Comments on: Film Room: Chris Baker Sounds Off http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/ Ranting and Raving about the Gang Green Sun, 12 Feb 2012 08:20:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87821 SackDance99 Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:35:29 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87821 seanmac, put Franks in the Jets offense and he's better than Baker. He's taller, has as good, if not better, hands, and is as fast. Plus, like I said, Franks was the TE in a pure West Coast offense, he wasn't the 3rd WR option...his patterns would never have been as deep as Baker's. The problem with focusing on stats alone is that it makes one conclude something that no NFL player personnel would ever conclude: that Baker is and has been the better TE and it's only receptions that make the difference. Plus, you also sound like Buddy Ryan, who traded Chris Carter because "all he can do is catch the fade in the endzone." Being a redzone target is part of what makes a TE valuable and TDs are dynamic, right? Plus, maybe Bubba's stats are skewed because he's better built for the 2 yard receptions, which is critical for little things like 3rd and short first downs and TDs or 2-point conversions. Bottom line, Bubba was a better TE and in the Jets system will be as good as, if not significantly better than, Baker. And, I think so, Mangini thinks so and Schott thinks so. As Adam Schein reported on Jets Nation, the Jets FO views Baker as the no. 3 TE...which is all I've been saying. seanmac, put Franks in the Jets offense and he’s better than Baker. He’s taller, has as good, if not better, hands, and is as fast. Plus, like I said, Franks was the TE in a pure West Coast offense, he wasn’t the 3rd WR option…his patterns would never have been as deep as Baker’s. The problem with focusing on stats alone is that it makes one conclude something that no NFL player personnel would ever conclude: that Baker is and has been the better TE and it’s only receptions that make the difference. Plus, you also sound like Buddy Ryan, who traded Chris Carter because “all he can do is catch the fade in the endzone.” Being a redzone target is part of what makes a TE valuable and TDs are dynamic, right? Plus, maybe Bubba’s stats are skewed because he’s better built for the 2 yard receptions, which is critical for little things like 3rd and short first downs and TDs or 2-point conversions. Bottom line, Bubba was a better TE and in the Jets system will be as good as, if not significantly better than, Baker. And, I think so, Mangini thinks so and Schott thinks so. As Adam Schein reported on Jets Nation, the Jets FO views Baker as the no. 3 TE…which is all I’ve been saying.

]]> By: pat d http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87780 pat d Sat, 07 Jun 2008 01:53:45 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87780 Great debate SachDance99 and seanmac. But seanmac wins. Great debate SachDance99 and seanmac.

But seanmac wins.

]]> By: seanmac http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87762 seanmac Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:25:16 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87762 A more dynamic player? Hardly. He averaged 9.0 yards per completion on his career to Baker's 10.6, and his yards after the catch mark is more than a yard less. Franks has more touchdowns because he's a bigger guy who can run two yards and turn around in the end zone, which is nice, but that's not exactly the definition of dynamic. Franks has 94 starts and 114 appearances, while Baker has 37 starts and 83 appearances. Franks was targeted for He's got better numbers because, frankly, he was a first-round pick who was an every game starter for his first five years, while Baker was a third round pick who spent his first few years stuck behind an incumbent tight end. But in terms of how they produced when they were on the field, there isn't much to choose from between vintage Bubba Franks and current Chris Baker. Actually, that's not true- Franks has had 391 balls thrown at him to accumulate his 256 receptions and 2300 yards, while Baker has had 178 balls thrown at him to accumulate his 124 receptions and 1311 yards. Give Baker the same number of looks that Franks has and at his current rate of production, he'd have better numbers than Franks. A more dynamic player? Hardly. He averaged 9.0 yards per completion on his career to Baker’s 10.6, and his yards after the catch mark is more than a yard less. Franks has more touchdowns because he’s a bigger guy who can run two yards and turn around in the end zone, which is nice, but that’s not exactly the definition of dynamic.

Franks has 94 starts and 114 appearances, while Baker has 37 starts and 83 appearances. Franks was targeted for He’s got better numbers because, frankly, he was a first-round pick who was an every game starter for his first five years, while Baker was a third round pick who spent his first few years stuck behind an incumbent tight end. But in terms of how they produced when they were on the field, there isn’t much to choose from between vintage Bubba Franks and current Chris Baker. Actually, that’s not true- Franks has had 391 balls thrown at him to accumulate his 256 receptions and 2300 yards, while Baker has had 178 balls thrown at him to accumulate his 124 receptions and 1311 yards. Give Baker the same number of looks that Franks has and at his current rate of production, he’d have better numbers than Franks.

]]> By: Derrick http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87742 Derrick Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:21:44 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87742 The jets are always treating thier playes like crap when it comes down to money. I think the Baker is a key part to this team, since they (jets) was making lots of players rich this offseason, i think he should get his also. The jets are always treating thier playes like crap when it comes down to money. I think the Baker is a key part to this team, since they (jets) was making lots of players rich this offseason, i think he should get his also.

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87725 SackDance99 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:53:25 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87725 seanmac, since I'm not an FO devotee, how about these stats. In 9 seasons, Franks has caught 32 TDs; Baker in 7 has caught 12. Franks has made 131 First Down catches, and Baker has made 79. Franks has 256 receptions, Baker has 124. Franks has 2,300 yards and Baker has 1,311. And, I believe matching Franks' first 7 years against Baker's, because Franks was injured in 2005, had a terrible 2006 and was beaten out in 2007...his 3 worst years, would be more indicative of their respective strengths. Or, match their 5 best seasons. Also, no matter what FO's stats say, Franks at 6-6 is a better redzone threat than Baker at 6-3 and one of the primary functions of a pass-catching TE is redzone TD prowess. As for relative strength of QBs, doesn't that cut both ways? Favre spread the wealth around and the Pack often had 2 TE sets, while Baker has been, for the most part, the no. 3 receiving option for the Jets the last 3 seasons. Gonzo still got his numbers despite the KC QB carousel...it really depends more how the TE is used in the offense. I could go on and on, but Franks at his best was a more dynamic player and a redzone force. Period. Now, I think you're saying that the Jets won't be getting Franks at his best, but he's only 30 and was lightly used last season. IMO, Franks' ceiling is just higher than Baker's and if he can approach that ceiling again, he'd be better than Baker. And, I just don't think a healthy Franks' numbers would differ materially from Baker's and I am kind of surprised that you disagree. I mean, isn't TE one of the most fungible positions in football once you get below the elite? seanmac, since I’m not an FO devotee, how about these stats. In 9 seasons, Franks has caught 32 TDs; Baker in 7 has caught 12. Franks has made 131 First Down catches, and Baker has made 79. Franks has 256 receptions, Baker has 124. Franks has 2,300 yards and Baker has 1,311. And, I believe matching Franks’ first 7 years against Baker’s, because Franks was injured in 2005, had a terrible 2006 and was beaten out in 2007…his 3 worst years, would be more indicative of their respective strengths. Or, match their 5 best seasons. Also, no matter what FO’s stats say, Franks at 6-6 is a better redzone threat than Baker at 6-3 and one of the primary functions of a pass-catching TE is redzone TD prowess. As for relative strength of QBs, doesn’t that cut both ways? Favre spread the wealth around and the Pack often had 2 TE sets, while Baker has been, for the most part, the no. 3 receiving option for the Jets the last 3 seasons. Gonzo still got his numbers despite the KC QB carousel…it really depends more how the TE is used in the offense. I could go on and on, but Franks at his best was a more dynamic player and a redzone force. Period. Now, I think you’re saying that the Jets won’t be getting Franks at his best, but he’s only 30 and was lightly used last season. IMO, Franks’ ceiling is just higher than Baker’s and if he can approach that ceiling again, he’d be better than Baker. And, I just don’t think a healthy Franks’ numbers would differ materially from Baker’s and I am kind of surprised that you disagree. I mean, isn’t TE one of the most fungible positions in football once you get below the elite?

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87724 SackDance99 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:26:03 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87724 Reciprocity, what I was trying to say was that there's no single thing that Baker is great at. Franks, whatever his shortcomings, was always a great redzone threat at 6-6. Nobody will ever say that Gates is anything but a terrible blocker, but that won't prevent him from making the HOF if he continues his trajectory. Baker's a solid all-around player. I'm not killing him for that because his attitude and work-ethic kept him on the team. But, now that he could become a clubhouse cancer, I think the negatives outweigh any positives. I also think that there are positions, because of scarcity, where just being average is in itself valuable, like CB, QB or pass-rushing DE. I just don't think TE is one of those positions because it's a plentiful and undervalued position. To me, Baker's playing the flop with pocket 7s. Reciprocity, what I was trying to say was that there’s no single thing that Baker is great at. Franks, whatever his shortcomings, was always a great redzone threat at 6-6. Nobody will ever say that Gates is anything but a terrible blocker, but that won’t prevent him from making the HOF if he continues his trajectory. Baker’s a solid all-around player. I’m not killing him for that because his attitude and work-ethic kept him on the team. But, now that he could become a clubhouse cancer, I think the negatives outweigh any positives. I also think that there are positions, because of scarcity, where just being average is in itself valuable, like CB, QB or pass-rushing DE. I just don’t think TE is one of those positions because it’s a plentiful and undervalued position. To me, Baker’s playing the flop with pocket 7s.

]]> By: seanmac http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87721 seanmac Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:20:17 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87721 I'm sure I posted them elsewhere, but here are Baker and Franks' DVOA numbers since Baker became the starter: Baker 2003: DPAR 1.5 DVOA 3.1% (just 18 throws, though) 2004: DPAR 5.3 (20th) DVOA 14.1% (14th) 2005: DPAR 9.3 (13th) DVOA 47.5% (1st) 2006: DPAR 9.7 (12th) DVOA 20.6% (5th) 2007: DPAR 12.1 (11th) DVOA 19.8% (10th) Franks: 2003: DPAR 3.2 (25th) DVOA 1.5% (23rd) 2004: DPAR 11.4 (10th) DVOA 20.1% (8th) 2005: DPAR -1.2 (36th) DVOA -17.8% (37th) 2006: DPAR -6.5 (43rd) DVOA -30.2% (42nd) 2007: DPAR -1.1 (35th) DVOA -18.1% (35th) Not only has Baker been better, but it hasn't been close. Franks has been one of the worst tight ends in the league, and was the third best tight end on his own team the last three years. And all this is while Baker has had five different quarterbacks of largely indifferent quality throwing to him while Franks has consistently had a Hall of Fame quarterback. Franks' two best seasons were back in 2001 and 2002, which is to say his second and third years in the league, he was on a powerful team, and even so, they were comparable to Bakers performance, if perhaps a tad better. And there's no reason to think we're getting that kind of player. Bubba Franks was signed to be Patriots-vintage Kyle Brady, nothing more. He's big so he may get some looks down on the goal line, but that's really all he's bringing to the table. I’m sure I posted them elsewhere, but here are Baker and Franks’ DVOA numbers since Baker became the starter:

Baker
2003: DPAR 1.5 DVOA 3.1% (just 18 throws, though)
2004: DPAR 5.3 (20th) DVOA 14.1% (14th)
2005: DPAR 9.3 (13th) DVOA 47.5% (1st)
2006: DPAR 9.7 (12th) DVOA 20.6% (5th)
2007: DPAR 12.1 (11th) DVOA 19.8% (10th)

Franks:
2003: DPAR 3.2 (25th) DVOA 1.5% (23rd)
2004: DPAR 11.4 (10th) DVOA 20.1% (8th)
2005: DPAR -1.2 (36th) DVOA -17.8% (37th)
2006: DPAR -6.5 (43rd) DVOA -30.2% (42nd)
2007: DPAR -1.1 (35th) DVOA -18.1% (35th)

Not only has Baker been better, but it hasn’t been close. Franks has been one of the worst tight ends in the league, and was the third best tight end on his own team the last three years. And all this is while Baker has had five different quarterbacks of largely indifferent quality throwing to him while Franks has consistently had a Hall of Fame quarterback. Franks’ two best seasons were back in 2001 and 2002, which is to say his second and third years in the league, he was on a powerful team, and even so, they were comparable to Bakers performance, if perhaps a tad better. And there’s no reason to think we’re getting that kind of player.

Bubba Franks was signed to be Patriots-vintage Kyle Brady, nothing more. He’s big so he may get some looks down on the goal line, but that’s really all he’s bringing to the table.

]]> By: Reprocity http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87719 Reprocity Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:17:53 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87719 I will say that an agnry TE is one step up from an idiot kicker :) I will say that an agnry TE is one step up from an idiot kicker :)

]]> By: Reprocity http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87718 Reprocity Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:15:42 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87718 Sack, I get what you're saying but wouldnt avg skills mean he's an avg TE? I think people harp on franks because of where he was drafted in the 1st round and Baker was drafted perfectly in the 3rd. I will disagree and say Baker has the best hands on the team and he's always been held back due to poor line play and system. No one finds it wierd that Baker isnt saying how much he wants? He's venting right? Everybody knew Kendall wanted 1mil! Sack, I get what you’re saying but wouldnt avg skills mean he’s an avg TE? I think people harp on franks because of where he was drafted in the 1st round and Baker was drafted perfectly in the 3rd. I will disagree and say Baker has the best hands on the team and he’s always been held back due to poor line play and system. No one finds it wierd that Baker isnt saying how much he wants? He’s venting right? Everybody knew Kendall wanted 1mil!

]]> By: SackDance99 http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/05/film-room-chris-baker-sounds-off/#comment-87716 SackDance99 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:12:36 +0000 http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4392#comment-87716 And, barring injury, Franks is a mortal lock to make the final roster. The Jets need a 6-6 redzone receiving threat. And, barring injury, Franks is a mortal lock to make the final roster. The Jets need a 6-6 redzone receiving threat.

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