Comments on: McShay & Kiper New Mock Drafts Released on 4/1 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/ Ranting and Raving about the Gang Green Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:12:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76545 SackDance99 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:52:02 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76545 p4p, not to quibble, but nearly all of the sacks were edge rushes. A couple of times he blew past an RB, a couple of times he was blocked but the QB got flushed and VG got an easy sack. I saw one potential bull rush, but it's a lot harder to bull rush a 6-6, 320 lb NFL LT. There's no doubt VG is fast and with the Jets' improved DL, along with Pace and Harris, maybe VG could translate his speed into sacks, but I didn't see anything to convince me that he'd be a superior pass rusher, in the LT, Derrick Thomas, Merriman or Ware mode. The no. 6 pick is pricey for VG's skill set. Also, while your Harvey/VG comparison was interesting, it should be noted that in 2007, OSU had the no. 1 defense; Florida was 41. When Harvey's numbers were better in 2006, Florida had the no. 6 best defense, and OSU was at no. 2. VG has had the better team defense around him. Bent, Harris had as good a rookie season for an LB that I've ever seen by a Jet. I have no idea what his 40 speed was, but they should've timed him chasing a ball carrier. He has great closing speed and delivers a real hard hit. For all the D-Rob detractors, one of the reasons Harris was so good at blitzing was because in the pass rush D-Rob had to be double-teamed. Harris and Pace form a nice foundation, but the Jets still need to upgrade ILB and get more out of the weak-side OLB. I still think BT can do the job. Also, BT and Freeney were the top DE picks coming out of college and many draft boards had BT first. So, it wasn't like BT wasn't highly regarded. p4p, not to quibble, but nearly all of the sacks were edge rushes. A couple of times he blew past an RB, a couple of times he was blocked but the QB got flushed and VG got an easy sack. I saw one potential bull rush, but it’s a lot harder to bull rush a 6-6, 320 lb NFL LT. There’s no doubt VG is fast and with the Jets’ improved DL, along with Pace and Harris, maybe VG could translate his speed into sacks, but I didn’t see anything to convince me that he’d be a superior pass rusher, in the LT, Derrick Thomas, Merriman or Ware mode. The no. 6 pick is pricey for VG’s skill set.

Also, while your Harvey/VG comparison was interesting, it should be noted that in 2007, OSU had the no. 1 defense; Florida was 41. When Harvey’s numbers were better in 2006, Florida had the no. 6 best defense, and OSU was at no. 2. VG has had the better team defense around him.

Bent, Harris had as good a rookie season for an LB that I’ve ever seen by a Jet. I have no idea what his 40 speed was, but they should’ve timed him chasing a ball carrier. He has great closing speed and delivers a real hard hit. For all the D-Rob detractors, one of the reasons Harris was so good at blitzing was because in the pass rush D-Rob had to be double-teamed. Harris and Pace form a nice foundation, but the Jets still need to upgrade ILB and get more out of the weak-side OLB. I still think BT can do the job. Also, BT and Freeney were the top DE picks coming out of college and many draft boards had BT first. So, it wasn’t like BT wasn’t highly regarded.

]]> By: seanmac http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76526 seanmac Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:32:55 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76526 Bryan Thomas played quite a few games against NFL prospect linemen. He singlehandedly destroyed a Florida State line that sent four players to the pros. And the Big Ten doesn't exactly have a proud history of sending big time pass rushers into the NFL. Bryan Thomas played quite a few games against NFL prospect linemen. He singlehandedly destroyed a Florida State line that sent four players to the pros. And the Big Ten doesn’t exactly have a proud history of sending big time pass rushers into the NFL.

]]> By: pound4pound http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76525 pound4pound Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:32:34 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76525 And by the way, I love Harvey too, and I don't understand why he's not universally thought of as a top-10 lock. But I think VG has a lot going for him as well. Here's a little side-by side comparison for those two guys: Number of different games with at least one sack: Harvey: 7 in '06, 5 in '07 VG: 7 in '06, 7 in '07 Number of sacks vs "quality opposition" (simply defined as BCS-conference teams who finished at or above .500 ): Harvey: 9 in '06, 5.5 in '07 VG: 3 in '06, 10 in '07 Obviously, stats can't tell the whole story for defensive players. My point is simply that this notion that Gholston's raw potential hasn't translated to the field is misguided. If anything, I wonder how great he could be in 3-4 years if he's already accomplished this much without fully understanding technique. And by the way, I love Harvey too, and I don’t understand why he’s not universally thought of as a top-10 lock. But I think VG has a lot going for him as well. Here’s a little side-by side comparison for those two guys:

Number of different games with at least one sack:
Harvey: 7 in ’06, 5 in ’07
VG: 7 in ’06, 7 in ’07

Number of sacks vs “quality opposition” (simply defined as BCS-conference teams who finished at or above .500 ):
Harvey: 9 in ’06, 5.5 in ’07
VG: 3 in ’06, 10 in ’07

Obviously, stats can’t tell the whole story for defensive players. My point is simply that this notion that Gholston’s raw potential hasn’t translated to the field is misguided. If anything, I wonder how great he could be in 3-4 years if he’s already accomplished this much without fully understanding technique.

]]> By: Bent http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76522 Bent Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:27:47 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76522 Thanks for the link, sack. As I've said before, I expected VG to be a one-trick pony and was surprised to find that he wasn't. That doesn't mean he won't be shut down by the top pass protectors in the early part of his career though. I wanted to address your comment about Harris. I was absolutely staggered that Harris was able to get 5.5 sacks in half a season, when I didn't view him as a great blitzer. I wonder if that was a blip or will he be able to replicate it? It was far more than Vilma ever produced from that position, but in college he only had 4 in his whole career! Thanks for the link, sack. As I’ve said before, I expected VG to be a one-trick pony and was surprised to find that he wasn’t. That doesn’t mean he won’t be shut down by the top pass protectors in the early part of his career though.

I wanted to address your comment about Harris. I was absolutely staggered that Harris was able to get 5.5 sacks in half a season, when I didn’t view him as a great blitzer. I wonder if that was a blip or will he be able to replicate it? It was far more than Vilma ever produced from that position, but in college he only had 4 in his whole career!

]]> By: ramble914 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76521 ramble914 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:17:36 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76521 There is a big difference btwn B. Thomas and V. Gholston coming out of college. B. Thomas played for Birmingham, Gholston played for OSU. B. Thomas should never have been #22 overall (another Bradway gem). I think Gholston will be a very good OLB in the 3-4. I just don't see how he cannot be, 6'-4", 260 lbs. and runs a 4.60- 40. 22 sacks 38 tackles for loss the last 2 years. Combime him with Pace and Thomas and we'll have a excellent pass rush. There is a big difference btwn B. Thomas and V. Gholston coming out of college. B. Thomas played for Birmingham, Gholston played for OSU. B. Thomas should never have been #22 overall (another Bradway gem). I think Gholston will be a very good OLB in the 3-4. I just don’t see how he cannot be, 6′-4″, 260 lbs. and runs a 4.60- 40. 22 sacks 38 tackles for loss the last 2 years. Combime him with Pace and Thomas and we’ll have a excellent pass rush.

]]> By: pound4pound http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76518 pound4pound Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:09:46 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76518 SackDance, I think this video shows a pretty good variety of moves, including the bull rush: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ VG has said in interviews that, because he came to OSU with more experience as a weightlifter and wrestler than as a football player, he actually defaulted to the bull rush his first season on the field. Then he spent last off-season honing the outside speed rush and swim technique. Considering how new he is to all rush techniques, I think it's way too early to say he's a one-trick pony. SackDance,

I think this video shows a pretty good variety of moves, including the bull rush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ

VG has said in interviews that, because he came to OSU with more experience as a weightlifter and wrestler than as a football player, he actually defaulted to the bull rush his first season on the field. Then he spent last off-season honing the outside speed rush and swim technique. Considering how new he is to all rush techniques, I think it’s way too early to say he’s a one-trick pony.

]]> By: seanmac http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76512 seanmac Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:57:37 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76512 I'm not adverse to a Gholston pick at this point- as I said, he does look to me like he'll be more effective standing up than he was as a DE (if I was a 4-3 team, I'd be running in the other direction). I prefer a more well-rounded player, but I do think Gholston will be effective rushing the passer out of the 3-4, which is what you would be paying him for. But I think the Gholston bandwagon is getting carried away about just how good of a prospect he is or how major an impact he is likely to have. The only reason why I think Gholston is a viable pick at six is because of the weakness of the rest of the top of the draft/the bad fits between several of the elite prospects and the Jets. John Abraham, Julius Peterson, Shawne Merriman, Demarcus Ware- these guys were all better prospects, and they all went a good 8-12 picks later than Gholston figures to go. The whole idea of playing a 3-4 was to get better value on players who didn't fit into other defenses, but the way it is playing out, we're going to end up reaching and getting worse value on account of the defense. I’m not adverse to a Gholston pick at this point- as I said, he does look to me like he’ll be more effective standing up than he was as a DE (if I was a 4-3 team, I’d be running in the other direction). I prefer a more well-rounded player, but I do think Gholston will be effective rushing the passer out of the 3-4, which is what you would be paying him for. But I think the Gholston bandwagon is getting carried away about just how good of a prospect he is or how major an impact he is likely to have. The only reason why I think Gholston is a viable pick at six is because of the weakness of the rest of the top of the draft/the bad fits between several of the elite prospects and the Jets. John Abraham, Julius Peterson, Shawne Merriman, Demarcus Ware- these guys were all better prospects, and they all went a good 8-12 picks later than Gholston figures to go. The whole idea of playing a 3-4 was to get better value on players who didn’t fit into other defenses, but the way it is playing out, we’re going to end up reaching and getting worse value on account of the defense.

]]> By: RK http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76500 RK Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:04:56 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76500 I agree Sack. While if Vern is picked I'd be interested to see how the Jets use him I think that any pro worth his salt has multiple "moves" other than trying to out fast the tackle. Just like in NBA or MBL all one trick ponies are exposed. If you can't bull rush might as well give up. Also, if you aren't making plays behind the line, don't expect to make them for a loss. I agree Sack. While if Vern is picked I’d be interested to see how the Jets use him I think that any pro worth his salt has multiple “moves” other than trying to out fast the tackle. Just like in NBA or MBL all one trick ponies are exposed.

If you can’t bull rush might as well give up. Also, if you aren’t making plays behind the line, don’t expect to make them for a loss.

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76492 SackDance99 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:41:43 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76492 Here's a good article on the art of the pass rush: http://www.expertvillage.com/article/5412_football-pass-rush-2.htm If anyone has a link showing that VG does any pass rush move, other than coming off the edge, I'd like to see it. Here’s a good article on the art of the pass rush:

http://www.expertvillage.com/article/5412_football-pass-rush-2.htm

If anyone has a link showing that VG does any pass rush move, other than coming off the edge, I’d like to see it.

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/04/02/mcshay-kiper-new-mock-drafts-released-on-41/#comment-76489 SackDance99 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:33:11 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=3808#comment-76489 When you strongly advocate a player to be taken in the draft, you have to expect that the choice will be criticized. I've pounded the table on Ryan and gotten pelted with just as many (or more) negative comments. I just don't believe that Gholston is a "need" pick, especially since the Jets now have Pace. The Jets have BT, who can go back to the weak side and replace Hobson, who was simply too short for the position (I still think Hobson should get a shot at ILB and compete with Barton). Also, the Jets have Bowens, who I like a lot, has very good pass rush skills and can come in on obvious passing downs. Not to mention, Harris had 5.5 sacks in half a season. Combine those facts with the concerns that many scouts have with Gholston's overall football ability and he becomes as risky a pick (or riskier) than any of the other top 10 candidates. I think Harvey will be the better pro, he's bigger and a better tackler. If there's anyone who is like Merriman, it's Harvey. I just look at Gholston's body, especially that thin waist and lower body, and wonder whether he will have any pass rush move other than the edge rush. NFL LTs can handle edge rushers, it's the guys who also can bull rush, swim, club, etc. who end up being all-pros. When you strongly advocate a player to be taken in the draft, you have to expect that the choice will be criticized. I’ve pounded the table on Ryan and gotten pelted with just as many (or more) negative comments.

I just don’t believe that Gholston is a “need” pick, especially since the Jets now have Pace. The Jets have BT, who can go back to the weak side and replace Hobson, who was simply too short for the position (I still think Hobson should get a shot at ILB and compete with Barton). Also, the Jets have Bowens, who I like a lot, has very good pass rush skills and can come in on obvious passing downs. Not to mention, Harris had 5.5 sacks in half a season.

Combine those facts with the concerns that many scouts have with Gholston’s overall football ability and he becomes as risky a pick (or riskier) than any of the other top 10 candidates. I think Harvey will be the better pro, he’s bigger and a better tackler. If there’s anyone who is like Merriman, it’s Harvey. I just look at Gholston’s body, especially that thin waist and lower body, and wonder whether he will have any pass rush move other than the edge rush. NFL LTs can handle edge rushers, it’s the guys who also can bull rush, swim, club, etc. who end up being all-pros.

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