Buzz: Vilma in Detroit for Physical
Posted on February 27th, 2008 by Bassett
According to a post just made on the Detroit Free Press, Mr. Vilma is in Mo-Town:
Jets linebacker Jonathan Vilma was in the Detroit area Wednesday for a physical as the Lions explored a potential trade, according to a source.
The Lions are looking for an upgrade at middle linebacker and are listening to trade offers for defensive tackle Shaun Rogers.
So … Vilma to Detroit, Rogers to New York? It’s that or a third round pick at this point it seems …
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Detroit is also rumored to be shopping the disgruntled Roy Williams, I’d rather get him back in this deal than Shaun Rogers.
Agreed with sec108 even if it meant throwing in a 4th round pick of our own. Vilma + 4th round for R Williams = $$
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I’d take Shaun Rogers for Vilma in a minute, in spite of the fact that Rogers is a decidedly un-Mangini like player. Jets core values are great but massive, run-gobbling nose tackles are hard to come by and essential for the defense Mangini runs. It would give him the opportunity to get the rest of the D to really buy into the system, improving every other unit. Even if he only gets 8-10 solid games out of him. Pohua is improving and could pick up the slack. Depending on his contract, the plusses outweigh the minuses. Particularly because it makes Robertson’s $10 million salary expendable.
This could put us in a situtation simliar to the Texans-Schuab-Carr incident. Lets assume the proposed trade is Vilma for Rodgers. If we land Rodgers before we get rid of Robertson, we’re not going to get anything in return for him because the entire league knows he’s being shopped. Just my 2…
J Roc,
I don’t agree. If we take an assumption that the Jets can afford both under the salary cap. We don’t have to trade Robertson, but instead use him as has been rumored in multiple position sets. Thus providing us with added depth and flexibility.
Which is different from Vilma, in that he just doesn’t fit into the scheme and is not versatile enough to play other positions.
subwayfare = smart
Shaun Rogers is a plenty good player. And if we can get him for an MLB w/ a knee injury we should be happy. I think its hilarious that every Jets fan is an instant Shaun Rogers expert and is regurgitating the same media BS about “taking plays off” etc. Here’s something to consider: nobody likes to play for Detroit, because they don’t win and they don’t get any better. Here’s a quote from some newly-minted Rogers experts in Denver.
“Think about it – has he gotten any better since his first Pro Bowl season three years ago?”
Ha Ha. You’ve got me there. He made another Pro Bowl, too, but I don’t know if he got better. I guess if we got him we would be stuck with an NT who is *only* of 2-time Pro Bowl quality. The Jets by most accounts stayed together during a crap season last year. We should consider that a strength and leverage against it by bringing in some talented players who’s only problem is they didn’t like playing for their last crappy team. Rogers is a perfect example of what we should be gambling on.
Mike,
That would make more sense if DRob:
1) Didn’t have an $11 million cap hit
2) Wasn’t entering the last or one of the last seasons in his contract
3) Had the physical presence to play DE
4) Had more than 14 sacks in his career
If we get Rodgers, he’s the starting NT, who needs a $11 million backup “for depth”
The Jets are well under the cap (around $30 mill including the refunded camp bonus from Elam) that includes Robertson’s contract. There’s no need to get rid of Robertson because he makes a lot of money if the Jets don’t or can’t spend the money somewhere else.
Assuming they are spending $8mill+ to get Faneca and $5mil+ to get Rogers, I don’t see any harm in keeping Robertson unless a good deal comes along.
Would the Jets want to py $11mill for a back of DT, of course not. But trading him simply because he makes so much money doesn’t make sense.
Keep both. They’re decent players and their draft picks outside of Harris and Revis have been brutal.
I have a hard time believing that Mangini and his pathetic defense will be vastly improved next year by overhauling the defensive line and linebacking corps.
Get rid of Bradway.
Move back to NY.
Send Mangini back to NE with his tail between his legs.
Bring Vinny out of retirement.
Life would be great.
Would anyone really rather have a 3rd rounder instead of Rogers? Many third rounders end up being good players but Rogers has the ability to be a great fit for this defense, what its been missing since mangini got here. In reference to Robertson, I dont think this diminishes his value, the jets dont have to get rid of him, he can play DE and the Jets also play a lot of 4-3 where he is obviously useful, and lets not forget he would be good to take over for Rogers on 3rd downs at the nose. Do I want to pay that much money for a guy who wont have a true position? No, but that doesnt mean I think we should give him away for .50 cents on the dollar. Free agency is going to be fun.
i agree with sub…i think rogers will be a perfect fit for the jets and their rotation with pouah…we need him…just my thoughts…
Undersized MLB in wrong system coming off an injury for a giant fat ass who can fall down in the hole and clock the middle if he is so tired and needs to take a play off which forces a team to run to the outside instead of right up the middle over an undersized NT that can be moved to the end..I’ll take that trade every day of the week!!!
I like this trade as it would give the JETS someone who can clog up the middle and significantly improve the JETS run D. As to DRob, the rumors are he is headed to Denver for WR Walker. A trade I also like. Let’s see if the JETS can pull off both trades + sign a FA Guard and CB. A quality FA OT would be a big plus. Then we can go into the draft looking for a young OT and a pass rushing LB.
I know its stretching it a little but why cant we trade bothe d rob and vilma to detroit and get roy williams, s rogers and maybe throw in some mid to late round picks and just move on to be honest i mean there are other players out there you can trade for with ither teams..
But in the event the start trade talks and we can unload one and get one i’ll take vilma for roy williams just due to the fact he has always put up solid numbers even though he never had a true gunslinger to toss him the ball and i think he would help the development of Kellen clemens. You can always make another move for a true nose tackle from other teams.
wow…not to long ago it seemed alot of fans wouldn’t have taken this trade…all the talk of he takes plays off and yadayada…now every1 seems up for it…i would like to know what changed every1’s mind…and if this trade doesn’t fall through…i would want to draft okam…he’s another guy who would fit perfectly with the jets rotation with pouah…just my thoughts…
I like that idea Junior. I would also be willing to trade Vilma and a 2nd rounder for WIlliams and Rogers. That would allow us to trade Coles as well. None of this will ever happen because trades don’t happen like this in the NFL. How great would it be if we could get Williams and Rogers, plus sign Faneca and Samuals. I know, I’m dillusional.
Robertson, Vilma and pick (4th?) for Rogers and Williams.
I posted in a different thread that I had heard Rogers might be traded to Denver. If this is true, then the Vilma trade to Detroit would likely be for picks or for Roy Williams. I think Rogers might be an upgrade on the d-line, but he doesn’t play hard all the time and and may not be the best fit for this Jets defense. If the Jets do not get Rogers from Detroit, I still think it’s possible to trade Robertson for picks as long as he’s willing to restructure (although I think it’s unlikely because he stands to make a ton of money this year and will probably demand a good price on the open market next year for a 4-3 team). If the Jets can draft a NT prospect like Harrison or Rubin, I think they will be fine. If the coaching staff feels that Pouha can play the NT position, then why trade Vilma for a guy who will only play 50-60% of the snaps. I’d rather get the play-maker this offense sorely needs.
Okam? No way he’s a bum with a terrible work ethic and came to the combine out of shape. Why would the Jets want that? Antyba Rubin is the DT they should draft if they want a DT.
By FO’s stats, the Jets were 30th in the league against the run. Detroit was 27th. The Jets gave up 4.52 yards per carry on runs between the guards. Detroit gave up 5.09 yards per carry on runs between the guards. Lest anyone thinks this is a fluke, last year the Jets gave up 4.61 yards per carry on middle runs; Detroit gave up 4.60. So with Shaun Rogers in the middle of the Detroit defense, the Lions were worse at defending interior runs than the Jets were with D-Rob.
It’s a move that makes some sense, but people shouldn’t blow things out of proportion.
seanmac…good point, but they had poor ILB support, which is why they are looking for a MLB…stats don’t account for everything.
Any draft pick is a crap shoot. That is painfully obvious as a life long Jets fan. Rogers is fat and lazy. You will find few people to argue that point. I will take a potentially dominant player who may only need some motivation, but who will absolutely need to be accounted for on defense over an unproven rookie. And if it only costs us a player who will never be in the Jets long term plan who cares.
As for D-Rob. Unless we can get Walker from the Brioncos (and if someone could post a link to that rumor I would appreciate it) let him see if he can slim down and play end or let him come in on passing downs to back up Rogers. Just a thought.
D-Rob probably has more trade value than Vilma. Just look how terrible the DT free agent crop is. So whether or not they trade Vilma for Rogers, a restructured Robertson can bring back some loot.
we have to get rid of every1 who doesn’t fit in this deffensive system and who isn’t a mangini guy……that includes bryan the bust thomas and shawn ellis…bring in mangini guys…start fresh with new blood…wether its through free angency or the draft…it will take this year and next but this will work…and we wont have no cry babys on the team…same goes for offense…if coles is gonna be a problem…get rid of him now…and bring in a kid who’s hungry…just my thoughts…
ps: im tired of losing and rebuilding everytime some new coach comes in…keep mangini another 2-3 years until he’s finished building this team the loser edwards killed…then we’ll see where are team ranks in the nfl…given tangini the time to do what they’re here to do…just my thoughts…
seanmac –
While I greatly appreciate your measured, unhysterical, stat-backed approach on these boards, I think there are just too many variables (the ten other players, scheme, coaching etc.,) to compare the ‘against the run’ stats based on one player on each team.
Having said that, I’m not going to say that the exchange of Vilma for Rogers is going to transform the Jets D into the 85 Bears. I just think that Rogers has better physical attributes for the system and paying D-Rob $10 million dollars for a job he was never cut out for and doesn’t like isn’t particularly good business.
Dug these numbers up on Rogers’ contract. Assuming they’re correct, even if the ‘against the run’ numbers hold up when every other variable is factored in, you’re getting the same results for half the money. 2008: $4.25 million (+ $1 million roster bonus due 3/2), 2009: $5.25 million, 2010: $7 million.
Seanmac, those stats dont mean anything.
subway- I don’t disagree. I’m certainly not suggesting that the numbers are in any way definitive, just that it’s dangerous to assume that Shaun Rogers is going to come in and transform the defense. When you look at how ALY numbers break down according to run direction, you can see the influence of dominant interior linemen. Minnesota can be run on to the outside- they’re 17th in the league in runs off left tackle, 18th in runs off right tackle, but when you try to run inside against the Williams duo, they only give up 2.89 yards a carry, best in the league. Washington and Green Bay have similar breakdowns- dominant on the inside, poor on the edges. Even with Patrick Willis, San Francisco was a disaster on interior runs, but they held up okay on the outside. Houston was in the bottom third of the league everywhere except for runs behind right tackle-i.e. where Mario Williams happens to line up. You don’t want to overstate, but you can see the impact of particular individuals in the ALY numbers. Detroit is 20th in the league in runs off left tackle, 19th in runs off right tackle, and 32nd by a large margin in runs up the middle. Either Detroit was a disaster at MLB (certainly possible, and one reason why they’d be keen on Vilma) or the defensive tackle who has a reputation for dogging it was dogging it. You’d certainly think the latter when you look back two years ago and see that the Lions in 2005 were 28th off left tackle, 16th off right tackle and 5th defending runs up the middle. Detroit didn’t have any better linebackers two years ago. So hopefully that’s the Shaun Rogers that shows up, but people should remember that the Lions are trying to move him for a reason, and that reason is how he’s played the last two seasons.
Seanmac,
Is FO your full time job? Did you always take such a statistical look at the game? Just wondering how you got into all this analysis….
Why is Tangini so set on a 3-4 scheme. We have the personnel for a 4-3. Vilma and Harris could alternate ilb and olb. draft sedrick ellis or a glen dorsey and wham, there we go.
because he’s from the parcells-belicheat tree he cut his teeth learning the 3-4.
The Jets still run a 3-4 and the Jets only have 1 productive LB in a defense geared around LBs making plays. Rogers may or may not be an upgrade over D-Rob, Pouha, Moseley, but I just don’t think that move really improves the defense; the Jets would still need 3 LBs. Getting Roy Williams is a different story. He’s tall (6-3) and fast. He vastly improves the Jets WR corps and gives them something the offense doesn’t have: a tall deep threat. Also, it makes LC expendable. The Jets WR corps gets younger and much better. Plus, Williams is a Permian Panther, the Jets could use some Mojo.
The ‘05 numbers show that Rogers at least has the potential to dominate. Has he just gotten irreparably fat and lazy, never to repeat his success again? Can’t rule it out. He wouldn’t be the first or last NFL player to succumb to the good life off the field and neglect his responsibilities on it. To paraphrase Fitzgerald: “To the spoils go the victor…”
I just figure it’s worth a shot considering no one seems to succeed in Detroit, he might respond to a change of scenery and he’s young. I’m not nearly as convinced as many people about Robertson’s desire and effort but, whatever the case, his results don’t warrant his salary.
Assuming he’s not seeking a new deal with big guarantees, I think Rogers, for half the price, at the very least works better as a hold the fort guy while the hunt for the next Jamal Williams continues.
roy williams would be great for us. but why exactly would the lions trade their single best player for a guy coming off a knee injury of unknown severity?
Matt-
One argument for the 3-4, once the right personnel can be obtained, is that it’s more flexible and easier to disguise. Another is that it’s cheaper to maintain over time and therefore can produce more consistent success under salary cap restraints. The Giants success this year will certainly cause some people to question that philosophy but there’s no doubt that 4-3 ends are very expensive
One thing that people seem to conveniently forget when decrying the potential loss of Vilma and D-Rob and calling for the restoration of the 4-3 is the fact that Donnie Henderson once defended Vilma in that scheme by saying that if he had a defensive tackle that could keep O-lineman off him he’d be a star. Is the problem Vilma’s tackling or D-Rob’s failure to tie up blockers? What if it’s a little of both?
Sack-
Don’t get me wrong, I’d happily take Roy Williams if he were offered, though I don’t know what his contract situation is.
Williams’ rookie deal expires in 2009, since most NFL contracts are front-loaded, with the bonuses spread out, he probably has a decent cap number. Plus, he’s been rumored to be traded all over the place, so I take it that his contract can’t be that bad. Most teams would get him and renegotiate (and extend) his deal.
Roy Williams is looking for $30 million in guaranteed money, which is why the Lions are considering moving him in the first place. They already have huge dollars tied up in Calvin Johnson, and they have two more quality receivers in Furrey and Macdonald, so while I’m sure they would rather keep Williams, they are at least going to see what the alternatives are to paying him a mint. But I’ll be surprised if the Lions trade him at the end of the day, and they certainly aren’t going to do so for Jonathan Vilma.
Dros- No, I’m not employed full time by FO. I came to them because I was impressed by the things their stats picked up- I think the concepts are quite sound and that they do a far better job of describing what goes on on the field than traditional stats. I look at other people’s stuff, too, most notably KC Joyner, who is very good with his passing game breakdowns (not so much with his running game stuff).
Hutchinson seems to be hinting Kris Jenkins for Vilma talks may be even farther along than the Rogers scenario.
http://www.nj.com/jets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1204177032113690.xml&coll=1
I like that even better.
I’m both amused and perplexed that everyone wants to move JONATHAN VILMA! One of the best to ever don a Jets uniform in the last 5 years.
Because he has trade value? Because he’s out of place in the 3-4?
WHO EXACTLY KICKS ASS IN THIS DEFENSE?
(Don’t put Harris in Canton just yet)
Time to watch Pearl kick Will Ferrells ass on FunnyOrDie.com
Another interesting potential twist as repoted by ProFootballTalk:
As the 2008 league year quickly approaches, there’s talk of a possible three-way trade.
We’re told that the Jets, Lions, and Broncos are talking about a deal that would send Detroit defensive tackle Shaun Rogers to New York, Jets defensive tackle Dewayne Robertson to the Broncos, and Denver cornerback Dominique Foxworth and a second-round pick to the Lions.
The Lions also are looking at a trade for Jets linebacker Jonathan Vilma.
http://beta.profootballtalk.com/2008/02/28/menage-a-trade-in-the-works/
if thats true of a 3 way trade then maybe we can trade vilma for roy williams…which will make coles think twice about not accepting what tangini offered him…just my thoughts…
another possibility could be Vilma for the second rounder they get from Denver….
The Star Ledger is reporting that the JETS are in talks with the Panthers for Kris Jenkins and the Lions for Shaun Rogers. Either would be good choices for our NT. Vilma is mentioned in both trades although there is also interest in Robertson.
I think Jenkins and Rogers are beasts, but are they suitable to a 3-4? By that I mean are they capable of playing on the line without another DT next to them while playing two gaps? Are they too tall to get leverage? I’ll let more informed people answer that question.
I don’t think either would be an upgrade over Robertson at that position, but (as pointed out) at least they are both cheaper.
Lets hope that Tangini does not try to make a splash w/ some 3 way trade to only have the whole thing fall apart and have us back to square 1.
Separately both Jenkins and Rogers can be dominant, but I’ll take the guy who needs motivation (clearly not a problem w/ Mandini team) over the guy who has bee nhurt 2 of past 3 years
seanmac, one of the reasons Detroit may want to move Roy Williams is because of his contract demands. Detroit has a bloated cap and sinking big time money into Williams might not be the front office’s desire. But, on the other hand, Williams is the only WR, so far, that justified his first round choice. So, the Detroit Press thinks Millen won’t want to trade his only success.
By the way, $30 million in guaranteed money seems excessive. That’s what JaMarcus Russell (a QB, the highest compensated position) got as the first pick in the draft and $8 million more than Nate Clements got from the 49ers. CB has a franchise tag number close to $2 million more than WR, so Williams’ demand would be pretty aggressive. But, with an LG, like Faneca, being rumored to get $20 million guaranteed, maybe $22-$25 million is market for a premium WR. That’s still pricey.
“I don’t think either would be an upgrade over Robertson at that position, but (as pointed out) at least they are both cheaper.”
Are you kidding me! DRob has never had the success these two (Rogers and Jenkins) have had. Am I the only one who watched last year how DRob got pushed all over the field while others teams ran for 5yds at a clip? I would take either one in a heart beat.