Audible: The Linebackers for 2008
Just three years ago, Jonathan Vilma was coming into his own, and most fans would tell you that they relished the idea of him staying in a Jets uniform for many years to come. But a funny thing happened on the way to a new coach implementing his system and try as Vilma might, the press and fans started to voice concerns about his ability to play in the 3-4, which required him to take on Guards regularly. Now two full seasons in, a knee injury and a rookie tackling machine later, the situation looks different to many fans.
Harris? Vilma? Both? What will happen with Hobson? Can Bryan Thomas rebound? Will the Jets keep Eric Barton around for another season? How big a difference would a guy like Terrell Suggs or Vernon Gholston (DROOL!!!) make for this team?
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I think Barton’s time here should be up. He was great for us in ‘04 and has played well, but it’s time to go another direction. Hobson should definately be sticking around, as should Vilma. We won’t get anything equal in return for Vilma in trade value and what linebacker out there is better than Vilma? Stack the middle with him and Harris and we’ll be OK. I knew right away that the contract extension to B-Thomas was a mistake and they’re going to pay for it. My biggest fear is trading Vilma and it turning into a Randy Moss situation where we get nothing and he has another pro-bowl year.
I’m not convinced that Vilma can’t be effective in a 3-4- he’s in the same mold as Ray Lewis or D’Quell Jackson, both players who have been productive in the scheme. But he clearly can’t play effectively with this small a defensive line in front of him. So do you swap out the linemen or do you find a bigger, stouter linebacker a la David Harris? Ideally, you probably would take the first option, but I suspect the team will be forced into the second one. Vilma, quite simply, stands to make a lot more money as a MLB or WLB in a Tampa 2 scheme. He knows it and his agent knows it, which means that he is almost certain not to re-sign with the Jets, regardless of personnel changes. He’s the team’s most tradeable commodity- he has real value and, in contrast to Robertson, the team might well be better off without him in the lineup. So I expect Vilma to go elsewhere, with Indy, Tampa Bay, Detroit and Minnesota all being promising trade partners. (Honestly, I would love to see him go to the Giants in exchange for Shockey- it’s a trade that I think would work out very well for both parties. Won’t happen, though.)
I would have thought that Hobson would work well on the inside with Harris, but the team never tried it and, seeing how they tried just about every front seven combo imaginable during the second half of the season, I’m guessing they had their reasons. He’s probably gone.
The OLB spots clearly need an upgrade, with at least one top-tier pass rushing talent being mandatory. The team will undoubtedly take a run at Suggs if he hits the market, but from all accounts the Ravens are ready to slap down the franchise tag. The value just isn’t there to address the position at six, but if the Jets find a trade partner and move down into the middle of the first round, it’s a good bet they would do so with an edge rusher in mind. Otherwise, you have to figure they’ll be looking for college DEs who can convert in the early to middle rounds of the draft.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the Cowboys are shopping Bobby Carpenter, who can’t get on the field. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and if the Jets had positive scouting reports on him, you would think they might be interested in seeing if they could bring him in for cheap.
Seanmac- you generally have good points but Vilma for Shocky? Please- we don’t need that malcontent on our team! We don’t throw to Baker as it is, he has talent but due to the poor o-line we have to keep him in to block- Baker is definitely a better blocker then Shocky- can you imagine the problems both on and off the field if Shocky had to block and his numbers were way down? Kill this trade rumor now!
I don’t think the Shockey thing would happen, but I saw some tape of Shockey this year and he actually did a pretty darn good job of blocking when he was playing and healthy. Maybe what I saw was limited, but it looked pretty solid to me.
Shockey’s blocking is underrated, and the Giants have used him in that capacity quite a bit in the last two years (more than I would, at any rate). And while Baker is a nice player, there is no comparing the two of them when it comes to the way they attack a defense and force adjustment. Shockey is basically the best tight end in the league at attacking the deep and intermediate middle of the field. He’s overrated in other ways, but he would provide a completely different dimension to the offense. He’s also an acquisition that would make sense no matter who the quarterback was, as both Chad and Clemens would throw to him a lot (albeit at different points on the field). He would give the team a lot more flexibility out of a one back set, as he could be lined up at wide receiver and motioned in to give a heavy look, etc, etc. He’d add a lot of flexibility. And his attitude doesn’t bother me. The team would be better off with him than with Vilma, whose attitude is terrific. But the game is about matchups, not attitude.
The last thing we need is Shockey. And the Bobby Carpenter acquistion, I would love that one. He’s a very underrated guy who I feel he could be our James Farrior. I had no idea Dallas was shopping him, but considering he was a first round pick not so long ago his price tag will probably still be rather high.
I THINK WE SHOULD TRADE VILMA TO ARIZONA ALSO INCLUDE A DRAFT PICK TRY TO GET LARRY FITZGERALD AND SEE IF THEY WILL PART WITH GABE WATSON EVEN THOUGH I WOULD LOVE ALAN BRANCH THEY JUST DRAFTED HIM LAST SEASON IF THAT DOESNT WORK THEN TRADE VILMA TO CINCY FOR CHAD JOHNSON AND SWAP FIRST ROUNDERS WITH CINCY AND THROW IN A A SECOND ROUND SWAP AS FOR HOBSON HE IS NOT EVEN WORTH TRADING I WOULD LET HIM WALK TRY TO MAKE A RUN AT SUGGS AND WITH EITHER CINCYS PICK OR ZONAS PICK IN WHICH EVER WAY IT WORKS OUT GO GET CAILIS CAMBELL SIGN RYAN LILJA OR STACY ANDREWS THROUGH FREE AGENCY. IF YOU CANT GET SUGGS THEN IN ROUND 2 YOU DRAFT SHAWN CRABLE AND AS FOR RIGHT TACKLE YOU GO EITHER DRAFT OR SECOND TEIR FREE AGENCY. bUT I DO FEEL YOU KEEP BARTON FOR AT LEAST ONE MORE YEAR
seanmac, his attitude doesn’t bother me that much, but his injury history does. And I’m still of the opinion that Baker is just fine for us. We just need to upgrade the line so he can go out into coverage.
Left out of the conversation was David Bowens. When he finally got enough playing time later in the year, I thought he was very effective, better than B. Thomas.
random off subject question (apologies) – Bassett do you know, or have suspicions that anybody from the Jets (FO or players) reads this blog and/or comments using a pseudonym?
Just curious. Thanks
I do think a Thomas/Bowens deal at one OLb position will work. I agree with seanmac, I was surprised Hobson never played snaps in the middle but that may have been more about the rest of the personnel than Hobson himself. Two positions in this linebacking unit are in serious need of upgrading. The ILb spot next to Harris and one OLB spot. Harris is a beast and the other OLb spot is, at this point good enough. This might have been the weakest unit on the team last year. Yes, even worse than the o-line, it was just harder to conceal the o-line’s weakness.
The shockey trade sounds intriguing, I have never really thought of it. The only reason I dont like it is because he is a jackass – ever since he was pointing in the camera and laughing while his kicker missed a FG I just cant stand him. I also think his game isnt what it was a couple years ago – he isnt old but he doesnt have that nastiness he used to have when he would just bulldoze safties. The LB core is weak and needs upgrades, I have no idea where B Thomas was this year, probably spending his new money. There just weren’t any playmakers out there other than Harris. I agree Vilma is very tradeable – its just so hard to make trades in the NFL for anything other than draft picks. Any solution that adds playmakers while being able to keep some depth would work.
Take a season with both Harris and Vilma starting games. O-Lines now have to scheme at two above average LB’s, and it will allow for Vilma a little more freedom from those guards. If we can either improve the D-line or get suggs, or draft some LB talent, it will just free vilma up even more. If defenses still focus on taking vilma out of the play, he then has a randy moss effect which frees up others to make the play. Just explain to me, how you replace a Vilma this year, I don’t see it.
In no way shape or form would i want jeremy shockey a jet i feel that he does not play hard and he is a cry baby. In his defense he does make the tough catches but he drops the easy ones
LOLB: For better or worse, the Jets have Brian Thomas.
LILB: I would love for the Jets to upgrade Barton but because they have so many more pressing needs I would expect the Jets to squeeze one more year out of #50.
RILB: David Harris, god bless him.
ROLB: Hobson’s contract has expired and if the Jets had wanted him back for anything more than a bargain price they would already have signed him. So, the team needs an OLB. Suggs is a sure thing in that he’s had success in the NFL. Anyone they draft in the first round to play OLB (say, Gholston, Harvey or Groves) will be inherently risky relative to Suggs. But any of these guys would be a welcome and exciting addition to the NYJ defense.
I’d like for the Jets to bring back Hobson to backup at all the LB spots, but I guess that depends on whether he can get money elsewhere to start.
Had Vilma been healthy he’d already be gone. I wish the same fate for Chatham and Kassel.
if we can get suggs that would be great…then draft gholston…plus draft a 3rd de/olb/ilb like groves or ellis or even jackson to play the middle with harris…then we’ll have a young and very talented group of lbs…who can all rush the passer and stop the run…just my thoughts…
If not Suggs then I’d be very happy if the Jets drafted the best of Harvey, Groves, Gholston in the first round and a big DL (Sims, Bryant, Moore, Balmer, etc) in the second round.
Sorry to say it, but cut Robertson to generate more cap room to address Rhodes, CB, WR, LB depth, and the mother of all needs, the offensive line.
A 4-3 defense is the answer. Too many of our best players are out of position. I would like to keep Hobson, at the right price. I would have him as my strong-side Outside Linebacker. I would love to see Vilma come back in a big way but, I don’t think that this will be an impact year for him. If he does get healthy in time for the season, I would have him manning the weak side. If we could trade him for a number 3 or better — go for it (this draft is deep). Suggs is a pipe-dream. Calais Cambell, as our first round draft pick, is the answer. He will make whoever plays linebacker behind him a star. When the D-Line gives the opponents fits, the linebackers have the ability to do their job. Our D-Line are all out of position. Robertson, who could be a very good player, does not have the respect of most of you bloggers. Ellis, who has proved his ability, is not even talked about. Wake up Mangini, you stubborn mule.
lolol…man theres alot of things that the jets can do…and to tell you the truth…i dont think any moves they make would be wrong…we just need to many players for this system to work the way we need it to…we need a total of about 8 good starters to be brought in this offseason…at least 2 o-linemen…1 d-linemen…at least 2-3 lbs…a cb…deep threat wr…just my thoughts…
Calais Campbell is 6′8″. He’s also not a very good football player. And the team isn’t playing a 4-3- it’s time to let that one go. And not to mourn it, because without John Abraham, they would be a terrible 4-3. Scratch that, without John Abraham and Jason Ferguson, they would be a terrible 4-3. They were a bad 4-3 team in 2001, in 2002, in 2003, and in 2005. They had a nice year in 2004 and let both of the key players go after that. They don’t have the personnel to run the defense.
Heh – those two guys, abraham and ferguson, would be just what the doctor ordered for the 3-4, too (in theory, anyway). too bad Abraham is made of paper and Ferguson got old and hurt.
I ended up hating Abraham but when I loved him I really loved him.
Robertson does his job well its that he is not strong enough to hold his position at POA. You need a guy who can hold his position w/o letting them get past the LB’s. I believe our linebacker core is horrid. Is true that the ineffectiveness of the O-line and D-line really masked that weakness. I mean Hobson is as slow as dirt, Barton is past his prime and Thomas has been spending money. inside Vilma and Harris are beasts, well mostly Harris. Its a shame we havent been able to use Hobson on the inside since he can hold his own there. But in the 3-4 one MLB plays coverage and the other stays inside. We also really, I mean really need speed on defense really. Besides Rhodes, Revis, Miller, Harris and Vilma. No one else has good speed. Our OLB’s need to have speed to rush the passer and our D-line needs to bulk up considerably
Seanmac, I didn’t know that you were a professional scout. So you would pass on a 6′8″ 280lb Junior who runs a 40 in 4.85. The fact that he was on Playboy’s All-American team and All-ACC as a Sophmore, finished with 169 tackles, 38 1/2 tackles for losses, 19 sacks and six forced fumbles, means nothing huh. As a sophomore, he recorded at least one sack in seven straight games, the second-longest streak in Miami history. I guess he’s a bum.
We could get rid of all of our defensive players and start a 3-4 from scratch or we could use the players that we have (who are better suited for a 4-3) and possibly field a good team. Whether the Jets were a good or bad 4-3 team in 2001 has no bearing whatsoever.
There is no chance we’re going to a 4-3 as our base defense. Mangini is a 3-4 guy, so like it or not, that’s our defense. They will make many moves to improve the players we have. But whatever we do, let’s fix the OL first.
Simple– The Jets are a poor team because of turnover.
Hypothetical scenario: Is this team better with Jason Ferguson NT, James Farrior at LB, Bobby Hamilton at DE (Champ with the Pats),Phifer at LB, a Ware/Merriman player on the outside, among other players? Well, thats what the Jets had for thier 3-4 front before Herm came in and blew it up for a 4-3. Ware/Merriman was John Abraham, who was drafted by Parcells and would have been good/probably healthy at OLB (which he was officially listed at in 2000). So now they are going through thier second transition in the last 6-7 years, and they are feeling it.
My comment got erase cause i think I cursed.
Im sick of everyone moving players around like its nothing– REAL LIFE IS NOT MADDEN. Just becasue Hobson is big and slow does not qualify him to play MLB, nor does being small and quick qualify Vilma to play OLB. It just doesnt work that way.
Harvlis LOL a DE running a 4.85 40 has terrible speed. I believe Dewayne Robertson is faster than that. The fact of the matter is Calais Campbell has great size and looked very promising esp after his junior year, but his senior year was disappointing. I never saw him get to the QB when being blocked by 1 O-lineman. Sure he has a lot of upside, but he isn’t there yet, and there’s a chance he never will be. That’s why he’s considered a late 1st early 2nd right now
Vbsiena, Calais has run a 4.8 40. There are draft sites that think he can run 4.7 (and will do so in the combine). Wide receivers run 4.4 – 4.6 so 4.8 is no problem for a DE. Robertson has run 4.85. Campbell is a 4-3 DE. If we would wise up and go in that direction, he would be worth a shot. He is coming out, after his Junior year, check your facts. In his Sophmore year, he was a monster. His Junior year, he faced many double teams. He was still a very disruptive force, although his sacks went from 10.5 to 6. His family is full of football players. He has great hands and mobility, as he played basketball and tight end, in the past.
Most mock drafts have us taking Gholston. Hopefully, he works out for us. Watch Campbell, he has all the tools.
No matter what happens the Jets are going to have atleast 3 starters from last year return. They wont resign hobson, but Bryan Thomas is definetely back at OLB, Harris is definitely back, as well as Barton. And if they dont trade Vilma, that makes four. I think the jets will aim at improving their depth at the LB position. They could also draft Gholston or Chris Long who both would play a combination of DE/OLB. The jets wont be able to land Suggs, and I think the cardinals will keep Dansby. I could see the Jets signing Calvin Pace, but other than a guy like that, I can’t see the Jets adding too many LB’s this offseason. Thats what I think, that do you guys think?
anthony your right…i’ve said this to my friends…when parcells came in the transsition was easy for theplayers we had…they could have played either 3-4/4-3 deffense…but when loser herm came in he got rid of alot of players to go to this tampa 2 style deffense that requires small fast lbs…so to change back to a 3-4 will take alot longer than alot of people ecpected…
I think a trade with Vilma and Chad Johnson as the main components makes sense for both teams, a rarity in fan trade speculation. The Bengals just hired the Ravens linebackers coach, and they still have a need for high-character players. Johnson is kind of a chump if you ask me, but he is good value for Vilma, and might be obtainable.