This from a Rocky Mountain News reporter who’s in Indy and has an inkling that Denver is looking for a 4-3 Defensive Tackle. With a young one on the Jets roster that was highly graded out of school, a surging backup and some good prospects in the draft, could the Jets be getting ready to move Robertson to Denver?
With free agency thin at defensive tackle, the Broncos have expressed an interest in acquiring Detroit’s talented but enigmatic Shaun Rogers, who’s on the trade block. But one other name to watch via that route is the New York Jets’
Dewayne Robertson, who is only 26 years old and five years removed from being a top-10 pick.
Robertson has a balky contract that includes a high base salary and cap figure in excess of $11 million that will need restructuring if he’s ultimately dealt.
But the feelers the Jets are putting out at the combine to gauge the market, which certainly has piqued the Broncos’ interest, has more to do with the defensive tackle’s lack of a fit within New York’s 3-4 scheme than finances.
Robinson (sic) is regarded as a high-character performer and would be a solid acquisition as an experienced player in his prime at a need position with Denver.
He is a higher character player than Rogers, takes to his coaching and has added and lost weight at the will of the staff. He’s a guy who would work well in a 4-3 and Denver has a history of taking on castoffs from other teams (see their acquistion of the Cleveland line a few years ago). Should be interesting to see if this has legs. My guess is the Jets are trying to float Robertson’s availability as well.
for a #4 overall who could still be a pro-bowl type player in the right system… a first round pick back. nothing less. and if its lower than 15 or so, i’d want more than that, like a 5th rounder to use to trade up if necessary. d’line does not grow on trees.
wonder how his knee issues would play into trade negotiations?
still not real exited a/b the possiblity of moving vilma for rogers straight up. i realy liked the idea of roy williams, but i guess there is 0% chance DET trades him.
it would be great to trade robertson if it gets that $11 million cap off our hands…just my thoughts…
Does Denver have anyone to trade or are we just looking at draft picks? To be honest if the Jets traded Robertson and Vilma for a stockpile of draft picks that would not bother me. Possibly a second and later round (4-6) for each. I have always liked second rounders – many have first round talent but fell for some reason (bad workout etc..) and you dont have to pay them first round money. Low risk high reward sittuation.
I think we should trade both D-Rob and Vilma. Don’t get me wrong, they are good players and citizens, but they aren’t pro-bowlers. Even when Herm was around and we had both of these guys at full strength we still couldn’t stop the run or sack the quarterback. I doubt we could be a first rounder for either of the two as they are damaged goods now. However, getting some draft picks and clearing up the cap space could be the right move to get more players that fit the current system.
Dwayne for Jevon Walker…straight up
I’ don’t think the Jets could get a first back, but I could see Robertson go for a 2nd and 4th or a 2nd this year and a pick next year.
Vilma and D-Rob are both talented players who offer excellent value to a team that plays the 4-3, both are good fits for that system, and not good fits for the 3-4 jets any longer. We should trade them both now for whatever we can get, both are of little use to this team as long as we play a 3-4, and their value is only going to go down if they stay here. With Roberstons chronic knee issues and hefty contract I doubt we can get a 1st round pick for him, its not like he was a pro bowler. I like the Javon Walker for D-Rob trade, not sure if it would be straight up but it definitely fills the need of a big WR that can stretch the field. I don’t mind the idea of loading up on 2nd and/or 3rd round picks for these guys either, the team had alot of holes and getting some more help in these rounds would be nice.
2nd or 3rd round picks? get what you can get??
i have to pose this question: do people think this team needs to be blown up and start over again? they blew a numebr of leads, had a horrible 1st half defense and no offense line.
i see them more of a .500 mediocre team that needs help at a few spots to be competitive (for a playoff spot) again next year.
i think it’s really more of tweaking than an overhaul. i’d expect the first 2 picks to contribute immediately and hopefully a couple of FA’s. i can see selling vilma at a discount, but not robertson.
I agree Stevie K. I don’t think the team needs to be blown up. They are a few key contributors and extra bodies away from flipping the record. If you traded Vilma for Rogers and moved DRob to DE, you have a very strong DL rotatation, draft a LB high enough (Gholston) and if they do secure Samuels, then that is a defense I would be thrilled with next year. Add a veteran and draft for the OL at G and T and you will see a big improvement in the record. However, I think the FO and Mangini are smart for putting feelers out to see what they can get, as they want a team that they built in order to support their strategy.
No need to overhaul the roster, since we’ve been in the process of doing it for two years now.
Theoretically, if the Jets pull of the Vilma/Rogers deal and sign Asante they are basically a pass rush away from having a legitimate 3-4 defense. Drafting a pass rusher and college DT’s to play DE in our scheme for depth purposes would greatly benefit the team.
Offensively, the Jets are 2 lineman away from finding out if Clemens is the answer and if we have the playmakers necessary to be taken seriously.
Now, if the Jets don’t trade for Rogers, don’t sign Asante and go into preseason with a roster resembling the one we have now, then we’re all in for another long season of terrible football.
Yes, that would make them a better team next year, but Robertson most likely does not want to play the 3-4 and will leave. Rogers does not have much of a motor and I wonder if he would be motivated wherever he is. As long as he’s getting paid I think he’s the kind of guy who will let up. I’d rather the Jets take the picks and be a better team 2-3 years from now. When they might be able to compete for more than just a first round exit from the playoffs.
Stevie K and David I, sorry to offend you with the 2nd or 3rd round pick talk for Vilma and D-Rob, but the reality is that is what they are worth at this point. I don’t mind the idea of moving D-Rob to DE, he is definitely better suited to play there than DT, but this is still a two gap system, and he would still have run stopping responsibilities, which he has not shown an aptitude for thus far.
As far as not liking getting a 2nd or 3rd rounder for these guys, I was saying take what we can get NOW as opposed to waiting until next year when Vilma will walk as a free agent and D-Rob’s value will have dropped some more playing out of position in this 3-4. If you don’t like getting a 3rd rounder for Vilma then why are you ok with trading him for Shaun Rogers, a player who is rumored to be cut if he isn’t traded, with a questionable motor and poor work habits? I think I’d rather have a 2nd or 3rd rounder than him.
Whats with all this “blow up the team” talk, because I advocated trading Vilma and D-Rob? These are players that clearly don’t fit this defense so why keep them, because you don’t want to take lesser value for former 1st round picks from a prior regime? Wake up and smell the scheme, its a 3-4 and they need to be replaced, thankfully Vilma’s replacement is already here in the form of David Harris, and maybe Puoha is ready to take over for D-Rob, but lets get something for these guys while we can and move on.
Everyone loves to throw around the “3-4″ term, but Tannenbaum and Mangini both insist it’sa hybrid scheme that plays as much 4-3 as 3-4. Can any stat guys verify or debunk that? I understand that it’s irrelevant if the team isn’t playing good, but the D really cam around after the bye. Also, guys like Greg Buttle constantly say that D-Rob is doing a good job. I’d like to see what D-Rob can do when he’s not playing so out of position.
sec108…I am opposed to so many changes, as change increases risk…getting draft picks for both players exponentially increases that risk…putting all that risk in the draft is a huge gamble…I would rather not take that bet. However, I would take a pro-bowl caliber player who needs his fat ass motivated a bit before betting on the complete unknown in the draft.
Muff – draft daddy was reporting that Detroit would in fact move Williams for a second rounder.
NYC – Yes, it is a hybrid scheme and they did play exclusively 4-3 at times over the last few years. They also lined the NT up not directly opposite the center at times and had pre-snap shifts, which meant they could operate as a 4 man front despite initially lining up in a 3-4 (and vice versa).
BT can come up to the line to make a 4 man front with Coleman and Robertson inside or alternatively they often rotate in Pouha to team with Robertson inside. Clearly, it’s still a work in progress, but it’s a lot harder to have 4-3 as your base and maintain the same versatility. We wouldn’t get any more pass rush from Ellis and Thomas as 4-3 DEs and 4-3 ends can be the most expensive position to upgrade.
Buttle says that Robertson is doing a good job because he does a good job. Ultimately though (maybe this year, maybe next year), the Jets will probably look for someone cheaper to draw double teams and stand up at the point of attack and Robertson will find a home where he can have a greater impact. It won’t be at DE though, he’s too short.
sec 108,
i wasn’t really referring to anything you said with the blow up the team question. that was more to the general tenor of comments that he sucks, this guy sucks and on and on.
i agree that vilma has diminished value, more knee than scheme. i dont think that applies to robertson. i think personnel guys around the league know what kind of player he is. we can disagree there.
letting robertson go for a 2 and vilma for a 3 doesn’t make a lot of sense to me right now. granted a #2 should be someone who can contribute right away and a #3 as more of a crap shoot. vilma for a #2 makes sense.
depth at lb does not hurt, and something this team doesn’t have, especially as it sounds like hobson won’t be resigned and barton is mediocre. unless vilma is going to moan and be disruptive, they still need to have 3 decent ilb.
and robertson can always be franchised. thats why the 5 year deal for revis was such a sticking point. tannenbaum has always tried to stagger contracts so they’re not looking at multiple key FA’s in any given year and he can franchise anyone he’d like. they would be dealing robertson from strength, not from weakness. they don’t have to move him by any stretch.
I agree with most of that, but I think the internet would break down if Robertson were to be franchised.
OFFTOPIC: Peter King had a quick note about the jets in hit MMQB:
10. Other quickie free-agent tidbits I hear: The Jets will go after 31-year-old Pittsburgh guard Alan Faneca, but not after former Eric Mangini pupil Asante Samuel …
King gets paid lots of money and I dont read him that much but figured I would share what he was saying. He also was saying Philly could be the front runner for Samuel (5 years 55M) and that it would be a mistake for them to pay for him because he is a finesse corner and called him out for his superbowl play.
At this point I dont know what to think – who would be more beneficial – Faneca or Samuel – neither seems like a sure thing right now.
Rogers seems pretty far down on the list of guys Tangini would add to the roster. As for the 3-4 vs 4-3 debate, that’s more of a smoke screen from Mangini, the 3-4 inherently gives you the hybrid option and makes your defense more fluid in its fronts and looks. A 3-4 lets you play 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 2-5, 1-6… all things we’ve seen from the Jets in the past 2 years. It lets you mask your pressure and provides flexibility in matching offensive personnel. When they say they play the 4-3 they mean they consider one of their OLBs to be a DE on a given play. Regardless, the demands are simple and consistent for any team employing a ‘hybrid’ 3-4, you need a monster bull on at the nose and big linebackers. Anyway you slice it, D-Rob is undersized for a NT and Vilma is the size of a safety. If the Jets trade them both to 4-3 teams this year, you could see them in Hawaii next February, but they won’t be there if they’re still wearing green and white. And they’re not going to fetch 1st round picks. If you could get two first day picks or a two and some change I’d take it in a heartbeat, you can find space eaters and middle linebackers down in the draft.
bent –
according to john clayton yesterday, williams is most likely not going anywhere, but i like your version alot more.
and, according to peter king today, becasue he was quoted ealier today on this site, but on the newest vilma thread – Shaun Rogers could probably be had for a 4th rounder, which should eliminate vilma staright up.
i’m not opposed to moving anyone or everyone as long as it makes sense and serves a purpose, but how much more productivity are we going to get from rogers vs. D rob?
my bad, mbi quoted PK on this thread to
Just a thought, but wouldn’t it make more sense to try to guess what the Jets will do that what WE would do? We certainly get enough clues from the press to make calculated guesses and evaluate the likelihood of any one of them happening. This “I’d throw the bums out” just isn’t happening.
I’m not convinced we have to move D-Rob the way I feel we have to move Vilma – J-Vil has no real position in our defense, while D-Rob can be adequate rotating between DT and DE depending on down and yardage. But if we’re going to make a move on D-Rob, I’m much, much more interested in trading him for picks than for Shaun Rogers. This is an incredibly deep draft at a number of positions, and I think rounds 2-4 can be a gold mine. Get a couple of extra picks in that area and I’m thrilled.
DavidI, I understand your trepidation, but I don’t think this constitutes a major overhaul, Vilma is already a goner, when the team tells him he can go find a new team that is a pretty strong sign, I agree we need depth at ILB, but Vilma has proven ill suited for this, we can find someone else to play next to Harris, if Barton stays another year he is servicable, and essentially this change was made after Vilma went down and Harris took over – coincidentally coinciding with an improvement in the defense – so I wouldn’t count replacing Vilma as a change for this coming season.
As for D-Rob, I am by no means saying he sucks, get rid of him, far from it, I admire the way he plays and he has definitely given his all to this team since being drafted so high. By no means do I consider him a bust either, but he is now being asked to do something (occupy blockers and take up space in the middle) that he is ill suited for, his strength lies in beating linemen one on one with his quickness and getting into the backfield to disrupt plays. I think for this defense to succeed we need the big run stuffing nose tackle that lets the LBs make plays behind him, this is not D-Rob. I don’t think the Jets will just give him away either, they are floating his name to see what the market will bear, if its to their liking (which I think should be at least a 2nd and a 4th or 5th) then they will likely pull the trigger. This defense was bad against the run the last 2 years, D-Rob and Vilma were a big part of that, I think we need to get good value for them and move on personally.
Whether or not the Jets trade Vilma and/or D-Rob, I still think they need to address the same positions for the draft. The DL is weak whether you think it’s due to DE or NT play and the pass-rush from OLB has been pathetic. Based on who I think we expect to be available then, Gholston appears to be the best fit at #6 (this will also be the toughest spot to move around in). This leaves the DL and OL to be addressed later on. Thus, I think they should target an OT in the second and Harrison/Rubin/Okam in the third. These players would possibly provide significant upgrades at areas of great need.
This FO has shown in the last two years that they target players and then do what they need to do to move around and acquire them. Thus, can we be better served by keeping Vilma (a bad fit) and D-Rob (another bad fit) around or by trading them and getting the picks/pieces necessary to target guys who can help out in the 3-4 scheme that Mangini chooses to run.
If Detroit is serious about shopping Williams for a second rounder, I imagine they would seriously consider a trade straight up for Vilma. There are no 4-3 MLB prospects in this draft that come close to matching Vilma’s ability.
sec108…I guess the language is getting us caught up…I don’t think trading two guys is a major overhaul, but when you add these two moves, with the possible loss of Hobson and possibly picking up a new corner, along with the possible drafting of Gholston, you are talking about 5 new guys or almost half the defense being new…that sounds like a major overhaul…in either case, I look forward to the end of the week, when FA starts! Have a good one.
DROB is better off with Herm in KC.
Mangini is to the 3-4 as Herm was to keeping his yapper shut.
NOT VERY GOOD AT IT!
MBI — Peter King is a GREAT FICTIONAL WRITER!
If you can trade DRob to Denver for Walker and Vilma to Detroit for Rogers and a pick, I would do it in a heart beat. And it IS NOT Blowing up the team. Actually it is called improving the team!
50 posts and not one bemoaning the mistake Tangini made not trading DeWayne or Vilma last year before their play (and Vilma’s injury) devalued them.
You guys are too kind.
Of all the F-ups by our FO (all the JAGs, not spending to our cap last year, the Bryan Thomas contract, etc.), not seeing what some of us saw and getting full value is the most egregious error.
Assessing talent and value is job one for a FO. Unless we get #1s or more for these guys, this FO really screwed the pooch.
harlan
I agree the FO should have traded both Robertson and Vilma last year. But I wouldn’t hold out for a #1 either.
Many GM’s didn’t think Vilma was even a first rounder coming out of Miami due to his size and build. And certainly not one FO in the league would rate D-Rob a #4 in retrospect. I’d guess most would rate him a mid second rounder.
Take what you can get. No point worrying what you screwed up in the past, just make the corrections as quickly as possible. There are a lot of varying opinions on Robertson’s play but does anyone truly believe he’s 10 million dollars better than Pohua?
Take Javon Walker – PLEASE! Anything we get for this overpaid slacker would be an improvement.
if we can get 2 second round picks for vilma and drob…we’ll be in position to draft 2 pass rushers a NT and a RT…and hopefully they pick up the 3-4 quickly and maybe we’ll have a good deffense in 08…but thats also alot of wishful thinking on my part…
Hind site is 20-20. Weren’t we all thrilled with DRob and Vilma. Both are good players. Both were kinda doomed with a change to a 3-4. Vilma was small for a 4-3…just fast.
Their value is to a team with a tampa “2″ 4-3. We don’t really know the market value just yet. Whatever the “market will bear” we should take…after all, the past picks are just “sunk costs” …ya ain’t gettin’ it back.
Asking D Rob to go to end? maybe…maybe a square peg in a round hole, too. I’d think the coaching staff probably knows the answer to that one, and I’m guessing its not yes.
As far as a defensive overhaul…why not? Harris and Revis were great picks. does anyone else come to untouchable? We had solid performances from some players on occassions, but never schematic consistency…someone was invariably breaking down, creating opportunity for the bad guys.
Williams from Detroit? or Jevon Walker? humphhh….build from the inside out. Solidify the lines and linebackers first, then add the skills spots. We need studs that can move people out. Anybody see any devastating run blocking in 2007? Not me. Anybody see ateam that had trouble running against us? Not me. Start in the trenches until you get it right. 8 -8 would be a great year for us. We’re more than a tweak or two away. And I would shy away from older free agents. Kimo V. O. sounded like a great pickup, right? Pittsburgh didn’t keep him. Maybe they know a bit more than we do about Faneca, too.
Bite the bullett…build with new guys that can be Mangini’s guys, and let go of 2006, which was an aberration.