West Coryell: The Running Game
As we’ve stated before, although the papers have been telling us there’s a change in the air when it comes to the Jets’ offense, no one has really specified what those differeneces might be. In this series, we are exploring different aspects of what you might see this summer from the Jets offense, something we are affectionately calling the “West Coryell,” an amalgamation of vertical downfield offense (Air Coryell) combined with the ball control passing game of the West Coast.
So aren’t these offenses mutually exclusive? Not necessarily so, there was once a time when a passing based ball control offense was considered oxymoronic, we now know that as Bill Walsh’s West Coast. In this series we will explore certain aspects of how the two systems can be combined.
Another of the biggest differences between the Coryell and the West Coast is the running game. In the West Coast, runners serve more as extensions of the passing game, be it in pass protection, in their abilities to catch the ball out of the backfield or to take advantage of spread defenses — think Brian Westbrook. In the Coryell, runners serve as power backs who run behind power schemes and pound the ball making gains to set up longer passes.
To understand more about the running in the Coryell and how it opens up opportunities for big downfield completions, and vice versa. A few years back, Mike Martz in an interview with Dr. Z of CNN/SI said:
“That’s another thing that’s critical to the system. Power running. You’ve got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you’ve got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn’t have gotten Marshall we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who’s good at picking his way through. Stephen Davis is doing that in Washington now, and that’s a big reason why their offense is so good…The good thing about zone-block running is that you can keep pounding away. You don’t have the negative yardage plays.”
Thomas Jones is that guy. Jones isn’t a home run threat on every play like Faulk was, but he’s got the power and vision. In a year where the team ranked 28th overall in running the ball, and Jones was 46th in DPAR, and the line unit was 21st overall when running, Jones still managed 1,100 yards.
With the new additions to the offensive line, the team will be more versatile running to the left or the right (they mostly ran right in 2008) and will be able to create gaps and holes for runners to pound away at the defense. Thomas Jones and the team’s new Fullback(s) will be keys to the success of this added power running element. Looking at his splits from last year (which aren’t a great repesentation because of the line) Jones is known for his getting better when defenses are worn down. He’s a grinder, but he never got to grind much in 2007.
Will the Jets use more finesse zone-blocks in 2008? In some plays, to be sure. But in adding two offensive line starters, a new Tight End in Bubba Franks and a run blocking specialist in Tony Richardson, opponents’ defenses will have to respect the run of this team.
57 Responses to West Coryell: The Running Game
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Johnny Styne says:
Bassett — How can there be any non-decoy aspect of a vertical downfield offense if Pennington is the quarterback?
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lou says:
This being the case I think KC would be a better candidate to send the ball downfield… Is this a sign of who the Jets are looking at going with as their QB for next season?
I remember it was Schott who interviewed and spent a lot of time with KC when they were scouting the QB. Maybe he is molding the offense to take advantage of KC skillsets…
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Brad says:
A little off topic- but just read this post on another site!
Why Kellen Clemens shouldn’t be labeled a Failure!
A. Kellen led us to 3 victories in 7 games and it should have been 5 if Jmac (Baltimore) and Cotchery (Washington) could catch.
B. His receivers overall dropped tons of passes that hit them in their hands. Smith and Cotchery especially.
C. Our coaches who have access to game film, play calls, correct read progressions, and etc. only blamed 5 of his INTs on him. For a guy starting behind a terrible OLine, 5 INTs that are his fault in his first ever 7 games is not bad at all.
D. 40% of our starting OLine from last year was so bad that they were cut by us and NOT SIGNED by a single team in the league! This is not the situation you want to throw a kid making his first career starts into and Kellen handled it very well. When the rest of the league tells you that 40% of your starting OLine doesn’t even belong in the NFL then your QB’s are in a totally unfair situation.
E. Our OLine was significantly upgraded this year with the signings of Faneca and to a lesser extent Woody since he is not on Faneca’s level, but he must be a significant upgrade from Anthony freaking Clement.
F. Clemens played all but one game without our best WR Laveraneus Coles and had Brad Smith starting alongside Jerricho Cotchery. Smith is awful and wound up losing his starting gig before season’s end due to being pathetic and Wallace Wright began playing along side Jerricho in 2 WR sets.
G. He showed a ton of poise and leadership leading multiple 4th quarter comebacks & drives (B’more, Washington, Pittsburgh, Kansas City).
H. None of us know anything about his pocket presence because he never had a pocket to show presence in. For everytime he had happy feet there was another time he hung in there till the last second and took a monster hit while delivering a completed pass. He did that multiple times vs. Washington, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland.
I. If Clemens was in this year’s draft, and he had the Sr. year he had his Sr. year at Oregon and did not break his ankle he would have been a higher rated prospect than Matt Ryan was since he had both better stats and a better arm. Even if you want to debate that, he was surely a first round pick in this year’s draft. He just happened to break his ankle and come out the same year as Vince Young, Matt Leinart, and Jay Cutler. Even with those high profile QBs and an injury that limited him at the combine he was still an early 2nd round pick his year.
J. Our coaches could be in a make or break year and felt they saw enough from the kid to not go out and draft a high priced rookie QB. Again, they are the guys who had and have access to all the game film and play calling, etc. and they were willing to hang their hats and their careers on this kid’s ability to play the QB position.
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sec108 says:
Hats off to Brad for begging SackDance99 to post a rebuttal about his least favorite midget QB.
I want to be a Clemens believer myself, although I am far from sold on him right now, but a few things about this “post from another site”.
Yes the Oline was bad, but Adrien Clarke was actually signed by another NFL team (I believe it was Baltimore?), and I’m quite sure Clement will catch on with someone if as nothing else but depth. Not that either of them should start for anyone but the most depleted and desparate but your point might be a bit overstated.
I would not say he showed “a ton of poise” either, sure there were times he hung in there and took a hit a to complete a pass, and there were also plenty of times he got happy feet well before the rush arrrived and either took off running too early, threw a pick, or short armed a pass to an open reciever a few yards away from him.
Don’t read to much into the coaching staff not spending a 1st or 2nd rounder on him, with the amount of money we have invested in the qb position right now this really wasn’t fiscally possible without dealing Chad, and even then it would require a heavy investment in a future QB. The fact that they declared it an open competition tells you all you need to know about their feelings on Clemens, and its not exactly “hanging their hats and careers” on him.
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Craig says:
Chad played with the same offensive line as Kellen and put up solid numbers.
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Everyone is saying start KC because he has the stronger arm. That is really his only asset. And you can’t even call it an asset if Chad gets more yards on average every time he drops back to throw (more YPA).I think we should go with the guy who gains more yards on the football field when he drops back, not the guy who just throws the ball farther on the playground.
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RK says:
Chad can’t go vertical so if he’s the QB it will be more West Coast than Coryell.
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JustAGreenGuy says:
Craig. All of Chad’s yards are YAC. His numbers were not solid. He did play a couple good games tho. Chad is nothing more than a placeholder at this point. If KC isn’t the guy they will find someone in 2009.
It is hard to let go. He is a great leader and a hard worker. He is only getting worse tho. Unless his ankle was a year long injury Chad is gone sooner than later. I have so much Chad memoribillia that I shudder to think how to redecorate.
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Bent says: Nitpick: I view Air Coryell as a variant of a “West Coast Offense”, although the term “West Coast Offense” is usually assumed to mean the Bill Walsh style short passing spread-the-field type offense these days.
So, really, this is a combination of two variants of the West Coast offense, perhaps with a more power running focus (although I might dispute that, because I think with Faneca on board we will see more pulling and blocking in space).
And the Jets are an East Coast team, so instead of adding West to Coryell (which is a variant of WCO anyway) shouldn’t we be repping the East Coast to take into account our own slant on this offense?
Instead of West Coryell, it should be East Coryell-Walsh…ECW! Maybe we can incorporate trash cans and singapore canes into the offense too.
On the whole, I think you are onto something…they are building an offense that could be almost as flexible as the defense they are also building. Let’s hope it features several elements that are effective against certain teams and in certain situations, rather than a bunch of elements, none of which are that effective (ie last year’s offense). It does look like we’ve upgraded a lot on paper.
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SackDance99 says:
On verticality. Who exactly is the Jets’ deep threat? I don’t see Torry Holt or Isaac Bruce out there (or, for that matter, Chalie Joiner, Wes Chandler or John Jefferson). This offense is the San Diego offense. Power running, with a full back, and a pass-catching TE in WR sets (Chris Baker had over 70% of his receptions in WR sets…now, we know why Keller was a priority). The San Diego offense is not a vertical passing offense. So, I see no reason why Chad (if he’s in 2006 form) couldn’t march the Jets down the field in beautifully boring 10 minute drives.
As for KC, there are so many things wrong with Brad’s post, that I will only deal with one. The idea that KC would’ve been a 1st round pick if he had a full senior season. In some ways, KC’s unknown buzz potentially raised his draft profile. For instance, he had never cracked the 60% completion percentage barrier (hey, it’s not my metric, it’s from Football Outsiders, so don’t get on my case) until his senior season, which was a “breakout season” for him. But, what if he had ended his season on a sour note? Or, if he had done poorly at the Combine or in the college all-star games? KC was considered to be a 3rd or 4th rounder and his private workout raised his “buzz” level so much that the Jets traded up in the 2nd round to get him. But, because I’m accused as a KC hater, here’s what Scouts, Inc. had to say:
Clemens played sparingly as a freshman in 2002 but he has been a fulltime starter since his sophomore season in 2003. As a junior in 2004, Clemens completed 59.9-percent of his attempts for 2,548 yards with 22 TDs and 10 INTs. He also rushed for 190 yards and four TDs. Clemens was having his best season as a senior in 2005 before suffering a season-ending ankle injury versus Washington. In eight games prior to the injury, Clemens completed 64-percent of his attempts for 2,406 yards with 19 TDs and four INTs. He also rushed for 228 yards on 69 carries. Clemens has flown under the radar for much of his collegiate career because of his team’s struggles and a system that did not fit his skills. However, prior to his injury, Clemens blossomed in his first season (2005) under new coordinator Gary Crowton. Clemens slimmed down and showed improved quickness and mobility. He has a strong arm and can make all the throws. He also is intelligent and hard working. However, Clemens still has a lot of room to improve in terms of his consistency, patience and accuracy as a pocket passer. He will need lots of polishing at the NFL level and there is no guarantee that he will ever improve enough in those areas to compete for a starting job. However, he shows enough upside because of his physical tools, competitiveness and work ethic to take a chance on in the third-to-fourth round range of the 2006 draft.
Now, notice that huge caveat at the end there? Haven’t we just seen a guy with 2 NFL training camps under his belt just show that he still “needs lots of polishing”? Didn’t we just see, repeatedly, a lack of “consistency, patience and accuracy as a pocket passer”? KC’s problems might be hard-wired into his DNA as a QB and guys with problems like that are not 1st round picks.
So, since OTAs and training camp are extended “private workouts” in faux game conditions, I expect KC will show that strong arm and quick release. But, all that means nothing because, in game conditions, KC just might not have the tools to be an NFL QB. I saw 2006 Chad lead the Jets to 10 wins and a playoff berth with an awful OL and running game. I’ll take 2006 Chad over the risk of KC as an NFL starter.
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Why are my posts always stuck in the “moderation” queue? Very annoying.
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seanmac says:
YAC yardage counts every bit as much as yardage through the air, folks.
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If we throw the ball 5 extra yards and they still get YAC that is 5 more yards. Good recievers will always get YAC it just depends where on the field they get the ball.
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Bent says:
Sorry, Sack, I don’t know if it’s because you cut and pasted a block of text or because you used a ton of quotation marks or just that the system doesn’t like you for whatever reason, but we do try and catch them and add them as soon as we can!
With regard to your post (and I agree seanmac’s comment too), I agree, there’s rarely anyone open deep for Chad to throw to, so he will check down and throw short instead. It’s not often you see him throw deep into traffic (think about it – most of his picks tend to be on inaccurate passes over the middle or underthrows to the outside).
It’s easier to complete passes down the field when you have big receivers who can go up and get it (Brady Quinn made himself into a 1st round pick by dinking and dunking 90% of the time and throwing it up for grabs the rest of the time), so maybe Keller and Henry will help here.
I don’t think Chad is physically incapable of throwing downfield (it’s zip on the intermediate routes that is a problem, he’s shown a few times that he can air it out), he is just reluctant to do so which could be for many reasons: (a) doesn’t want to risk interceptions (b) doesn’t trust his arm (c) doesn’t trust his receivers (d) he’s short sighted (e) he wants to lead the league in YAC. Who knows?
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I know this is crazy. I’m tired of beating the dead horse tho.
Chad’s tools are diminishing and KC may be clay that we are asking to be marble (in sculpture terms).
Chad can throw deep and every friend I have laughed when he tossed his “bomb” last year. If the safety hadn’t bit on the play action (Bengal’s D making a mistake. Perish the thought) that play doesn’t happen. He helped blow a 13 point lead in that game too. He throws Pic 6s like they are a good thing.
KC is skittish, short, lacks poise, and young.
All things considered let them compete. Sack you said in one of our previous convos that Chad is great in practice. Then he should have no problem then.
Will people stop saying Chad was great in 2006. He had a good comeback season and was the whole offense, but he put up a goose egg on Jacksonville. Our competition wasn’t great either.
In both cases, KC’s 2007 and Chad’s 2006, their wins came when the D stepped up. In my opinion KC got victimized by clutch drops, but we sucked so bad two more wins meant nothing.
I lean more towards that they both suck than try to say Chad is anything but a good QB who got too smacked around.
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Oh yeah that bomb was in the air so long I went to teh bathroom b4 the TD.
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My point against YAC is that it inflates yards. When some one throws a 2 yd pass to a back on 3rd &15 they might get 13yds. Those yards are just padding it was.
How many years have you watched this team and thought who the heck throws a 5yd pass on 3rd &7?
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JAGG – no one is more sick of the throwing a 3 yard out on 3rd and 5 than me, seems like its been our bread and butter since the Coslet era, but to lay that all on the QB is a bit unfair. Every play is designed to have a check down safety valve receiver, the fact that we hit him to often might not be the just the QB. Did the line sustain blocking long enough for the QB to get through his progressions? Did the 1st, 2nd, etc. options create enough separation to warrant a throw? Did the defense successfully take away those options because we are boring and predictable? None of these reasons really pertain to the QB unless you want to say that his arm is to weak to use the small window the receivers and oline are granting him, or the offense is so vanilla because the QB has no arm. I am sure you could get arguments for and against both.
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I know defense and I understand the check down reciever. I have been surrounded by football my entire life.
My point is that this is our bread and butter. I would take a 50 yd interception over a 45yd punt. When our line does hold up we throw the short pass. It is all we throw. Leon deserved to be MVP he gave Chad all his passing yds in the first buffalo game. I blame the play calling just as much but our O gets our recievers killed. They are either leaping for an 8 yd grab or running through traffic. We are a check down team. It is a safety valve not the core of the offense.
The QB is the one who ultimately makes the toss. The checkdown maybe a smart throw, but it doesn’t win games often.
Brett Favre (who is not my personal fave) made a career on taking risks. Give me an incomplete ten yd pass over a complete checkdown that leads to a punt.
You don’t need to be a cowboy like Brett was but for god sakes just once make the throw.My original reason for this rant is that all these passes do is skew statistics. Winning games is the goal, not QB rating. They are of course tied. Chad had a better rating then Eli but that doesn’t make the Jets SB champions. 40 years this year.
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JAGG- That’s why you should look at DVOA, which is explicitly designed to take out padded yardage. You get credit for getting 40% of the necessary yardage to convert on 1st down, 65% on second down and 100% on 3rd or 4th down- i.e. any throws on 3rd of 4th down that don’t result in a first down are considered unsuccessful plays. And according to DVOA, Chad Pennington was about four times better than Kellen Clemens.
Incidentally, it’s not true that good receivers will get identical YAC regardless of where they catch the ball on the field. Different routes are designed to allow for different levels of YAC, and a receiver who catches nothing but slants is going to generate more yardage than a guy who catches nothing but comeback routes. In any event, the receiver who has a quarterback who completes 68% of his passes is going to generate more YAC than the one who completes 52% of his passes, even if those passes are further downfield.
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Do people just read one post form their entire arguement off of it and ignore eveyrthing else that is said?
Of course they wont get the exact same YAC. I also could care less about YAC if we get First downs and TDs.
Routes are childs play to understand. I have played Madden. Completion precentage also has nothing to do with where Chad’s yards come from. His completion percentage means nothing. He had two incompletions in the first half of the Titans game. They were both interceptions. The 15 or 16 straight completions against Buffalo led to three points. Yay completion percentage.
I know stats. I know how easy they are to manipulate (you can find a correlation between peanut consumption and typhoons). If Chad or KC had a rating of 100 and still produced 4 wins combined I wouldn’t care.
They both sucked. Chad is maxed out and he wont lead us to the promise land unless we have the 85 Bears’ or another comparable defense. Our offense is boring and is easy to game plan against. (The Pats scouting report says chad can’t throw outside the numbers. Asante Samual, Leon Hall and Arron Ross might agree)
KC adds a new ripple but may never achieve anything.
In the end they only stat that matters is wins. Chad is a place holder at best now. Enjoy the QB competition.
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JAGG, I’m a big believer in the importance of QB, but I’m a bigger believer in the notion that a good running game is the best foundation for a successful offense. The Jets (as a team) had a higher YPA (6.50) than the Giants (6.21) last season (and both were in the bottom third). But, the Giants average rush was 4.6, good for tie at 3rd best, but the Jets were tied for 5th worst at 3.8 yards. On offense, the Giants running game got them to the playoffs and an en fuego Eli got them through the playoffs. I’m optimistic about this season because the running game and defense should be greatly improved, I just don’t want the QB to frack things up and I think KC is the more likely candidate to be the fracker.
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BTW Kurt Warner was close to Chad in completion percentage. Who would you rather have behind center next year? A former superbowl MVP who can still put up over 20 touchdowns or someone who can’t even dip and dunk as well as he used to?
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Reprocity says:
One of the big differences last year was when KC got in the passes arrived in time so the receiver could turn up field or protect themselves. I know this is not a fair but I think Chrebet would still be playing if it were not for Chad’s arm. LC is next if Chad starts next year. I would love to see KC have to throw 20 passes a game like Rothlessburger did his rookie year. I would also agree with Brad that a lot of those INTs were not his fault. When KC came in last year the flood gates were already open. We had no respect and teams were going to attack us with out fear and the only team it back fired on was pittsburg. All the stats last year for Offence are pretty much useless.
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Sack.- Scary to say this but I see your point. The running game is huge. KC may be the likely fracker, but I’d rather some one frack it all up and get us the early pick. Than be Mediocre. I know what Chad is capable of. I was against pulling him last season, but he didn’t do much to affirm my faith. KC may be a waste, but I haven’t seen him play enough. Who ever wins the QB competition is my QB.
Chad has a tendency to hang people out to dry and I don’t want any more concussions.
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JAGG and Reciprocity, the favorite WR for any QB takes a beating. Jericho got his finger broken and missed the Miami game because KC was locked in on him and he was getting blasted. Also, he was shaken up with a shoulder injury during the Baltimore game. Safeties tend to tee off on a QB’s favorite WR, and KC was locked on to Jericho (Burress didn’t bear up to well either as Eli’s favorite). IMO, if KC had been able to complete over 60% of his throws, Jericho would’ve gotten, at least, a Level II concussion or with an injured shoulder and broken finger in only 7 starts with KC, maybe he would’ve broken his leg or hip?
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I didn’t see any real difference in the damage the receivers took based on the quarterback, and I think there’s a good reason for that- they weren’t open.
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ramble914 says:
KC will throw for 25 TD’s/10 ints. and 3500 yds. this season, while leading the Jets to a 11-5 season.
You can take that to the bank.
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I agree they tee off on the main target. Do you remember the 2nd Miami game in 06? Where the amazing football analyst Tony Kornheiser could see how Chad was hanging people out to dry. I’m not saying it will always lead to injuries. The guys on the field are tough, but it is more likely to lead to worse injuries. KC’s accuracy led to him commiting another problem where he was leading them into big hits. KC has more of an excuse IMO and hopefully the spin about him practicing his accuracy means he wont get someone killed. Chad’s floaters are killers and always have been. Keep your own opinions of course.
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Incidentally, we’ve got what look to be our final projections done over at FO (might be tweaked one more time). Here’s what we’re expecting from the quarterbacks:
Clemens: 262 of 454 for 3099 yards, 22 TDs, 17 INTs, 57.7%, 5.79 Net Y/P
Pennington: 278 of 445 for 2876 yards, 22 TDs, 16 INTs, 62.6%, 5.58 Net Y/P
Which is to say, the whole sturm und drang about who is going to be the quarterback is much ado about nothing, as they’ll put up very similar numbers.
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I like my numbers better.
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Bubba Franks praised the Jets QBs (and primarily Chad) for throwing “catachable” balls during the OTAs. He complained about how Favre only knew one speed, fast, and he barely handle Brett’s passes. In theory, a soft toss could make the DB tentative because if he hits the WR too early, it’s a penalty. So, who knows. I think it’s probably impossible to attribute any injuries to one QB over another. I thought Kornholio was terribly unfair to Chad that game. It was a driving rain storm with high winds; yet, Chad still completed a beautiful long strike down the middle of the field to Jericho for the clinching score. Chad is what he is. He doesn’t have a plus arm, but when he’s on, he carves up an opposing defense with accurate short to medium range passes. As I’ve said before, if Chad doesn’t have his 2006 arm or better, then he can’t be an NFL QB. Too bad the alternative is KC.
seanmac, I think the numbers are wildly optimistic for KC, but why the big difference in net y/p between the two?
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Main target theory? how about Marvin Harrison? Hines Ward, Moss, Keyshawn, Irving, TO, all favorite targets of QBs who didnt get them killed. DB’s hit with rythm pending on how the receiver is moving. Id rather have a rocket come my way and the split second to brace for impact than the hospital pass.
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seanmac,
Numbers aside, don’t you think KC brings a few more intangibles than CP does, such as mobility, and arm strength? And, if their numbers are similiar, wouldn’t those intangibles make him the better choice?
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seanmac, those projections line up pretty well with my anecdotal observations that CP and KC looked pretty equal over the season,so they must be right!
ramble914, i dont usually think of either of those things as intangibles, but i guess they are in the sense that they aren’t quantified by passing yardage — but CP is kind of the king of intangibies, right? attitude, leadership, takes responsibility, has won some playoff games – KC better hope its not a question of intangibles
what I dont understand is commenters are perfectly happy to project wild-ass numbers for Stuckey, B Smith, Gholston, pretty much everybody, but nobody will be optimistic about the guy who used to be our best player, had some bad injuries and now appears to be healthy. Most likely Clemens is going to start, but mangini is not so foolish to just throw Chad away like you “fans” want him to. At the very least, he is showing Chad Pennington an appropriate level of respect to a guy who has been the most important Jet in the 21st century. That kind of respect is rare in this billionaire’s league, and its one of the reasons I really like Mangini.
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CP earned his respect a long time ago. I think we owe it to him to let him go start some where else if he doesnt win the job this summer.
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joe,
The intangibles you listed for CP are IMO necesary for any QB to be successful, and no doubt CP has all those in spades. KC will need every one of those if he is to be a quality NFL QB, lets hope he displays it if he wins the competition.
The Jets organization owes CP all the respect it can muster. The guy played hurt, re-worked his contract so L. Coles could return to the club, worked his butt off so he could return and help the team, and has never complained or embarrased the club when he wasn’t happy.
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They held my comment. Grr!! As for intangibles, I think the hardest thing KC has to get past is CP’s leadership. IF KELLEN CLEMENS WINS THE STARTING JOB CHAD PENNINGTON MUST BE CUT OR TRADED!! I don’t see guys that have played with man with the character of Chad Pennington to fully back KC with Chad lurking in the shadows. If KC wins it is KC’s team. Hand him the keys and if he fails draft (Insert new top prospect here).
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Reprocity — Name the team (not even limited to the NFL) where Chad starts –
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I wouldn’t start him in Buffalo. Edwards looked like the real deal.
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Reciprocity, I just don’t agree with your “soft tosser” theory. Lots of main targets miss games or more like: Hines Ward, TO, Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald, all of the Lions WRs, Plaxico, etc. Al Toon was more a victim of being a tall target over the middle on a rock-hard field than any “soft toss” bs. If your game as a WR is to go over the middle, LBs and safeties will tee off on you. Period. Jeremy Shockey has played his career with hard-throwing Eli and still has suffered from post-concussion syndrome. I just do not see the correlation. WRs, QBs and DBs suffer the most from concussions. It’s just an NFL fact.
ramble914, I think you have it backwards. Arm strength and mobility are “tangibles” and easily measured, so they are called “measurables.” KC has the “measurables” (except for height and accuracy) over Chad. Chad has the “intangibles”: attributes that are more a matter of opinion than fact like: decision-making, pocket poise, defense-recognition, leadership, etc. Chad has more “intangibles” than KC.
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droseatwork says:
Sack,
Chad had 2 years on the bench behind Vinny to learn and develop into the QB he is today. He also was part of a much better team then KC had to grow into.
Intangibles are things that we all talk about. KC had some good years at Oregon and I think that he can grow into a solid QB. To compare the team that CP had when he came and the team that KC has now is two totally different scenarios. Chad is also a vet so I expect him to have a deeper understanding of the game. Chad’s whole career is based on his mind and not so much on his outstanding physical talents. -
They do suffer from concussions, but you are less likely to get a concussion when you arent mid air for the catch, do a flip and nail your head on the field. Catching it while in route injurys are just a part of the game.
Think about the pass from Bollinger that killed Chrebet. Chad throws one of those a game. Coles and Cotchery are tough guys.
BTW I miss Chrebet he had a brain bruise and still held on to the damn ball.
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Joe,
I would also add Tennessee, Washington, Oakland, Green Bay, Detroit, oh, and quite possibly New York. Both teams. Really.
All that said, I’m not arguing that Chad should or shouldn’t start. Let the two guys fight it out for the job and leave it at that.
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Bent says:
Hee hee. Sack said “Tosser”.
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Bent, a Brit friend of mine told me that “tosser” is akin to an a-hole. But, judging from your response, there might be another connotation.
Drrose, I posted Scouts Inc.’s analysis of KC coming out of Oregon above and, honestly, his years there were not awesome. For straight numbers, Ainge was better (an unconscious 67% completion percentage in 2006 (best in Vols history), followed by a still very good 62% in 2007) and was in a better conference. KC’s big issue are the intangibles: “Clemens still has a lot of room to improve in terms of his consistency, patience and accuracy as a pocket passer.” So, you can say all you want about giving KC a chance, but recognize the problems he had last year were not issues that popped up solely because of the Jets poor OL, these problems are part of the baggage that he carried with him into the NFL. Nothing he did in 2007 has led me to believe that he has shed any of this baggage; in fact, he may have added a couple of Samsonites, without the rollers.
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JAGG, if Chad is so dangerous to WRs, then why did Jericho injure his shoulder and break his finger with KC as the tosser (Bent, that was for you)? Your theory is a good slam on Chad, but there’s no factual foundation for it. WRs get injured, especially going across the middle, and the Jets offense puts the WRs in vulnerable positions. The QB is irrelevant.
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Sack- Let them play.
Before the draft your hate made sense. We had a real opportunity to change things.
Ainge will not be the starter this year. He is nowhere near ready.
All we can do is sit back and watch. I’m sure we everyone who frequents this site knows your opinion on KC. Plus if you are wrong you are going to eat major crow on this one.
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Sack- I’m talking about concussions. Did Jerricho get a concussion? No
I understand the middle is like swimming with sharks, but we don’t have to put chum in the water by having them in mid air when they get knocked.
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Bent says:
Pretty much, Sack, although it’s more of a silly insult than outrageously offensive.
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JAGG, let them play? Meaning let the competition go forward? Sure, I’ve never said otherwise. And, I’ll only eat crow on this one if KC lifts the Lombardi Trophy over his head because every down that he plays while the Jets don’t have a QB capable of leading them to the Super Bowl is a waste. Many here think that I’m a Chad supporter. No, I just think that the Jets are wasting their time with KC. Chad’s just a better “hold the fort” guy until a bona fide NFL QB gets put on the roster (and I’ve said over and over we don’t know if Ainge is or will ever be that guy…I just wanted to point out that his college numbers were, on balance, better than KC’s). I’ve said this before, if KC beats out Chad, then cut or trade Chad, save the cap money and make a run at a QB later.
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I know you aren’t a Chad supporter.
I say you should eat crow if KC puts up numbers more like Rambles prediction. Superbowl is the end goal, but the way you portray KC he will walk on the field, trip after the snap and get up but only to throw a pic because he couldn’t see over his line and missed his target by a mile.
If KC sucks screw him we can get someone else.
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JAGG, I hope I’m wrong about KC. KC was blessed with a cannon arm, a quick release and good mobility. But for his height, he’d be a top notch prospect. I just don’t know if he has all the other skills to be an NFL QB. KC could be, along with Brees and Garrard, one of the best under 6-2 QBs in the NFL. Unfortunately, I think there’s a ceiling that comes with that distinction, but if he puts it all together, he’d be better than Chad because Chad’s limitation–the inability to throw all the deep throws consistently and accurately–puts Chad’s ceiling even lower. Problem is that Chad can play at his ceiling (all he has to reach is his 2006 proficiency), but we have no idea what KC’s ceiling is and if it’s not several floors higher than what he showed last season, then he can’t be an NFL QB or, stated differently, he’ll be more Rex Grossman than Drew Brees. I know there are some fans who would prefer a Rex Grossman clone to Chad because they are fed up. I would agree with them if I thought we’d get 2007 Chad, but I think Chad can rebound to his 2006 level. If not, to quote you, screw him and let KC start.
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Sack,
Your 3:31pm post was the first time I ever heard you throw KC a bone, good for you!
My feeling is last year wasn’t enough to say that KC can’t do it, he needs another chance, if he dosen’t do it after that…screw him, put in Ainge.
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seanmac, i meant to add green bay and forgot to, but missed detroit. The other teams are all true too, but I think all of them have political issues that prevent a new starter this year.
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And none of these teams offered anything for him? — If they did, then why haven’t we heard about it? — Not just from the FO but from the media? — All we’ve heard about publicly is that Chad’s people approached the Jets to trade him — Word zero about any of the teams mentioned above having any interest in Chad –
As far as I am concerned it is all about the QB, and Schottenheimer, time will tell