Let Battle Football Begin!!
Although the workouts have been going on all week, today is the first day for the press to see some of what’s happening with the new team. Today in the NY Post, Canny recounts the two conflicting thoughts on the quarterback battle.
There are two schools of thought when it comes to who will emerge as the starter. First, after the Jets signed a number of new players to more than $140 million on contracts this offseason, it would be easy to deduce that they’re in a “win-now” mode. That would suggest that Pennington, who’s proven he can win in the NFL with a competent cast surrounding him, might have the edge.
No one will say it publicly, but the organization is clearly pulling for Clemens to emerge as the starter for several reasons, beginning with the fact that this regime drafted him in the second round two years ago and would like to be right in its talent assessment.
I’d agree wholeheartedly, you’d imagine that the coaching staff and front office is hoping for Clemens to win. In addition to what Cannizarro outlines, he was the one who took over for Pennington late in the season and he was the one who finished off the season, even after getting knocked out of the Patriots game in Week 16. I think what the Jets want to see in camp and the preseason is his ability to react to situations as presented, stay in the pocket, how well he can read through his progressions and then his ability to anticpate coverages putting the ball on target.
Allez QB controversy!!
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Bassett:
Cannizarro’s points are valid but double edge. Pennington is the only proven winner and the FO would like to see its future start at QB. For Kellens to start the team will have to be strong enough to carry him untill he learns to win. However, if he doesn’t start winning early, very early how long will they wait before they sacrifice everyhting they built in the offseason. My opinion is that the front office should not take a chance and start Pennington untill its necessary to replace him , otherwise they are taking a big risk and leaving themselves open to blame.
PS….also remember that Kellens had a great camp last year and it did NOT translate onto the field when he took over for Pennington
hank/naples,
It didnt translate because he was running for his life half the time…
hank/naples,
I realized after many hot debates on this blog, that no one knows who the better Qb is for 2008. Maybe Kellen improved or maybe Chad’s arm has gotten stronger.. no one nkows until we see these guys play.
Once they start practicing and we see them in preseason, then we can better assess these guys and see who is more suited to start.
We cannot base anything on last year. Start a new page and the better more impressive QB will play!
Pennington does not give us the best chance of winning. Do you not see how he puts every receiver in danger? Every time he does a soft toss down the sideline coles or cotchery makes a great catch only to be leveled by the safety waiting there?
His last year when he had a good supporting cast in 2006- the Jets won games despite Chad! Before 2006 he was a smart QB who didn’t make big mistakes but in 2006 who threw 17 tds and 16 ints! Do you not remember the bears game that the jets lost 10-0? The two terrible interceptions he threw? I know I’m picking on hin for one game but he has had so 4th quarter awful ints the last couple of years. Even in game 2 when the jets almost came back from 24-0 against the pats, one of the biggest plays was the cotchery play when he got LEVELED and stayed up. 99% of receivers are not staying up when Chad leaves them exposed for safetys. The jets just happen to have two tough WR’s. If Chad doesnt provide the deep threat he has to be a mistake free QB. His two years he had 27tds and 25 picks. Not acceptable for a “smart” QB!
Why do we give Chad a break because of the supporting cast last year yet we expected a Kellen to perform great in his first chance with the same terrible support cast?
Chad was a great player for us and I hate to have to constantly rip him but we have to realize that hes not the same smart QB anymore.
I definitely see this QB controversy taking of the jetsblog.com until the Jets start winning games with one of them!
Bilal,
You’re saying the jets won despite pennington in 06? What supporting cast are you talking about? I don’t know the exact stats but the defense was ranked in the bottom half of the league, meaning the offense had to pick up the slack
And if yyou wanna talk about the bears game, what about the packers game when he had 250 yards and 2 TDs at half time.
Pennington has more YPA than Clemens, so obviously he is making up for his lack of arm strength
Of course they want Clemens to win the job Pennington was horrible last year and he does not have an NFL arm anymore. You just cant win in this league when your passing game is so obviously limited. Not to mention his greatest asset ,decision making, failed him at the most critical times in games (vs Giants, Bills, pretty much every game he started). Didn’t Clemens win 2 more games with an even crappier cast at the end of the season? Name one starting or backup QB with a lessor, more limiting arm than Chad?
Its a non-controversy as far as I’m concerned. Chad will be a great backup.
I know Im going to get alot of argument for this but here it goes anyway:
If they’re in a “win-now” mode..they should consider signing CULPEPPER for one season…He wouldn’t get big money, we can release Chad, because it seems deep down this is what the org wants to do eventually! Culpepper has some miles on him but he can definitely throw the ball and has the experience to get us there…JUST A CRAZY THOUGHT
Do you remember the Jets defense post bye week? The pass rush was amazing(hence b thomas great contract). Thats what turned it around that season- including the big victory in NE when the Jets were really getting after Brady. Hobson, Barton, Kerry Rhodes and even Robertson had a great year in 06. They also had a pretty soft schedule that year Chad was great in that packers game but good were the packers at the time? and he finished that game with 2 td and 2 ints!
Okay- it was far fetched to say that they won despite him because the pass game was really working that year. But people think he had this great year but he made so many mistakes that he didnt make in his previous good seaons(04). Before 2006 he had all the hype about having 0 redzone ints- do we hear about that anymore? No cause now he normally throws these redzone ints. “Smart” Qb’s aren’t so smart if they only throw one more TD than int in a full season.
Yes pennington has more ypa than Clemens due to the short passing game and the ability of Coles and Cotchery to break tackles and pick those yards after catch. What about yards per completetion? Last year Kellen avg 2 yards better per completetion that Chad! I’m assuming(which I may be wrong) and hoping that Kellen will be able to up his completetion percentage with the revamped O line and another year of experience.
Freeman
This line is exactly what I felt but didn’t put in words:
“Not to mention his greatest asset ,decision making, failed him at the most critical times in games (vs Giants, Bills, pretty much every game he started).”
His decision making isn’t the same, I was cringed in close late game situations with Chad in there hoping he didnt loft one up without looking. What game was it last year when he just threw it up in the endzone in the 4th for a pick? was it the giants game?
I agree with Najy. Let the best player win. Chad was atrocious last year in the last few minutes of games. Aside from that he was ok with the team he was playing with. I don’t know how we went from being so smart to trying to force throws. If he’s that QB again, he’s not starting. If he can be average, he’s got a good shot. I think almost everyone wants to see Clemens win this because he can be the future. I think just give them both a shot to win it and the best man will win. If they both flop? Then we have to draft a QB fast and get a journeyman for a season or two. If our O-line and running is above average, and our defense can be a top-10 (which it should), then this QB mess shouldn’t be as big of a deal. It’ll be an interesting next 4 months.
The best thing for the organization is for Clemens to *win* the job and have a productive season. It will demonstrate that he is progressing, which means the team may have a QB of the future. That allows the FO to use next offseason to continue filling in holes and adding depth to other parts of the team.
Now, as much as I will be rooting for Clemens to win the job, I don’t think it does the team any good to just hand it to him. This will be his third year in the league, and he has had the same coaches and system the entire time. Plus, he has half a season of experience to lean on. If, after all that plus another offseason and training camp, he still can’t beat out Chad, the FO has to come to terms with the fact that they made a bad pick, play Chad as a one-year stopgap, and use the upcoming offseason to address the QB problem.
Maybe that means taking a run at Derek Anderson or Brady Quinn for 2009 (both of whom could be ready to play immediately and be the guy down the road), since the Browns can’t afford to be locked in to two enormous QB contracts. Or, maybe drafting a QB next year (less appealing option, since he likely wouldn’t be truly ready to contribute until guys like Jenkins and Faneca are gone).
Either way, the team needs to objectively evaluate both players and choose the one who legitimately wins the competition. They can not fall into the trap of choosing Chad, because of some mythical “win-now” mandate, nor can they choose Clemens, because they were the ones who drafted him. And, whoever they pick, needs to the guy for 16 games barring injury. It’s not going to do anyone any good to have the starting QB looking over his shoulder every week and having the coach answering that question every Monday.
The bottom line is, whether it’s #10 or #11 behind center on opening day, he has to be there, because he earned it.
Please god not Derek Anderson. He had a great offense surrounding him and he still blew the game against the Bengals. KC has been inept, but he never threw 4 picks against a division rival.
[...] Although the workouts have been going on all week, today is the first day for the press to see some of what’s happening with the new team.http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4232 [...]
Najy – awesome and well-reasoned post. We can debate all we want but when it comes down to it, the players themselves will make the decision for all of us, fans and FO included. They may want KC to win the job, but if he doesn’t show he can do it, no amount of argument should give him the job. We already know what Chad is and last year was an anomaly for both QBs. If Clemens looks better than Chad in camp, then let the boy play!
JohnnyL,
Exactly. Personally, I want Kellen to win the job because I am very skeptical about Chad bouncing back after 2 surgeries and a broken wrist. Plus, he is injury prone and lacks arm strenght.
But with all that said, if he can still beat out Kellen with all the negatives that are working against him, then so be it. I want the best QB to start and I think people would be jumping the gun assuming that one Qb is better than the other for 2008.
Based on last year, I would want Kellen to start for 2008 but we dont know what type of game Chad will play and how improved his arm strength is. Plus, we dont know how improved Kellen is.
We have about 3 months for preseason. We just have to be patient and hope for the best.
The NYC Parking Expert,
Unless both Qbs suck this year, this needs to be the last year that we have “Open competition at the Qb position” .
I dont know to many good teams that have open comps for Qb. Its kind of funny once you think about it. Qb is suppose to be a solid position with no guessing. Its not like a DT position where you can have a different starter every year.
It is kind of pathetic but we have to deal with. Hopefully this is the last year that we have open competition at Qb.
2007 – Clemens 3 wins; Pennington 1 win. Pennington definitely showed that he was the proven winner last year.
Najy-
Patience?! I dont think anyone on here talking about the Jets QB situation has any patience! lol
Football is the only sport for me that I follow 365 days a year- I cant wait for footbaLL!!!!!!
Okay, I too am tired of the “guessing” going on regarding who will be the QB and how good the JETS will be. We all know it will play itself out. But at this time of year there isn’t much else to discuss so I will give my thoughts on the QB situation and the team as a whole:
First I’d like to address the whole “win now mode”. Every team is in a win now mode. Ridiculous. There are few situations that actually qualify for this term. New England last year, when it was clear their only major weakness was wide receiver, went out and signed every WR they could. Why? Because if they upgraded that position they knew they would be well positioned to make a championship run. THAT’s a win now mode. This year the Jets are in a “let’s upgrade as many spots as we can, because the year before we over valued many of our players” mode.
I believe that Tangini have a long term plan. Minimum of 4 years from when they came in, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan was more like 5-8 years. So with that said, of course they want to win now, but that will be tempered by the fact that they are looking at the bigger picture. I am convinced that they do not view Chad as the answer at QB, and therefor, even if they believe Chad has a better chance of winning today, they will do everything they can to give Kellen the job. That is the smart move looking to the future. Only if Kellen is a complete flop this year will they return to Chad. Also, they would never sign Culpepper. Makes no sense to, A-spend the money, B-take a roster spot from a young kid that could develop, and C-they don’t even know if this team will be competitive this year.
I believe Mangini learned alot last season and will do a better job this year. Add to that ,that I think the talent has been upgraded and the Jets should be much better this year. 8-8 at a minimum. Just my thoughts.
Bilal,
I hear ya man. I am the same way.
I ment tho that we have to be patient and let things unfold on their own. Great teams are not built in 2 years.
Hopefully Kellen wins. If chad wins we are drafting another QB next year unless ainge turns out to be a miracle. Chad is on the downside of his carrear any way you look at it.
To add to your Culpepper thouhts Pete57:
D) He’s fat
E) He sucks
I mean seriously, when’s the last time this guy was relevant at QB in the NFL? 2004? He hasn’t done anything to dispel the notion that he can’t produce without moss. Look it up, last 3 seasons, Minnesota, Miami, Oakland, suck, suck suck. If we need to include this guy in our QB competition than this team has bigger problems than anyone on this blog is ready to admit.
Culpepper is bad but he did prove he can do something without Randy Moss.
04 – 4717 yards 39 TD 11 int
Randy Moss was pretty much injured half of the year in 04. He only had 49 rec 767 yards 13 td in 13 games. If you remember, he didnt really play 13 games- they kept his starting streak alive but he would get taken out of the games. If you take away Randys performance this is how culpeppers stats would look:
3950 yards 26 td – Thats still a great season so all this “he’s not good without randy” talk is unfair. You can blame his performance the past few years on his knee injury!
I don’t mind everyone bashing Chad, but giving KC a free ride for last season just isn’t fair. He stunk. He was the worst starting QB in the NFL last year. Guys with equally bad offensive lines like Croyle and Huard at KC or Kitna at Detroit or Joey Harrington at Atlanta (the poster boy for first round flops) all had better seasons. KC had 2 NFL training camps under his belt. Yet, he was confused in the pocket and became skittish any time a defender got close. Also, he was inaccurate and threw too many INTs. Plus, he got hurt on what was a good hit, but by no means a vicious LT-Theisman type hit (his 2nd injury in 3 football seasons). KC’s only asset is that he’s not 2007 Chad (and 2007 Chad was not NFL quality), but 2006 Chad is a better QB, hands down. Also, Chad’s arm doesn’t have to get stronger. If, as I suspect, his ankle injury was hampering his throwing ability, he just needs to be healthy. If the QB competition is strictly merit-based, Chad will destroy pre-season NFL defenses and win easily, just as he did in 2006.
Huard was winning until he got hurt with a declining line. Not a horrible one.
Kitna got sacked alot because Martz’s offense revolves around a qb waiting until the routes fully develop. It can be a killer.
Croyle didn’t win a game. Stats are meaning less in that situation.
Atlanta spent so much time playing 2nd stringers anyone’s stats would be inflated.
Other than Croyle all of those other QBs have been in the league for over 4 years.
C’mon Sack you are making it easy.
JAGG, stats are meaningless? Your assessment of Martz is wrong, plus Kitna was better…which was the point and which you concede. And, if you want guys with minimal NFL experience who had better NFL stats, regardless of bad OLs, how about Cleo Lemon, Trent Edwards, and Tavaris Jackson? JAGG, you can do better…KC was no. 33 in a 32 team league…isn’t that the only stat that counts?
No Wins count.
Cleo Lemon had a mansion built in the land of garbage time.
Tavaris jackson had a great offensive line and constantly 8 men in the box. He still sucked
I have heard Martz speak on his offense. I heard Kitna defend playing with his concussions and how that his toughness was needed for the offense to work.
I think Trent Edwards is good. Steal of the draft. I had him graded as a 2nd rounder. He still had a better line.
I am in no way giving him a free pass. He has to win the job.
Sack- I always enjoy our conversations
JAGG being the diplomat! I love it!! I am making you the ambassador for the Principality of TheJetsBlog.comdom!!!
najy
your right…in the end its up to cpenn and KC…who wants it more…but i really believe cpenn has to outshine KC by a large margin in order for him to win the job…
lets face it…if cpenn barely beats KC out for the job in training camp…then i would rather start KC…just my thoughts
Ah and people thought I would amount to nothing.
jwa jwa jwa
Sack,
You might be right about those other QB’s being better than KC last year, but they are all more experienced. I think you completely ignore that fact. It’s very rare for a young QB to come in and shine in his first starts. If KC flops this year I will be in full agreement that we need to look in another direction. However, I don’t think he will flop. I think he will come in and be a much different QB from what we saw last year, and I mean that for the better.
It may be rare for a young qb to come in and shine in his first starts but they need to demonstrate pocket presence. Kellen was terrible in the pocket and this is not something that can be coached. Chad will win any competition between the two.
But the really good teams do not have open competition at qb.
Pat- Chad might not win. He doesn’t make as good decisions as he used to, he lacks arms strength, he gets recievers killed, and he is an egg.
Kellen needs work. If he isn’t the answer I will pack his bags for him.
Lets just not declare a winner until it is over. Chad doesn’t really want to be there and if Kellen is meant to be a QB he has been obsessed with his performance sucking it up since the Chiefs game.
ramble, Trent Edwards, Croyle and Tavaris Jackson don’t have more experience than KC and KC, as a 2nd round draft pick, certainly had more quality camp time than Cleo Lemon.
JAGG, sorry, but I just can’t give KC “credit” for the 3 wins. The Pittsburgh game was won by an awesome defensive game plan, even Chad beat Miami and the Miami team that KC faced was considerably weaker, and the Chiefs game was a game that KC almost lost, despite the Chiefs all but handing the ball off to the Jets and letting them score a defensive TD. If just wins were all that was necessary to evaluate a QB, then Rex Grossman should be in the Pro Bowl.
KC could not run the Jets offense and got worse as the season progressed. I’m just pointing out the considerable downside to KC as a putative NFL QB. I just don’t see it, but I’ll be cheering for whoever wins the QB battle from my nose bleed upper level seats (at least I’m in the sun!).
JAGG, I enjoy any debate on this blog that doesn’t descend into mindless name-calling and you never descend to the Patriot level.
The Miami that KC faced did win a game. Chad blew games that I don’t think KC would have. The Giants game was all him and on one play Andre Dyson. KC would have beat the Redskins and if Cotchery had caught the 40yd ball in his bread basket we don’t need over time against the Chiefs.
There are points on both sides. I want to see them compete. Nothing gets the blood flowing like a challenge. I don’t think anyone other than Nagle is as bad as you believe KC to be. I think he has more potential than Croyle and Jackson for sure.
The Vikings are a good team. 100 times better than we were last year and Jackson held them back.
P.S. Rex Grossman won with a top 5 defense. I don’t think I have been alive to see our defense ranked in the top 5 overall.
SackDance99,
You can make the same argument for Chad that he got progressively worse as the season went on as well. That is not a good point. All the points that you are making can all be used against Chad as well.
All the Chad loyalist have is the 2002 season and the playoff win against the Chargers. That is everyone is basing there arguments on about Chad. Because of his performance, you think that he should start.
My question is this…. How is his past performance going to help him in 2008?
JAGG: Were you alive in 1998? Jets were 2nd in points, 7th in yards, but I always thought points were more important. In 2004, Jets were 4th in points and 7th again in yards. In 1985, Jets were 3rd in points, 8th in yards.
Because the Jets D vastly improved over KC’s final 7 games, I think Chad would’ve beaten Cleveland, while I think the only game KC would’ve had a shot of winning that Chad started was the 1st Buffalo game. With the Giants’ pass rush, no way KC beats them…he’s too skittish in the pocket.
Najy, Chad was injured…my whole thesis for Chad being the winner of the QB competition is that he’ll be able to complete the short out and be 2006 Chad, who I thought, even with his weak arm, was a good QB.
Also, you’re relatively new to this blog, if you saw my comments after the 1st Buffalo loss, I was all for benching Chad for all of the reasons that all his detractors cite: his weak arm made a short out a pick 6 waiting to happen, his inability to go over the top allowed opposing defenses to play 8 men in the box without fear, his lack of mobility coupled with the weak OL made him a sitting duck and his short passes were killing his WRs (mainly because the safeties and LBs were teeing off on all the short stuff). Also, the running game suffered.
I continued the drum beat until the Pats game and, warts and all, Chad was able to move the Jets offense, something KC was incapable of doing the week before against Cleveland, which had a significantly worse defense. Moreover, seanmac kept pointing out how KC’s lack of accuracy was hurting the team more than Chad’s lack of arm strength. Initially, I disagreed, for all of the reasons that you and others had pointed out: KC didn’t have LC and Jericho and KC was facing tougher defenses. But, the Cleveland game really brought all of KC’s shortcomings out. So, seanmac convinced me…Chad’s experience and accuracy out-weighed any potential “upside” for KC.
Also, there’s something more to QBs than just the measureables, there’s intangibles. Now, I know that you played Div. III football, so you’ll get this point: KC faced his high school and college rival in Derek Anderson and laid an egg. Sorry, but a true competitor has his best game in these circumstances. I know, this is just my opinion, but I think we got a peak into KC’s soul as a competitor and he’s all jelly. Whatever you can say about Chad, you can’t say he isn’t tough. Is KC tough enough to play the QB position? To stand back there, until the last second, and deliver a pass knowing he may be knocked out by the pass rush, takes real heart. Plus, if the QB is worried about the pass rush, he’s not looking off safeties, he’s locking on to a WR or throwing the ball too soon or too late…all things KC did with regularity. KC looks like he doesn’t want to be hit and that’s not a great trait for an NFL QB. Also, while being under 6-2 isn’t dispositive, it’s an impediment…one that given all of KC’s other bad habits doesn’t lead me to believe he will make it in the NFL.
SackDance99,
I see your point and I want to bring up to thoughts…
Arm strength vs. accuracy..
I agree with you that Chad is 100x more accurate than Kellen but accuracy can be developed through practice, practice, practice. A qb can become a more accurate passer through repetition.
Usually, the most significant improvements in a Qb’s developement is the ability to read the defense and go through his progressions and accuracy. That comes with experience and repetition.
Arm strength, especially in Chad’s case after 2 surgeries cannot be developed in Chad’s age. We all know how important arm strength is for the reasons that you mentioned in your posts above.
Next point is KC’s toughness. Automatically, i think about the baltimore game where he got pounded repeatedly into the dirt. He threw an interception in the 1st quarter and was just beaten up until the 3rd. He came back, hung in the pocked and made some very impressive plays.
Also, the game vs. the redksins comes to mind and his persistence to take hits and keep on ticking. Espcially making big plays in the 4th quarter.
I have changed my stance on the Qb situation because I dont know if Kellen has improved his accuracy and if he has improved his ability to read the defense and go through his progressions. But if he has, he will beat Chad hands down.
I dont think you will see 2 improved Qbs from last year, especially with Chad looking to make smarter decisions and getting back to the basics. However, I think that is all that Chad can improve on is his poor decisions from last year.
Sack, it is obvious that whoever looks more impressive in training camp and preseason will start.
I dont think the coaches care about Chad’s statistics from the past or what he has accomplished or where he stands in completion percentage among Qbs in history….
Chad will be Chad.. his game and accuracy and decision making will be there in 2008….
The job is there for Kellen to win…. It is up to Kellen to take it.
Bottom line…
(In my opinion) I dont think it matters what Chad does. If Kellen has improved in accuracy and pocket presence, he will win the starting job… hands down.
And if KC has not improved, then you will see CP start.
Our offense only scored a FG against the Pats… I dont know if you could label that as “moving the ball”
I was alive in 98. I just really don’t remember looking at our run D and thinking wow that is staggering.
JAGG, for what it’s worth, the Jets had the no. 2 overall defense in 1998, but were 14th against the run (in terms of yards). The Jets started off poor against the run, then held teams under 100 yards rushing in 7 of the last 11 games and were 10-1, including a sweep of the Pats. With Jones and Cox up the middle, there wasn’t much room to run. Unfortunately, the best team in football was in the AFC and played home in the AFC Championship game.
Yeah. I hated that year everybody started wearing Jet’s jerseys when I was sporting one when we were 1-15. I miss Cox. Glad he is coaching with us. We would have killed the Falcons.