinion.
ps our record since his purchase is 62-66 in reg season. Mediocre maybe?
-
Bent says: Is that really being cheap though? I mean, they still spent the money. It might have been a bad decision to think the money could be better spent elsewhere, but they’ve still spent up to the cap limit every year.
Think about all the players the Jets have had to release over the last few years to get under the cap. If they had signed say Kareem McKenzie to a five year 30m deal, then – everything else being equal – they would have had to release even more players to free up a further 6m-worth of salary each year to get under the cap. Where would that have left us? It would have meant that either we really really sucked or forced us to restructure even more deals and have no cap space now. At least we are in a position now where we have some flexibility.
I’m not defending the owner, or his record, and I understand the desire to make a big splash, but I don’t think you can call him cheap for this reason. Maybe on the stadium or staff hires you have a point.
P.S. this year’s Jets did not play anything like the Rich Kotite Jets.
-
Buddha, the problem with your “cheap” argument is the salary cap. Not re-signing Thomas, for instance, was a mangerial decision because the Jets had committed salary elsewhere. It was an incredibly poor decision by Harmway, along with letting McKenzie go to the Giants, of all teams. Mawae was in his mid-30s coming off of an injury with a huge cap number and he refused to re-negotiate his contract. Instead, Tangini decided to replace him with a lower cost alternative: a first round center. It is very rare to see a center taken in the first round and is an indication as to how important Tangini believed the center position is. Do you really fault Tangini for drafting Mangold over keeping Mawae? Any GM would have made the same decision, or gone even lower cost by drafting a center in one of the later rounds. I suspect your criticism boils down to the simplistic “all it would’ve taken to keep Kendall was a lousy $1 million and all would be right in the world.” I’m tired of debating the wisdom or lack thereof of keeping Kendall. To me the criticism should be as to why no LG replacement was groomed. With 20-20 hindsight, a thrid round OG might’ve been smarter than drafting Schlegel.
As for cheapness in signing coaches and GMs, I think lots of owners would have been convinced to hire Herm and Bradway. Herm is likely a great interview and Bradway was a career NFL front office guy. Tannenbaum has distinguished himself as one of the NFL’s great capologists, but he is not a talent-evaluator. I suspect that he applies a CEOs approach and, so far, the Jets drafts have been excellent, as well as the way the Jets have gone from being over the salary cap to $27 million under…the perfect situation for a rebuilding team. The UFA signings have been mediocre to awful. It’s too early for me to evaluate either Tannenbaum or Mangini, but there’s been lots of good to go along with the bad. Also, Mangini was a hot coaching prospect and Woody should be commended for getting him early for the lowest possible salary. Money is a great motivator and Mangini needs to win to get an extension and big money. Would you prefer a re-tread? Did you want Ditka? Maybe Jerry Glanville?
Lastly, get your facts straight. Belichick was supposed to coach the Jets and was well-paid to be the coach-in-waiting. The Pats improperly solicited and signed BB and the Pats were penalized for their conduct. Woody’s first coach was Groh, but Parcells was leaving and Groh knew that Woody wanted his own team. My understanding was that Bradway was recommended by Parcells. Do you fault Woody for following Parcells’ advice?
Also, I remember the Kotite Jets, they were awful, not competitive, a laughingstock. The ’07 Jets were in almost every game and each game turned on 1 or 2 plays. That’s the NFL. There’s parity and a narrow margin between playoff and non-playoff teams. After the disaster that was ’05, if you told me Mangini would be 14-18 after 2 seasons with a playoff appearance, I would have told you that you were nuts. We all were over-enthusiastic after last season. That being said, I’ll be all for firing both of them if I don’t see real improvement this season.
Overall, I am optimistic both about the Tangini regime and Woody’s ownership record. But, the “cheap” criticism just has no foundation in fact. The man has spent over a billion dollars on the franchise; that’s not “cheap” in my book.
-
kev, if you did a poll today, the fans would want to run Woody out of town. I think that talk is short-sighted and contrary to the facts. Let’s put some perspective on this. If this were 1978, the same fans would have wanted to run the Maras (Giants owners) out of town. Now, after 2 Super Bowl wins and 4 overall appearances, the fans love the Maras. After last season, Woody’s record as an owner was 58-54…pretty good. Now, it’s 62-66…mediocre. Let’s see what his record is after 10 years of ownership.
I lived for three decades under Leon Hess’s reign of terror. Woody is a god compared to Mr. Hess. Plus, I will continue to post contrary entries when I read the “Woody is cheap” criticism. It just has no foundation in fact. I don’t need to work for Woody to want to respond to the injustice of such an inane comment. This comment is posted as a fact, not opinion, and I just point out contrary facts. Criticize him for poor hiring decisions. Okay, but Herm and Mangini were Lombardi and Noll compared to Winner, Holtz, Walton, Coslet and, especially, Kotite. So, the new boss is nothing like the old boss and I’ll continue to point that out until I’m banned from this site.
-
SackDance..for the record… Herm and Mangini were coaching with Parcells’ players. Martin,Pennington,Coles, Ferguson, Ellis, Abraham… not a bad group of players..eh!?
On the other side… because Woody seems more interested in his team than Hess (who was a BAD owner), it does make him BETTER than Hess but not by your arguments a Good Owner.
For a franchise which has to see the SuperBowl for almost 40 years, the Fans should and must expect better than Herm, Bradway, Tennebaum and Mangini…. I am willing to give Tangini one more year just in case they are fast learners and surprise us. -
seanmac says:
The approach to the owner and the front office/coaching staff is, frankly, ridiculous, but by no means unique. You’ll see the exact same comments with different names inserted in twenty-six different cities. It’s the offseason equivalent of fans insisting teams should always go for it on fourth down and then forgetting about it when teams do go for it and fail. It’s basically content-free and responsibility-free. Everyone wants to run out and throw lots of money around. You know who threw lots of money around last year? San Francisco. They promptly went 5-11 and demonstrated quite conclusively that they’d wasted most of the money they spent.
Tannenbaum inherited an old team from Bradway and Herm (one that they did pretty well with, incidentally), and they have set about rebuilding it properly, which is fine. But all the moaning and groaning from fans who have just witnessed the longest period of sustained success in franchise history…well, it’s a bit much.
-
Please seanmac tell us more of this sustained success. We have not put 2 wining seasons together over more than 10 years, and NO COACH has done that for us under Woody. Al Groh & Herm share the back to back. Also have we won more than 10 games over this great reinessance like sustained success period of time?
ps San Fran has a great coach, don’t they. First you get the house than you build the pool
-
Kev,
It helps when your biting retorts are factually accurate. The Jets went 10-6 in 2001 and 9-7 with a division title in 2002. If you remove the seasons when the starting quarterback has gone down for more than 50% of the season (under which circumstances the Colts, Patriots or whomever else would have tanked as well), the Jets have gone 9-7, 12-4, 8-8, 10-6, 9-7, 9-7, 10-6 and 4-12. Now go look at the team’s record from 1969-1996 and find a comparable stretch. You won’t.
As for San Francisco, how would you know if they have a good coach or not? Nolan has been a fine defensive coordinator for a long time, and he took over a 49ers team in far worse shape than the Jets. By FO’s stats, they were the least talented team in the last 12 years as they rebounded from the kind of salary cap hell that everyone here is so desperate to throw us into. So really, what would you (or I) know about Nolan’s ability?
-
Speaking of factually accurate, I understated- that should be 9-7 (02), 10-6 (04), 10-6 (06) and 4-12 (07).
-
Here’s what I consider (in no particular order) to be a “good owner.” First, the owner has to care about the season-ticket holders. Woody has tried to make the Jets fan experience at Giants Stadium as “Jets-friendly” as possible. We may all think the “Jets Flight Crew” is a little cheesy, but Woody, who walks around the parking lots and talks to the fans, has made the Giants Stadium experience a little more tolerable, in my opinion. Also, the training camp experience is great and probably will be better at the new facility. I encourage every fan to go. It’s fun and you never know who shows up (I saw Clyde Drexler there…I still don’t know why he was there). Second, any Jets owner had to do something about playing in Giants Stadium long term. Now, whatever you think about the failed West Side statdium, at least Woody tried and I do think the new stadium, where the Jets are full partners, will be the best Jets fan-friendly stadium in franchise history (although, it’s a pretty low bar). Third, the owner has to spend to the cap and care about winning. There are NFL owners who do not spend up to the cap, Woody is not that type of owner. He has not placed any monetary restrictions, like some owners, on coaching operations and he has not scrimped on practice or training facilities. Fourth, the owner can never, ever, move the team to another city. Woody is spending $650 million on the new stadium, so I don’t think that’s an issue.
Owners are not GMs or coaches. Like the Maras, Woody has placed his faith in football people to spend his money. As seanmac points out, Harmway had success, but as most fans point out, it was with Parcells’ signed and drafted players. My problem with Harmway is that they took a successful franchise and did not improve it and, in fact, made a multiple of moves that harmed the team, especially on the OL. As seanmac and I have pointed out, Mangini and Tannenbaum were handed a team in shambles. The rebuilding has yielded a 14-18 record, so far. I just think it’s short-sighted to have expected a lot more and be disappointed to the point of wanting everyone fired. The Chargers went from 8-8 in ’02 to 4-12 in ’03 to 12-4 in ’04. Firing the whole coaching staff and FO (A.J. Smith’s 1st season as GM) after ’03 would’ve been a disaster for the Chargers franchise. These things take time.
-
OK with Nolan. I guess you’ll give him time to prove himself, fine with me. Just remember that.
As for this QB theory, do you really believe that, or you just want to argue? How did Giants do when Sims went down or more recent, how did Eagles do when McNabb went down(06) and tell me about Redskins this year. And for us, wasn’t it Chad saving the season when Vinny couldn’t get out of his own way? -
You remember those instances primarily because they are exceptions to the rule. If you want to check the winning percentage for teams playing with their backup quarterback over the last five or seven years, I guarantee you it’s 30% at best. There are exceptions- when you happen to have a former Pro Bowl quarterback or a well groomed first round pick sitting on the bench, for instance- but by and large, teams lose when they have to play their backups for any length of time. It’s just how it is. The team was tremendously unlucky in 1999- they were a 14-2 roster who went 8-8 and could easily have done worse. They were unlucky in 2003 and they were really, really unlucky in 2005. Sometimes you’re unlucky. Sometimes you have a bad year, as the team did this year. You move on.
-
and if it repeats ? move on?
-
and tell me when Chad came in for Vinny, wasn’t he the back up?
-
GREENBLOOD says:
OOH Kev, so this is where it all started, huh? I guess Jets pay people to scan websites for anything negative written on them. Shame.
SEANMAC – you made me laugh with your theory. If you live in New York please pick up the phone and call any of the local radio stations and tell them that. There is 6 shows on AM radio daily, and 2 more on satelite. Please do and tell us the resulsts. I’ll handicap your joke at 1of 8 over/under. I put my money on under.
Frankly, I don’t care about the honesty. If honesty to fans means weakening our bargaining position with players and opposing teams, in fact, I want more of the close mouthed Tangini routine.
OTOH, I am sick and tired of all the looking under rocks. For the most part, all we have gotten are grubs and worms one would expect. Most of our FA additions (and resignings) have been a collection of bargain priced, overpaid, JAGs (and if you think about it, that is both hard to do and an insult). Our 2006 and 2007 FA class includes Kimo, Kenyon, Barnes, Clement (twice), Wadsworth, Hicks, Tui, Chatham, Kassell, Teague and Dyson (though he gave us one out of two decent years)
If we don’t use the cap space to sign 3 new potential all pro starters for the front 12, this team will be competing for fourth place in our division. And, this will be a competition we can win and will be favored to win.
harlan