Has Tannenbaum Met His Match?
Thanks to sec108 for sending this on … after “trading” for Dewayne Roberton, the Broncos seem adamant about the fact that they will be looking to keep Robertson fresh for the fall, and on the field less than 65% of the time.
“ it’s virtually guaranteed he will play less than 65 percent of the snaps in games. Staying below that threshold means the Broncos won’t have to give the Jets a 2009 draft pick.”
It’s a good sales job that the Broncos front office is putting on, nothing quite like underpromising and overdelivering. If Robertson doesn’t suck and they use him more than 65%, then the pick is justified. We all know Robertson can play every down, but you’d have to wonder if he could play more effectively if just in spurts …
Well, the most important thing for the Jets was getting Robertosn off the books, if they could get anyone to give up anything for him, it was a plus. If they do use him sparingly, my thought is that it will be for passing situations / third down and then work forward from there.
If the Broncos really are jerks enough to do this, there’s only one way this work out.
My prayer, is that the Bronocs go 9-7 and lose out on the playoffs on the one play where Shannahan pulls Robertson to the sidelines so they wouldn’t give up a late round pick …
53 Responses to Has Tannenbaum Met His Match?
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pat d says:
Mangini insisted on playing D. Robertson and J. Vilma in the 3-4 defense. That was like forcing a square peg into a round hole. As a result their production dropped to the point that they almost gave these players away. I mean Vilma was a pro bowler and Robertson could have been on his way there. This demonstrates the stubourness of Mangini. Know your strengths someone once said. Mangini not getting rid of these players when their valve was high shows a lack of judgement. I hope D Robertson does well and I think Denver would be making a mistake by not playing him just to save a late draft pick.
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al says:
pat d,
I disagree, We had one long term 4-3 building block in vilma. Robertson was average at best and never going to make the pro bowl. The reason they got nothing for him is because he can’t pass a physical in the nfl and his carrear is almost over with his bone on bone condition. Nodody in their right mind would have traded vilma after the progress he showed in the second half of the first season they played 3-4. Mangini has learned the 3-4 under parcells/belichek for a decade why wouldn’t he stick to what he knows. He never coached 4-3. Why start now when the talent wasn’t very good anyway.
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ramble914 says:
It was worth it just to get his $11million salary off the books.
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Fred says:
We couldn’t trade away Roberston that early because we would be throwing away SO MUCh money. And Vilma still did a solid job in the 3-4 as the leader of our defense and was definitely a key factor to bring us to the playoffs in ’06.
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droseatwork says:
vilma is no harris
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You may disagree but the Jets got squat for two first round picks. Mangini messed up Robertson’s career. I think Robertson will have a good year in Denver.
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droseatwork
Don’t be surprised to see Vilma in the pro bowl again.
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what happened to jetchick
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many first round picks walk out the door, there was no way the team was going to hold them hostage and franchise them then trade … it would have backfired for two players who have chronic injuries.
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Harlan Lachman says:
Bassett, I completely disagree. Good franchises try to get value for valuable players and the best usually do.
The mistake with Vilma and DRobb was holding on to them too long. At least with Vilma, the trade had a reasonable upside and downside.
The DRobb trade was stupid, dumb and cheap. We were not forced to trade him when we did. Denver played hardball and we caved. I complained about this earlier so rather than beat a dead drum, I will just say we should have insisted on a lower threshold for picks or not made the deal.
Worst come to worst, no other team loses a a 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT during the preseason and we have to cut him the last day. Of course if we lose Jenkins or Ellis or Coleman, we could have been the team that decided we had to have him.
Saving the $3 mil bonus was no reason for making the trade. We already pissed away two #1 draft picks for the guy and millions. We should have held out for reasonable compensation.
harlan
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dakar says:
i wouldn’t be suprised if vilma made it to the probowl…in fact i hope he does…so we can get a 2nd rounder for him…as for d-rob…mangini couldn’t trade him in 06…as fred said…it would have cost us alot of money…now if denver wants to limit d-robs playing time to save a draft pick in next years draft is pure stupidity…it would make no sense since he’s probably gonna be their best DT they have…just my thoughts…
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stevek says:
Another thing we can wish for is for Denver to have numerous injuries on their defensive line so they are forced to play Robertson. I mean you never want to wish an injury to a player or players but the way Denver is acting, they would deserve it.
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Reprocity says:
With Kansas City and Oakland in their division they could eek out four wins easy without playing D-Rob even though he will be their best DT. Sad but true… Denver is the type of team that gets popular real quick and guys like Lynch make the probowl. He will look real good on their line because there’s no Abraham or Ellis to outshine him.
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TimNY says:
I’m willing to bet DRob has a very good season in Denver – he’s a much better player than people give him credit for, in spite of his knees. That said, arguing to hold out for better than the Broncos offered is naive – there were no other real bidders for an expensive player with likely poor longevity.
While I think he’ll have a very good ’08 season, I suspect he’s out of the league in 2 years.
Finally, Shanahan’s a winning coach: He might hold out a player from some plays for his health, but when push comes to shove, the best players will be in there. losing yards for a draft pick is a loser mentality and Shanahan’s not a loser.
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DRob was going to cost $11million this year, just the savings to the cap alone made the deal prudent.
Denver has crap for D lineman, there is no way they are going to sacrifice this season by mothballing DRob, just so they won’t have to give us a draft pick. Shannahan is on the hot seat, he will do whatever he has to win, including playing Useless (DRob) til he his knees fall off.
As for Villma, screw him, if he was truly a good and versatile LB he would have made it work here.
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ramble is right, our main goal was to just get rid of him before June 1st so we wont have to pay him 3 million, and 11 million total for the season. I mean we HAD to get rid of him, and best possible scenario is we get a 3rd rounder. Good deal for the Jets.
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Part D,
Mangini should keep a bad 4-3 so that vilma and D-Rob who was never good don’t move positions. C’mon.
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swizzle says:
this 4-3 talk should stop at some point, its as if the Jets were a top 5 D in that defense, they were not. As for Vilma, yeah he could make tackles, but how come Harris has more career sacks in 15 games, 5 sacks, then the overrated, the “U” product ,2.5 sacks in 55 games. Vilma will not be missed on this team, if the Jets can get a 2nd rounder in next years draft, it will be a steal. The Jets held on to Vilma an extra year cause of money and to make sure Harris was/ is a stud. As for Drob, ive never had any problems with him, it looks like he gave it his all but he was in the wrong system, his contract was also egregious, he should pretty good in Denver. I dont think Shanahan will be dumb enough to keep his best D-lineman on the bench.
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Vilma and Robertson were both in the wrong system.
I didn’t say Mangini should keep a bad 4-3. I said if you want to play the 3-4 then get the personnel for the 3-4 instead of forcing something that just wasn’t going to work.
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P in CO says:
We’re talking about the Denver Post! They have Woody Paige, one of the biggest gasbags in the business.
If D-ROB can play especially against the run, he’ll get a lot of snaps. The Broncos have two superb cornerbacks in Champ and Dre. Their rush defense is putrid. Who cares what the Jets get, if they get anything at all. If it’s a 6th or a 7th pick the Dynamic Duo will probably draft a player who won’t last long in the NFL anyway.
Anyone remember Titus Adams?
I didn’t think so.
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P in CO umm it could be a 3-rounder if he plays 65% of the plays. And shutup everyone with this 4-3 crap, we’re playing in the 3-4 now, and it looks like we finally have the right tools to be a succesrful defense. We have a fantastic LB core and probably a superb NT in Jenkins, Coleman had the most takcles in the league for DE, Sean Ellis is a solid player all around, and our DB’s are solid (Rhodes and Revis will be great this year, obviusly the other CB and safety position are up for grabs,) but even with NO pass rush, our pass defense was still 9th in the league!
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subwayfare says:
Harlan, I completely disagree. Just because “We already pissed away two #1 draft picks for the guy and millions” is no reason to piss away another 3 million. That is the epitome of throwing good money after bad. There’s no hard evidence the market for D-Rob and his bad knees would have been any better a year ago. In fact, trades for D-Rob were rumored at the draft last year and none got done. Could it be that the same knee problems and fat contract, one year longer, scared away all suitors? As for where he was drafted and what what picks were given up to get there, when businesses asses the value of their assets based on what they paid rather than on what the current market dictates they get into big trouble. That is allowing an emotional attachment to a decision made years ago handicap one’s ability to judge the present on the cold, hard facts. The Jets have a ways to go to be considered a “good franchise,” but they are on a better track towards that goal than they’ve been for most of the team’s history. Good franchises do get good value for good players but they also know when it’s time to cut bait.
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burf says:
Always fun to see debates like this.
People are missing one big thing – - the important date for Mr T, wasn’t June 1st, it was Day 1 of the Draft.
Whether, or not, DRob was on the team, had huge implications on how we approached the draft. Chances are, if DRob was still here, we wouldn’t have drafted Ghoulston, and instead traded the pick… and the Pats would now have Ghoulston.
Tannenbaum sets things up, to maximize flexibility in approaching the draft.
Cutting our losses on DRob, helped create that. -
Wow, Brian… it posted ;)
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What I read here and elsewhere was that as long as Drob makes the team we get a late round pick (6th I think). If he plays 65% or more of the time we get up to a 3rd rounder. This was after the initial thinking that we get nothing if he plays under 65% of the time – remember that the Jets FO always makes the trade seem worse at first so that we (the fans & media) are happy when the true deal gets revealed. Does the Denver Post have it wrong?
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pat d,
How do you figure that Mangini forced something that wasn’t going to work? He has only had two seasons to evaluate the team, one of which we went to the playoffs. Two seasons is about right to determine what you have and don’t have and then make changes, which is what he did. If 4 or 5 seasons had gone by without making the changes then I can see the critisizm.
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NYC PE,
I read/heard the same thing, that we get a 6th rounder if he makes the team. It could be as high as a 2nd round if he palys 80% of the snaps.
Just getting his salary of the books and the 6th rounder make it a good deal.
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PMD says:
cut Tannebaum a brake … Robertson was useless in the system. Who nows how long the guy will play, 2 maybe 3 years … if we kept him he eats up 10 percent of our cap and this for a guy who would be a back to Jenkins. Don’t forget if there is “value” he’ll get it. J Abraham for a 1st round that oh by the way turned into a guy who stays on the field and should be a pro bowl player, what’s his name? oh yeah, Mangold.
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you guys down here are funny. Did you read the article? There was some confusion right after the trade, but the pick is conditional on Robertson playing 65% of the snaps for the defense. The reason the Broncos are so certain it won’t happen, is because they rotate the D-Line there, almost like a hockey team. It’s because of the high altitude. And, as one commenter here pointed out, if D-Rob is slightly over the 65%, they pretty much just need to sit him out the last game of the season. If they are in the hunt for the playoffs and Robertson is a decisive factor, they couldn’t care less about the 6th rounder they gave up.
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I would put this article in the same catagorey as teams losing on purpose for draft position… Cant say it doesnt happen but there is just too much money at stake to not try their best and put the best players on the field. Having said that though I think Herm threw the Kansas city game last year.
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Yea Joe, we read the article, and we dispute it. I read elsewhere the the Jets get a 6th rounder if he makes the team, it plays out to as much as a 2nd round pick if he plays 80% of the defensive snaps.
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Thanks, Ramble. That was my point Joe, that the article is wrong. I guess that some of the writers in Denver went to the same Cimini, Cannizario school of print what sells, not what is.
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Big A says:
Swizzle, pat d, i agree with both of you. Vilma failed in the 3-4 where Harris excelled. Part of me says we should have gutted the team of any 4-3 players that didn’t fit the system and gotten some value for them and not prolonged the inevitable.
Ramble, true, just getting rid of DRob’s $$ off the cap was worth it even if we don’t get the pick.
Fred, Ellis is not your proto-typical DE in a 3-4. He’s too small. That’s why he saw some time at OLB at the end of last season.
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ramble914
You are right two years is not too long of a period to evaluate the players on the team. It was obvious from day one that the players were undersized to play the 3-4.PMD
Mangold may make the pro bowl but a center should not be taken in the first round. -
Big A, I know hes not your protypical size (probably 10-15 pounds undersweight, although he is 6’5 and has alwasy been known for his strength as opposed to athleticism) but Ellis can hold his own at the position. I mean 6’5 285 really isn’t THAT undersized, but he can also put pressure on the QB at times (Pittsburg) and is defintely a good taclker with some quickness.
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I’d take a C like Mangold at the end of round 1 anyday! There are NEVER 32 players with first round grades and look at other players like Mawae and Dermonti Dawson! Now on the other hand I wouldnt take a kicker in the 2nd.
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Fred, I’m looking at areas of improvement where players are sized right for the position they play in a 3-4. Ellis’s has great size for a 4-3 DE, but he does give up some ground playing in the End position in our defensive scheme. It’s the Jenkins-DRob situation but on a smaller scale.
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I hope Ellis doesn’t become the newest Vilma and Robertson mistake. Ellis is a good player but if he dose not fit the system we need to trade him now. Or maybe in two years we can get a 6th round pick if he plays 65%.
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I don’t think you can classify 6-5 and 285 as undersized for a 3-4 DE. I’m willing to bet Ellis’ weight is more around 290 to 300 lbs, which IMO is ideal.
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Ramble, do you see Ellis as being effective against the run? It appears to me that he is marginally effective. I think DE is an area that we can improve and should be addressing. I’d be interested in seeing what kind of player Ropati Pitoitua might be. I know he had some character and durabissues in the past, but at 6’8″ 290 lbs., he might hold some promise there.
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evilempireWI says:
Seriously,
To everyone whining about how we invested so much into these players and should have held on to them for that reason, I would just like you to know that’s the most irrational reasoning available and I hope you never get into investing in… anything. There’s this little idea called sunk costs you may have heard of. That’s what D. Rob and Vilma were. We invested heavily in the past and miscalculated. Vilma was actually a sound investment, giving us multiple years of production and then he was simply caught in an ideological shift that saw him head in other directions. D-Rob was one of the greatest draft blunders of Jets history. Two first-rounders for next to nothing in long-term gain. The current administration’s biggest mistake was thinking they could get him to be effective… anywhere. Denver’s crappy D-line may improve slightly, hopefully enough to justify them playing Robertson often, but thinking Robertson is better than he is is the reason we dumped so much money into him already.
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James in TN says:
Never take a kicker in the second round, or a TE in the first round. Ummm …. Too late.
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For those who criticize Mangini for “trying to fit a square peg in a round hole”, remember that every single coach bringing in a new or unique system to a team must go through these growing pains.
According to your rationale, Mangini should have taken his defense, that has achieved great success elsewhere, and canned it, while playing a defense that he was hired to coach in the first place.
Yes, as someone mentioned much earlier in this thread, if there was more talent/more 4-3 chips than just Vilma, maybe there’d be a viable argument. But they weren’t great and there weren’t many chips.
Anyway, this whole debate will be put to the test this season. Mangini finally has the pieces in place that appear to be appropriate for the running of his defensive schemes. Their success — or lack thereof — will determine whether the past two “restructuring” years on D were worth it, playing the 3-4 with mostly 4-3 players. They’ve got their 3-4 guys now!
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Dsmizzle what you said is true, but I really do not like our defensive coordinator Bob Sutton. We tried getting Ryan from Oakland but goddamn Al Davis prevented that.
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Big A,
I see Ellis as being marginally effective against the run. But I don’t think it’s because of a lack of size, 6-5, and 290 is, IMO, ideal. I think Ellis is somewhat of a disappointment, considering he was a first round pick. He has not played at a high enough level and has not given us the production we should have gotten. He’s been on the team now for 8 years and I would have to say that he has been average at best.
If he does not pick up his game this year, I think he would be ripe for the ax, one way or another.
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Bill Bellichick wasn’t successful at first in New England with his defense… keep in mind that these guys all take time to implement their systems/get players who fit.
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Let’s see if anybody steps up and challenges Ellis then. After all, the best players will play…
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Bill Bellichick wasn’t sucessful until Brady became their starting QB.
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DSmizzle says:
Name any coach with a truly unique system (e.g., Shanahan’s incredible zone blocking scheme, Mike Martz’s [at one point] unstoppable offense while coordinating on the Rams, Billy B’s defensive schemes with Troy Brown getting quite a few interceptions in an emergency, Bill Parcells’ game of tearing down entrenched veterans on a team and beefing up the O and D-lines), and realize that implementing these concepts isn’t something that happens overnight.
Typically, truly taking the necessary steps towards implementing these plans requires a short-term sacrifice, having players play out of their ideal roles b/c they don’t quite fit the new system. You gotta slowly, but as fast as possible, replace them.
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Jason says:
Vilma will be a pro bowler again in the next 2 years, D-Rob will be in a rotation Denver will utilize him if he can play to the level that he did out of college, they will play him regardless what they say, remember they would rather make playoffs then retain a pick. As for the JETS both players are reminders from the Herm Edwards era and we want to forget it as fast as possible, implementing a 3-4 is not an easy transition, but better now then later, and that is true that the devil Billy B did not have the success without a QB that couldn’t control the field, they struggled with Drew B. who certainly scored points but terrible with controlling the field.
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tommiesmithjohncarlos says:
Couldn’t both the Jets, and Robertson himself, file a grievance against the Broncos if they artificially intentionally restricted his playing time in order to avoid reaching a contractual stipulation?
I’m pretty sure there are rules against that sort of thing. If he’s healthy, playing well and on pace for 67% of the snaps and then all of a sudden in December he falls out of the rotation and ends the season at 62%, that’s got to be against league rules. I’d be shocked if that’s not something the Broncos could at least be taken to arbitration over…
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Biebs says:
For those thinking the Jets should have held out…? Did you forget that Robertson failed two physicals during the offseason (He was almost traded to the Bengals, after all).
How in the world were the Jets going to get compensation after that. Also, the Jets defense wasn’t good the last time they were in a 4-3. The borrom line is that Vilma nor Robertson are cornerstones for the defense and both have detioriating injury conditions, which will likely slow them down over the next 3 years… Are those the guys you really want to build a defense around? Guys with chronic knee problems.I would have liked the Jets to get more for both players, but I don’t think it was realistic once Robertson failed his physical and once Vilma announced he hadn’t even started running yet in February.
I don’t know. I wonder if this is really just speculation on the part of the beat writer? If Robertson sucks in Denver, then so be it. But, if he is good and productive, then why would they knowingly hurt their chances of winning games just to protect a draft pick?