Jonathan Vilma Trade is Done – Jets Receive Conditional Pick
Posted on February 29th, 2008 by Bassett
It’s official, the linebacker is heading to the New Orleans Saints for a conditional fourth-round pick in ‘09 that could become a third-rounder, depending on on how Vilma performs. Vilma has yet to receive a new deal with his new team, which is the largest indictment of what he was able to command on the market.
Yeesh, look out draft class of ‘09, between this and the Kendall pick, the team is going to be loaded for bear when it comes to the draft.
Well, at least it’s over, but it’s clear that there wasn’t much of a market for the linebacker, and what fans’ expectations and reality are, sometimes don’t exactly intersect. For those that said the Jets should have traded Vilma last offseason, you were right!
Filed under: Main Page
highway robbery. Vilma will be a probowler next year.
Which round is the Kendall pick again?
Ouch, seems like the FO held onto him for a season too long, damaged goods, undersized, but as a Jet fan since 1970 he will probably be in the Pro Bowl next year:)
Good Luck to him!
Anthony, just because he might be a stud for the Saints doesn’t mean he would have had anywhere near the same value in our system. The pick will become a #3 if he stays healthy – that’s pretty valuable in any draft. Vilma’s a smart but undersized MLB who relies on speed but just had major knee surgery. It’s not a shock that there wasn’t much of a market for him.
I agree, a #4 is more valuable to the Jets than Vilma would be. From a Saints perspective though, they have a very good player for a #4 or #3. Good for them.
Kendall pick is 4th round 2009.
So more ammo so we can trade up for RB Knowshon Moreno next year, lol.
We really screwed the pooch on this one. A 3rd rounder at best? Tangini ran the asset value for JV right into the ground. They finally get a decent NT, and then ship JV out? Listen, he may not have been a perennial Pro-Bowler, but he did go to the game a couple of years ago.
I’m still trying to understand why the 3-4 is the be-all and end-all. We turned our two building blocks on D (JV and DRob) into liabilities (no longer “assets”). I’m fine with “wanting” to play a 3-4, but when your best personnel is tailor-made for a 4-3, why cut off your nose to spite your face? The 3-4 is just entirely too specialized. And it severely limits the players you can get. If the 3-4 was so great, everyone would employee it. It is a copy-cat league, after all.
Bottom line – Tangini’s legacy will rest on whether they’re ever able to produce a dominating (not good, but dominating) 3-4 defense.
And to top it all off, JV should have been a model player for the Tangini regime – smart, hard-working…
The fall in value is almost entirely down to his knee injury. Can’t put too much blame on the front office for that. If his knee is as bad as some feared, we may end up actually getting a bargain for damaged goods.
3-4 is better in the long run for cap reasons. I truly believe that. The most expensive position to fill in a 4-3 is the DEs and in Ellis and Thomas, we’d have two mediocre ones at best. And Robertson and Vilma’s contracts are about to run out anyway.
We were never that good in the 4-3 either. Even in 2004, the Steelers wore us down and exposed our weaknesses in the end.
You cant blame the FO for keeping their best defensive player. We all thought he was going to improve. Tell me any one of you if you would trade Vilma last offseason before the draft, knowing you had Barton to rely on????
You also cant blame the FO for Vilma having a degenerative knee condition which was bone chip that was there since high school! Amazing he wasnt injured for nearly 6-7yrs!
I believe that Tannenbaum really lost leverage, Vilma is definetely worth a 1st but his value fell and fell. At least he should have made it so that we would get a 2nd at least or a 1st.
BUT, but! Remember we also get conditional picks from the league depending on his performance if he plays as good as we think he is capable off we may get several conditional picks being up to 3 picks. A 3rd from the Saints and maybe a 2nd and an additional 3rd or 4th from the league. Of course we will have to see what kind of reimbursement the Raiders got from Moss
I didn’t realize that we will still get conditional picks from the league – is this certain? So we get a 3rd or 4th from the saints and also one or two from the league (if he stays healthy)?
Understand about knee injury, but his value started going down as soon as we went to the 3-4. That piece I can blame on Tangini. Hey, we’re paying Faneca $8 million per. I think we could have squeezed out a few more $ for a 4-3 end.
Just look at the draft this year, and who we can / can’t pick at #6 – how many DL can’t we touch because “they wouldn’t fit in a 3-4?”
And Sean Ellis sure looked a lot better when he was in a 4-3. Another useful asset that we’ve degraded.
If the coaches want to move to a 3-4 defense and need to turn over the personnel to make it work, that is there privilege. The reason they were hired to begin with is because things weren’t working very well before they got there. 2004 aside, the Jets were a mediocre to poor 4-3 team for the five years before Mangini came on board.
“BUT, but! Remember we also get conditional picks from the league depending on his performance if he plays as good as we think he is capable off we may get several conditional picks being up to 3 picks.”
Sorry Jeff, but you are totally wrong here. The league only gives compensatory pick if a player is a UFA signed by another team. Not players lost by trade. Even then, the maximum pick is a 3rd rounder (at the end of the round) and this is determined by netting off losses against gains.
It is coach’s privilege to go to a 3-4, but they had BETTER make it work. My gosh, it’s easier to change quarterback and O Coordinator than change fully to a 3-4 (with the right personnel).
Again, my overarching concern is that the 3-4 is so specialized, that:
1) it drastically limits the pool of available players to those who fit “In your system”
2) Takes a long time to fully implement
3) requires further “growing pains” when you want to back out of it and go back to the 4-3
I don’t understand everyone on these boards constantly lamenting the switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, when you hire a coaching staff you let them run the team the way they know how, for Mangini thats a 3-4. You don’t switch your philosophy because the team you are coming to has some parts that don’t fit, if they fit the old system so well the team wouldn’t have needed a new coach in the first place. There were bound to be growing pains, but everyone is too impatient for that, the easy answer is fire the coachj, go back to a 4-3 and continue the cycle of instability that has plagued this franchise for the last 40 years.
The best coaches are flexible enough to mold their “system” to the talent around them. But let’s say, for argument’s sake, that the 3-4 is definitely the way to go. Then shouldn’t we have unloaded Ellis, DRob, JV, et al as soon as Mangini came on board? You can’t tell me they didn’t know they were square pegs for a round hole. The big issue I have is that they took what few defensive assets they had and rendered them worthless. How would we be sitting now if we had 3-4 extra draft picks from trading those 3 guys when they still had value?
Bent – so if there is no chance of getting better than a 3rd rounder next year for JV, what was the main incentive for making this trade? I’ve been reading posts here for the last few days saying that if the Jets didn’t trade JV, they’d get a 3rd rounder next year as compensation when he left. This way, they might not even get that. I understand that they saved some cap space and a roster spot by moving him now, but to me, the difference between a 3rd & 4th rounder is huge. If they only get a 4th rounder for him next year, won’t that make this trade a bust if they could’ve waited (and had a decent player if an ill-fit) another year?
AGREE….lets hear tannenbaums explanation on this one. We could have kept vilma, played him…and when proven healthy could have moved him for more. the flip side is if he isnt healthy we can say we got what we could….but again, a 3rd rounder would have been the compensation if we let him walk. obviously the FO thought keeping him all season would mean keeping a guy who we knew we wouldnt keep long term, so he wouldnt be a happy camper. i just hope we shopped him around enough and got the best deal.
The Jets weren’t even in position to unload all those players due to the cap ramifications, and it’s the worst kind of hindsight to insist that the team should have known without fail that those guys wouldn’t work in a 3-4. Ellis has the size to play DE in the 3-4. Teams have gotten good production out of smaller linebackers in the 3-4 (Ray Lewis isn’t much bigger than Vilma). And Robertson has actually been a good player in the system.
As for the difficulty in transitioning from one system to another, that’s certainly true- the Jets went from having a terrific 3-4 defense to a poor 4-3 defense when Herm came in, and it never really got much better. But it also simplifies. Every scheme is different. San Diego’s 3-4 is different from New England’s. Minnesota’s 4-3 is different from Tampa’s which is different from Tennessee’s.
I agree with GlockNSoul’s comments: the guys making the trades and signing the free agents couldn’t find dates for the Flight Team in a college dorm. Giving Vilma away for conditional pick is awful. Hey, he could play special teams or do something that a fourth rounder does. And if they really are offering to pay a 30-year-old guard big bucks ($8 mill), that’s looney, after stiffing Kendall (age 31 or 32) for $1 mill. And to trade a 3rd and 5th rounder for a fat, lazy tackle is beyond nutty. (We trade a first rounder and get zilch; we buy a tackle and give up the entire draft.) Turn the Jets over to Bassett and Bent, and some of the guys. They might even keep the team at Hofstra.
Matthewm, please step away from the crack pipe!
Keep Vilma to play special teams? This is so ridiculous I’m not even sure why I’m responding, take a former leader of the team and demote him to specials because you can’t get good value for him right now? He would go from disgruntled to homicidal quicker than he USED to be able to track down RBs.
We are now comparing Pete Kendall and Alan Faneca based soley on age, even though Faneca has been to 5 pro bowls and the next one Kendall goes to will be his first?
Jenkins, also a pro bowler by the way, is dismissed as fat and lazy and we gave up our entire draft (a 3rd and a 5th, really?) for him?
I like Bassett and Bent too, love to see them running the team, but the rest of your post is ridiculous.
Seems to me like we rushed this trade, and I’m not sure why. If we kept JV, we could’ve moved him during training camp when another team had lost a LB to injury and probably gotten more in return.
You fools got your wish. REJOICE!
All you guys who are saying that JV and Drob are the cornerstones to our defence must have been watching different games than I was. Drob sucked from day 1, and if Villma was really that good he would have been effective in the 3-4 just like D. Harris is, but he wasn’t. So I say, out with the old and in with the new.
Glock, I totally agree with you. You don’t change to a 3-4 until you have the players that fit the system. On top of everything that has been said, Jenkins is a 4-3 tackle who they hope can play nose! So far, their free agency moves and thoughts are hideous. This is a deep draft. They could have got at least a #3 in this years draft for Vilma. Right now, they have the makings of a good 4-3 — Go With It!
When fitted with the right personell the 3-4 is superior to the 4-3. It gives a defense much more flexibility and the abaility to disquise your coverages and blitz packages. The Jets hired a coach who is a disciple of the 3-4, so to expect him to change his system to suit the personell is ludacriss. The Jets are doing the right thing by getting rid of the palyers who don’t fit and bringing in the ones who do. Remember Tangini didn’t draft VJ or DRob and have no loyalty to them, and last time I checked, when we were running the 4-3 (with VJ and DRob) our defence was at the bottom third then too. Don’t be afraid of change.
I’m curious Harvlis, how do you acquire the players to fit your system? By trading the ones that don’t fit. Jenkins may have played 4-3 previously but he has the body type and skill set to succeed in a 3-4. I guess if you flat out hate the FO you will just kill every move they make regardless of how they stand on their own merits.
Well to all of you who want the 4-3 back… Vilma is gone. Quit it. We almost always had a lousy D with Herm(who led a 4-3 D to 9 straight loses including to us), so how can you say we had good 4-3 players? Wouldn’t that have made us better?
I understand you people need something to cry about, but I’m going to wait till when we should be crying. Let the FO do their job and let us the fans, who don’t know half as much about the business of running a football team that is supported by people like us, do what we do best complain regardless.
I was glad we beat the Chiefs. Go Jets!
Has anyone stopped and considered this was the best deal the FO could get for JV? That maybe waiting till next year for the compensation draft pick that MIGHT have been at the END of the third round was taking a risk. When at least now they have a chance at getting a mid to early third rounder if he plays the whole season.
this is risk and reward.
there is a chance you keep the guy, He plays all year and makes the Pro Bowl. which he hasn’t done in two years and is coming off major surgery.
Theres the same risk he re-hurts his knee and misses another 7 games next year. we only end up with a 4th rounder if we did this trade or release him next year for nothing other than a compensation pick somewhere in the range of a 5th or 6th rounder.
lets not forget his contract is up this year and he hasn’t played well in our system is hurt. What are we going to do? resign him after this year knowing it doesn’t work?
if this was the best deal on the table and I have to think it was why else take it, i say good for the front office. free up more cap space, get something in hand now when theres a very good chance you get nothing next year.
with that said there is only one other thing, Vilma is by far my favorite Jet.
96debacle – good post. But you wrote: “Theres the same risk he re-hurts his knee and misses another 7 games next year… if we release him next year for nothing other than a compensation pick somewhere in the range of a 5th or 6th rounder.”.
Is that correct? if he only played 9 games for us this year because of injury, we’d only get a 5th or 6th round comp pick for him?
One more thing, 96debacle ’s post assumes that the Jets have a good year and the Saints suck. If it’s the other way around, we could be losing out (assuming he stayed healthy in both scenarios).
If we’re lucky. this is what I know about it:
a total of up to 32 picks are given out at the ends of Rounds 3 through 7. These picks are awarded to a team that has lost more free agents than they gained the previous year in free agency. Teams that gain and lose the same number of players but lose higher-valued players than they gain also can be awarded a pick, but only in the seventh round, after the other compensatory picks. the placement of the picks is determined by some formula based on the player’s salary, playing time and postseason honors with his new team, with salary being the primary factor.
From what little info on the subject I can scrap together, is a team that lost a linebacker who signed for $2.5 million per year in free agency might get a sixth-round compensatory pick, while a team that lost a wide receiver who signed for $5 million per year might receive a fourth-round pick.
So depending on playing time and his contract we may only get a 5th or 6th rounder.
the saints record is still another variable. But I don’t see much of a factor with the Saints record if Vilma stays healthy and plays all year. we get their 3rd rounder. the worse the saints do the better the pick true. My point is theres a very good chance in all scenarios the Jets could have walked away with much worse
That makes sense – so is that absolutely the deal, that if he stays healthy and plays all 16 games, we get their 3rd round pick?
Maybe I’ve been working for too long this week, but the last I checked there were rumors that we were trading Vilma for Jenkins and now we are down to a fourth round pick (conditional) in 2009 and we have given up (at least what I read so far) a 3rd round and a fifth round pick for the huge defensive tackle (with injury problems) that would have been a shield for Vilma allowing the aforementioned mlb to succeed in his position.
Either we are really scared of VIlma’s injury or this is just another embarrasing (or growing pains move) for Woody’s team. Kind of reminds one of Herm Edwards for a fourth rounder… or maybe pissing off Pete Kendall to the extent where you are now paying Faneca (a great addition) a ton of money.
Why not try pumping up Vilma’s value, we heard all this talk about how he’s a diligent, tenacious player, why not just name him your staring mlb along side harris and shop Barton around as well to make people think that Vilma is worth more than a conditional 3rd round or 4th round pick.
What are we going to do with Robertson, now that everyone knows we do not need him?
Sidenotes:
How much cap room did the McCareins release create?
I thought Vima was a great jet and I hope he does well.
Once and for all, here is the definitive comp. pick rules…
What 96d wrote was true but has been misinterpreted slightly.
Say we kept Vilma and he left as a free agent next year and we don’t have any other major free agent losses or gains, then the value of our comp pick will depend on the NFL’s secret formula (which as indicated, probably involves seniority, production, contract size and the new team’s record).
However, looking at the Jets cap position they are more likely to have some free agent gains than further significant losses, so these will be taken into account in determining their pick. So, say Vilma’s performance the following year merited a 4th rounder on it’s own, but the Jets also acquired 2 or 3 free agents that contributed, then the overall compensation will probably only net out to a 6th or 7th.
Of course, if we keep spending this year, then the chances of us having FA gains next year are reduced, but overall one 3rd rounder is the absolute maximum compensation for a team and therefore on the balance of probabilities very unlikely indeed.
***The statement “we would have got a 3rd rounder as compensation next year if we kept him” is therefore highly unlikely.***
For what it’s worth I think what we did get for him in the trade is absolutely awful, but that must be all because of the uncertainty over his knee. If he does well, we get a better pick so at least we have a decent reason to root for the guy. Best of luck JV.
Sec108, the way you acquire players to fit your system is — you pick up an experienced nose tackle to man the position. You don’t give up two draft picks for an overweight 4-3 DT that has been beat up in the past and hope that he can play the position. Almost all of our defensive front seven were out of position last year and the results proved it. I am a die-hard Jet fan and I would love Jenkins to work out but, for him to be able to step in to nose tackle and dominate will be a big question mark. As there aren’t many quality Nose Tackles available and our players (D-Rob, Ellis, Thomas) are better at playing the 4-3 — why force the issue? Line D-Rob up next to Jenkins in the middle, Ellis and Thomas at the ends and we would be fine. Last year, management lined everyone up at the wrong position, good players ended up looking like crap, their value fell off the table and, even though we have some good players — it looked like we needed to start from scratch. They forgot about the O-Line last year — look what happened. If they get Faneca (for a small fortune) we still have B. Moore at RG and as previously posted — he is far from an all-pro. They are forgetting about QB this year (so far) and that would be a mistake. Management has alot of work ahead of them, before I start believing in them. They do deserve their props on Thomas Jones, we need more of those type of trades. To give away Vilma for nothing makes me sick. Over time, he will tear it up for the Saints. I used to think that the management of a pro team must know much more than me. I used to think the same thing about the President of the US. I have learned that — you can throw that out the window. Show me the Superbowl!
Javon Walker got cut. It’s on NFL.com
Thanks for the props, but I have to say, if I was running the team, there’s not a whole lot I’d have done differently. Some of the personnel decisions have not been great but none have been long term setbacks and I agree with how the cap has been managed so far (although they sure are throwing about a lot of guaranteed money which makes me nervous).
To respond directly to NYC Parking Expert (and I hope you read my post about the comp pick rule above), I guess the motivation for the trade was (a) what they got is actually probably better than the comp pick would be – see my comments – and saves them a year of salary (b) they had obviously moved on and feel that they should continue to build the defense around the DH instead and (c) giving the guy a chance to resurrect his career in a scheme that suits him.
The injury is clearly a factor too.
Harvlis, it’s a little early to say the team has neglected to fill needs, no?
I disagree that Ellis and Thomas would be fine as 4-3 DEs. Ellis was always inconsistent and BT only really started in 2005 and was a disaster.
Vilma had some nice qualities, classy guy, smart, played hard, but if the other GMs and coaches in the league believed he was as valuable as some of the posters in this thread, they would have offered more for him. Many front offices in the leagues thought the Jets reached badly taking him in the first round. He’s undersized, a poor head on tackler, has difficulty shedding blocks and now has an injury with unknown, long-term prognosis. They took the best they could get for a player and gave him the opportunity he was seeking to prove he could thrive in a 4-3. I hope he does. But I sure am glad the front office didn’t force an unhappy player to stick around a year longer in the hopes of getting a pick a round sooner. Maybe they could have gotten more for him last year. Perhaps there wasn’t a better offer. Maybe Mangini’s ego made him believe he could coach him into success in spite of his limitations. A worse mistake would be not admitting it and keeping him even longer.
I SAY JETS FANS START THE HYPE, CALL INTO THE NY STATIONS GET THE MEDIA TALKING…LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD, GIVE CHAD SOME WEAPONS. WHO DID WE HAVE TO THROW IT TO DEEP? COLES IS GREAT BUT LACKS THE SIZE. CHAD CAN GO DEEP, IMAGINE, MOSS, COTCHERY, AND COLES, WITH NEON LEON, JONES, MAYBE MCFADDEN? SOUNDS LIKE A SERIOUS OFFENSE. KEEP THE HYPE GOIN. WE WANT RANDY
Thanks, Bent. Anyone know how much $ we save by letting JV go?
Newsflash = I just found this…
The Saints reportedly gave up a 2008 draft pick and a conditional 2009 draft pick for Jonathan Vilma.
This makes a lot more sense, although we’re not sure why A) So many stories were proven incorrect Friday and B) there is so much secrecy on the terms of a trade. The deal was originally reported as a conditional 2009 fourth, but the Jets will get a fairer deal. We’ll let you know the exact terms when we know.
Source: Newsday
How do you like me now? Does this (if true) mean that the job offer for me and Bassett is rescinded?
Of course I have the financials! The saving is negligible as he was only due to be earning $1,1m anyway.
As for the 4-3 comments, I think many people are looking back with rose colored glasses. The Jets had one good year in the scheme, recently, and then were promptly faced with the dilemma of having to pay either Ellis or Abraham, a one dimensional player who, nonetheless commanded big FA dollars.
The cap and personnel are more manageable in a 3-4 when it is clear that is the long term course. Adjusting defenses to whatever players one winds up with just leads to huge cap problems. But the more pertinent fact is that Woody Johnson was absolutely dead set on emulating the Patriots organization (minus the cheating, perhaps) when he hired the current management team and is determined to commit long-term. I, for one, a fan for nearly forty years, am encouraged by a commitment to a specific philosophy for consistent, long-term success even if it hurts to let some players that don’t fit the plan go for less than I’d like.
Not only that but once Ferguson were gone, they were pretty screwed and they couldn’t afford him.
For those of you who bad mouth Shaun Ellis – in 2003 and 2004, he had 12.5 and 11 sacks. Now you are going to say that it was because of Abraham. Well do you think that some of Strahans’ sacks are because of Osi? Of course, your play is always affected by the players around you (see Jonathan Vilma). Ellis has played almost every game, since his rookie year. He has been consistent and has made some of the teams biggest plays, during his time here. You forget, because he has been out of position but, he was a factor and, if used properly, could still do some damage.
I will agree that Bryan Thomas has never blossomed into what we thought he would be. I would have said bye-bye a long time ago but, then again, I would have never drafted him. Gholston would be a very nice replacement, if he drops to six.
I am quite relieved that the Vilma trade turns out to be much better than we thought. Now we just have to get Faneca, Shane Olivea, & Randy Moss in Free Agency and then get Gholston, Branden Albert, and James Hardy in the draft and I can go get my tailgate supplies. Go Jets!
Sounds good Harvlis. Wildly optimistic, but good!
Yeah, Big Katt was once a great player, but I’m not sure he is the same guy anymore. He’s a good guy and I hope he can still contribute.
Of course the 3-4 and 4-3 both have merits, but personally I am excited about the flexibility we look set to have next season in terms of sets and personnel.
While the rest of the league is realizing the winning model is to stockpile draft picks and develop players (New England, Pittsburgh, and NY Giants) – the Jets do the opposite.
Good thing they’re moving to Jersey. GOOD RIDDANCE!
Some people are disregarding the fact that the Jets 4-3 rarely had an offense to give them rest. And they often looked bad late in games because of it. They just wore down. Keep building and they become the class of the league. If you look at the best defenses in the league, 3-4 or 4-3, you’ll find one common element, time to gel.
And just from an organizational standpoint, if I spend a 1st round draft picks on players, I’m not changing the system on them.
The Jets waste draft picks. Period. How many players get drafted by the Jets, perform minimally, go elsewhere and become stars. Why is that Aaron Glenn, Santana Moss, James Farrior, John Abraham, etc. excel elsewhere?
Also why draft Gholston and have all these tweener linebackers like Thomas and Pace? Gholston would be great as a 4-3 end, but like Thomas, he’s struggling as a linebacker.