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	<title>Comments on: No Room At the Trough For Baker?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/</link>
	<description>Ranting and Raving about the Gang Green</description>
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		<title>By: Reprocity</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88267</link>
		<dc:creator>Reprocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88267</guid>
		<description>Bilal, I wouldnt consider that picking on my quote but more punctuating it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bilal, I wouldnt consider that picking on my quote but more punctuating it.</p>
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		<title>By: SackDance99</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88252</link>
		<dc:creator>SackDance99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88252</guid>
		<description>Bilal, Franks is only 30 and barely played last season.  With juniors coming out and red-shirt seniors, some NFL players start their careers 2 years older than guys in their own draft class.  It&#039;s ignorant to just say that 2 years of NFL football automatically means lots of wear and tear.  If that is the case, then the Jets better get rid of Thomas Jones, Alan Faneca, Damien Woody, Shaun Ellis, Tony Richardson, Eric Barton, David Barrett, Hank Poteat and Ben Graham because all of these guys are 30 or older and many of them have started more games than Franks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bilal, Franks is only 30 and barely played last season.  With juniors coming out and red-shirt seniors, some NFL players start their careers 2 years older than guys in their own draft class.  It&#8217;s ignorant to just say that 2 years of NFL football automatically means lots of wear and tear.  If that is the case, then the Jets better get rid of Thomas Jones, Alan Faneca, Damien Woody, Shaun Ellis, Tony Richardson, Eric Barton, David Barrett, Hank Poteat and Ben Graham because all of these guys are 30 or older and many of them have started more games than Franks.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilal</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88235</link>
		<dc:creator>Bilal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88235</guid>
		<description>&quot; I think Franks was losing his starting job in GB&quot;

Franks lost his starting job at the end of 2006.  Donald Lee was the starter last year for the packers, did you watch packer games?  They used about 5 or 6 receivers(WR/TE) consistently every game, and Bubba was not one of them.

Don&#039;t mean to pick on your quote I just feel like most Jets fans are excited about Bubba just because he was a popular TE playing with Favre, WAS being the key word.  

And to say Bubba is ONLY 2 years older is dumb, 2 years in the NFL is relatively a big gap, this isn&#039;t the NBA or MLB where players play for a long time.   He&#039;s two years older with a history of getting injured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; I think Franks was losing his starting job in GB&#8221;</p>
<p>Franks lost his starting job at the end of 2006.  Donald Lee was the starter last year for the packers, did you watch packer games?  They used about 5 or 6 receivers(WR/TE) consistently every game, and Bubba was not one of them.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t mean to pick on your quote I just feel like most Jets fans are excited about Bubba just because he was a popular TE playing with Favre, WAS being the key word.  </p>
<p>And to say Bubba is ONLY 2 years older is dumb, 2 years in the NFL is relatively a big gap, this isn&#8217;t the NBA or MLB where players play for a long time.   He&#8217;s two years older with a history of getting injured.</p>
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		<title>By: Reprocity</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88232</link>
		<dc:creator>Reprocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88232</guid>
		<description>A first round pick and a player with 3 probowls dam well better give us more flexibility. I think we disagree on why he was brought in. I think Franks was brought in so we could use 2 TE sets with actual TEs not a tweener like Keller. I think Franks was losing his starting job in GB and his injuries and age we a part of that. If you look at each players best year with Baker&#039;s being last year and Franks was like 6 years ago and even then its not that far off... though Franks did have 7tds that year to Bakers 3 or 4. I think Keyshawn was a perfect example of the value of a Red zone threat. Our 98 season would have never happened if him and Vinny didnt perfect that endzone fade route. With Injuries added with age, that leaves a player on the sideline but that doesn&#039;t mean more tread and less wear and tear... it means less tred to begin with and the rate of wear and tear increases dramatically. I will say this Sack, I think Franks will have more TDs this year but I&#039;m willing to bet Baker will be our starting TE.. if he&#039;s still around ;) While Baker might be a cancer... He&#039;s no Jessica Simpson!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A first round pick and a player with 3 probowls dam well better give us more flexibility. I think we disagree on why he was brought in. I think Franks was brought in so we could use 2 TE sets with actual TEs not a tweener like Keller. I think Franks was losing his starting job in GB and his injuries and age we a part of that. If you look at each players best year with Baker&#8217;s being last year and Franks was like 6 years ago and even then its not that far off&#8230; though Franks did have 7tds that year to Bakers 3 or 4. I think Keyshawn was a perfect example of the value of a Red zone threat. Our 98 season would have never happened if him and Vinny didnt perfect that endzone fade route. With Injuries added with age, that leaves a player on the sideline but that doesn&#8217;t mean more tread and less wear and tear&#8230; it means less tred to begin with and the rate of wear and tear increases dramatically. I will say this Sack, I think Franks will have more TDs this year but I&#8217;m willing to bet Baker will be our starting TE.. if he&#8217;s still around ;) While Baker might be a cancer&#8230; He&#8217;s no Jessica Simpson!</p>
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		<title>By: SackDance99</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88203</link>
		<dc:creator>SackDance99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88203</guid>
		<description>Reciprocity, Baker has never started all 16 games in a season in his 7 years as a pro.  From 2001-2004, Franks started, at least, 14 games each of these 4 seasons.  Baker has only done that the past 2 seasons.  And, Franks, at 30, is only 2 years older than Baker and he has played sparingly the last 2 seasons, so there&#039;s tread on the tires.  In terms of odds, Franks has been injured, but is healthy now and has a track record of great TE play, especially in the redzone...why discount this fact?  The opposing defenses will have to worry about Franks in the redzone, which opens up many other options...it&#039;s a big deal.  Baker is an average TE, who has not helped the Jets awful redzone TD percentage and is now a malcontent.  Plus, what QB wouldn&#039;t want a 6-6 safety valve?  Chad&#039;s wild high passes won&#039;t be a challenge for Franks and Bubba&#039;s way easier to see for height-challenged KC.  I think the odds tip in Bubba&#039;s favor as the better TE for the Jets in 2008.  But, and I&#039;m not ripping your mom either, it&#039;s plain stupid to keep a clubhouse cancer like Baker, who never has backed up his big mouth with superior NFL play, and plays one of the most fungible positions in the NFL.  I&#039;m with Mike Tannenbaum on this one, bringing in Franks and drafting Keller gives the Jets way more flexibility at TE than Baker alone could ever provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reciprocity, Baker has never started all 16 games in a season in his 7 years as a pro.  From 2001-2004, Franks started, at least, 14 games each of these 4 seasons.  Baker has only done that the past 2 seasons.  And, Franks, at 30, is only 2 years older than Baker and he has played sparingly the last 2 seasons, so there&#8217;s tread on the tires.  In terms of odds, Franks has been injured, but is healthy now and has a track record of great TE play, especially in the redzone&#8230;why discount this fact?  The opposing defenses will have to worry about Franks in the redzone, which opens up many other options&#8230;it&#8217;s a big deal.  Baker is an average TE, who has not helped the Jets awful redzone TD percentage and is now a malcontent.  Plus, what QB wouldn&#8217;t want a 6-6 safety valve?  Chad&#8217;s wild high passes won&#8217;t be a challenge for Franks and Bubba&#8217;s way easier to see for height-challenged KC.  I think the odds tip in Bubba&#8217;s favor as the better TE for the Jets in 2008.  But, and I&#8217;m not ripping your mom either, it&#8217;s plain stupid to keep a clubhouse cancer like Baker, who never has backed up his big mouth with superior NFL play, and plays one of the most fungible positions in the NFL.  I&#8217;m with Mike Tannenbaum on this one, bringing in Franks and drafting Keller gives the Jets way more flexibility at TE than Baker alone could ever provide.</p>
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		<title>By: Reprocity</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88160</link>
		<dc:creator>Reprocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88160</guid>
		<description>Well Doc, Pociask... I hope he does get his chance. The one thing about football that I never liked is so many people never get a chance other than the preseason. I dont like roster limits and why I do agree it makes things more scientific, ie how many players at each position you keep, I just wish everybody could get a chance being out on the field with the best. Some people dont play 160 games in thier career yet some sports they do in a season. I was a Shane Spencer fan and I was bummed when he broke his shoulder and never really got a chance after that. Anyone remember him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Doc, Pociask&#8230; I hope he does get his chance. The one thing about football that I never liked is so many people never get a chance other than the preseason. I dont like roster limits and why I do agree it makes things more scientific, ie how many players at each position you keep, I just wish everybody could get a chance being out on the field with the best. Some people dont play 160 games in thier career yet some sports they do in a season. I was a Shane Spencer fan and I was bummed when he broke his shoulder and never really got a chance after that. Anyone remember him?</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor K</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88152</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88152</guid>
		<description>Love the post by JayM!  It really sounds on the money about this whole agent/player vs. management business.  Is there a book on NFL business/GMing much like &quot;moneyball&quot; for baseball/scouting?  

Hey Reprocity, we have Pociask!  Don&#039;t count him out as our TE, if/when Baker leaves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the post by JayM!  It really sounds on the money about this whole agent/player vs. management business.  Is there a book on NFL business/GMing much like &#8220;moneyball&#8221; for baseball/scouting?  </p>
<p>Hey Reprocity, we have Pociask!  Don&#8217;t count him out as our TE, if/when Baker leaves.</p>
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		<title>By: Reprocity</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88148</link>
		<dc:creator>Reprocity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88148</guid>
		<description>Actually I said &quot;a bit foolish.&quot; You would take an Older not in his prime player who has never started 16 games in his career vs some one who is younger and is a tad bit faster and has just as good hands not to mention he stays healthy does seem &quot;a bit foolish.&quot; I&#039;m not making fun of your mother here, I&#039;m just saying those odds dont work in your favor.  We need players who can start 16 games and make it through the play offs and guys like franks and Woody have shown the past coupple of years they cant do it. I WANT to be wrong on this! IF... Franks starts and goes the whole season and makes us forget about Baker, i would love it! Bad odds is all I&#039;m saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I said &#8220;a bit foolish.&#8221; You would take an Older not in his prime player who has never started 16 games in his career vs some one who is younger and is a tad bit faster and has just as good hands not to mention he stays healthy does seem &#8220;a bit foolish.&#8221; I&#8217;m not making fun of your mother here, I&#8217;m just saying those odds dont work in your favor.  We need players who can start 16 games and make it through the play offs and guys like franks and Woody have shown the past coupple of years they cant do it. I WANT to be wrong on this! IF&#8230; Franks starts and goes the whole season and makes us forget about Baker, i would love it! Bad odds is all I&#8217;m saying.</p>
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		<title>By: SackDance99</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88142</link>
		<dc:creator>SackDance99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88142</guid>
		<description>Reciprocity, I didn&#039;t say that Franks wasn&#039;t healthy.  The only knock on Franks is that after his injury he did not return to his pro bowl form.  I am assuming he&#039;s healthy and, if he is, then he&#039;s a better TE than Baker.  He&#039;s always been a better redzone target.  Read my post before pronouncing that something is &quot;foolish.&quot;  Also, Baker is not and has never been a better redzone or short yardage TE.  I have no idea where you got that from.  And, DSmizzle, quality of QB has little or nothing to do with how a TE performs...look at Tony Gonzalez, no matter who plays QB, Gonzo is a top TE.  Favre had many options and Franks only had more than Baker&#039;s 41 receptions once.  So, how did Bubba make the pro bowl?  Because he was a feared redzone target.  Look, tall, fast and good hands are all important for a TE.  Franks is taller has as good, if not better hands, and is, at worst, only a tad slower than Baker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reciprocity, I didn&#8217;t say that Franks wasn&#8217;t healthy.  The only knock on Franks is that after his injury he did not return to his pro bowl form.  I am assuming he&#8217;s healthy and, if he is, then he&#8217;s a better TE than Baker.  He&#8217;s always been a better redzone target.  Read my post before pronouncing that something is &#8220;foolish.&#8221;  Also, Baker is not and has never been a better redzone or short yardage TE.  I have no idea where you got that from.  And, DSmizzle, quality of QB has little or nothing to do with how a TE performs&#8230;look at Tony Gonzalez, no matter who plays QB, Gonzo is a top TE.  Favre had many options and Franks only had more than Baker&#8217;s 41 receptions once.  So, how did Bubba make the pro bowl?  Because he was a feared redzone target.  Look, tall, fast and good hands are all important for a TE.  Franks is taller has as good, if not better hands, and is, at worst, only a tad slower than Baker.</p>
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		<title>By: JayM</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2008/06/09/no-room-at-the-trough-for-baker/#comment-88138</link>
		<dc:creator>JayM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=4408#comment-88138</guid>
		<description>Taken from Cimini&#039;s blog. If Baker was so great why was he a free agent for 24 days with no one interested in him?


Insider&#039;s take on Chris Baker situation

The Chris Baker contract dispute has fueled a torrent of opinions, pro and con. I chimed in Thursday with my take, and Friday I received an e-mail from someone offering a different, yet compelling argument. This person does not wish to be identified, so we’ll refer to him as a “Former NFL Insider.” As you read it, you’ll discover quickly this person knows a little something about the business.

Here’s one person’s viewpoint:

“No team or front office, especially not Mike Tannenbaum and Eric Mangini, promises a player that if they go out and play well that they will rip up their contract and give them more money. This is a locker-room cancer that is promulgated by agents and certain locker-room lawyer players. In the NFL, like life, everything is about timing. The biggest difference in the NFL is that the time frame is reduced to “lately.” As in, what have you done for me lately? If your timing is fortunate, and you perform well when you have leverage - specifically, in a year near the end of your contract - you get paid.

“Baker was drafted in the 3rd round in 2002 and was paid accordingly on a 3-year deal. When his deal expired, he became a restricted free agent in 2005. Since Baker’s performance was little more than average during those three years, the Jets offered Baker what is commonly referred to as the RFA (restricted free agent) low tender. Baker received no offers from other teams, accepted the Jets tender and elected to play out his one-year contract. This is where timing comes in. Baker’s fourth year in the league, the 2005 season, was his big opportunity; it was his walk year. Baker played in only 8 games, had 18 catches for 269 yards with one TD. Injuries? That is part of timing.

“Baker hit the free agent market on 3/1/06. On 3/24/06, after 24 days of “testing the market,” Baker accepted a four-year deal from the Jets, which included a $1 million signing bonus and averaged $1.5 million per year over the first three years. Baker probably believed his future market value was depressed based by his lately (2006) misfortune. But the Jets invested in Baker anyway, and they gave him a $1 million signing bonus in return for a 4-year commitment. Baker did not have to accept this offer. If he truly believed in himself, he would have taken a one-year deal and bet on himself. He did not, but the Jets did and they pushed a $1 million bonus across the table to Baker as their “all in” bet. Baker took the money and left the table. Game over for 4 years. Baker cashed in his chips.

“The mistake the Jets did make is they tried to do “something nice” for Baker during the 2007 season. It wasn’t all charity, as the gesture also helped the Jets. The Jets moved $700,000 of 2008 salary into the 2007 season and gave that money to Baker one year sooner than he was due to receive it. They gave him the cash and guaranteed he’d get it even if he got hurt. No good deed ever goes unpunished. In return for pushing a $1 million in chips across the table to Baker and advancing him another $700,000 from future money, the Jets have to listen to Baker whine when the Jets go and out-recruit him.

“Baker needs to shut up and play - unless, of course, he is now finally willing to wager on himself, with his own money. He can stay away and try to force the Jets’ hand and convince them to trade him. The truth will come out based on the trade offers the Jets receive. If a team steps up with fair trade compensation to the Jets, and that team is willing to re-do Bakers contract, Baker wins his gamble. If Baker’s trade market in 2008 is like his free-agent market of 2006 - non-existent - his gamble will be a failure.

“Even more convincing, Baker could make an offer to the Jets to buy his way out of his contract to become a free agent. Like the Jets did in 2006, Baker could push his chips across the table and go “all in.” No more talking, no more whining, just putting his money where his mouth is. What Baker has to decide is what is a win for him. If there’s a sports book that would accept wagers on this action, the odds-on bet would be with the Jets on this one.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taken from Cimini&#8217;s blog. If Baker was so great why was he a free agent for 24 days with no one interested in him?</p>
<p>Insider&#8217;s take on Chris Baker situation</p>
<p>The Chris Baker contract dispute has fueled a torrent of opinions, pro and con. I chimed in Thursday with my take, and Friday I received an e-mail from someone offering a different, yet compelling argument. This person does not wish to be identified, so we’ll refer to him as a “Former NFL Insider.” As you read it, you’ll discover quickly this person knows a little something about the business.</p>
<p>Here’s one person’s viewpoint:</p>
<p>“No team or front office, especially not Mike Tannenbaum and Eric Mangini, promises a player that if they go out and play well that they will rip up their contract and give them more money. This is a locker-room cancer that is promulgated by agents and certain locker-room lawyer players. In the NFL, like life, everything is about timing. The biggest difference in the NFL is that the time frame is reduced to “lately.” As in, what have you done for me lately? If your timing is fortunate, and you perform well when you have leverage &#8211; specifically, in a year near the end of your contract &#8211; you get paid.</p>
<p>“Baker was drafted in the 3rd round in 2002 and was paid accordingly on a 3-year deal. When his deal expired, he became a restricted free agent in 2005. Since Baker’s performance was little more than average during those three years, the Jets offered Baker what is commonly referred to as the RFA (restricted free agent) low tender. Baker received no offers from other teams, accepted the Jets tender and elected to play out his one-year contract. This is where timing comes in. Baker’s fourth year in the league, the 2005 season, was his big opportunity; it was his walk year. Baker played in only 8 games, had 18 catches for 269 yards with one TD. Injuries? That is part of timing.</p>
<p>“Baker hit the free agent market on 3/1/06. On 3/24/06, after 24 days of “testing the market,” Baker accepted a four-year deal from the Jets, which included a $1 million signing bonus and averaged $1.5 million per year over the first three years. Baker probably believed his future market value was depressed based by his lately (2006) misfortune. But the Jets invested in Baker anyway, and they gave him a $1 million signing bonus in return for a 4-year commitment. Baker did not have to accept this offer. If he truly believed in himself, he would have taken a one-year deal and bet on himself. He did not, but the Jets did and they pushed a $1 million bonus across the table to Baker as their “all in” bet. Baker took the money and left the table. Game over for 4 years. Baker cashed in his chips.</p>
<p>“The mistake the Jets did make is they tried to do “something nice” for Baker during the 2007 season. It wasn’t all charity, as the gesture also helped the Jets. The Jets moved $700,000 of 2008 salary into the 2007 season and gave that money to Baker one year sooner than he was due to receive it. They gave him the cash and guaranteed he’d get it even if he got hurt. No good deed ever goes unpunished. In return for pushing a $1 million in chips across the table to Baker and advancing him another $700,000 from future money, the Jets have to listen to Baker whine when the Jets go and out-recruit him.</p>
<p>“Baker needs to shut up and play &#8211; unless, of course, he is now finally willing to wager on himself, with his own money. He can stay away and try to force the Jets’ hand and convince them to trade him. The truth will come out based on the trade offers the Jets receive. If a team steps up with fair trade compensation to the Jets, and that team is willing to re-do Bakers contract, Baker wins his gamble. If Baker’s trade market in 2008 is like his free-agent market of 2006 &#8211; non-existent &#8211; his gamble will be a failure.</p>
<p>“Even more convincing, Baker could make an offer to the Jets to buy his way out of his contract to become a free agent. Like the Jets did in 2006, Baker could push his chips across the table and go “all in.” No more talking, no more whining, just putting his money where his mouth is. What Baker has to decide is what is a win for him. If there’s a sports book that would accept wagers on this action, the odds-on bet would be with the Jets on this one.”</p>
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