Discuss: Is Gholston a Bust?
Since this is being discussed quite a lot, I thought I would give this subject it’s own “thread”.
Of course, the answer is it’s too early to tell. Allow me to remind you of my article comparing Gholston and Gaines Adams and to reiterate that VG came out a year sooner. I would imagine that Adams would have been similarly effective (ie inconsistent, with flashes of both ability and ineptitude) in preseason if he had come out a year earlier. Remember, Adams came on late in his rookie season (as did former Jets rookie linebackers David Harris and Jon Vilma, both of whom were more “NFL Ready” than Gholston).
By the way, Adams preseason stats as a rookie (with that extra year of seasoning in college): 9 tackles, two sacks, one forced fumble. If Gholston (13 tackles, but no impact plays) cannot match that *next* year, maybe you can start to worry, but I think they’ve been using him in coverage more because that’s where he needs to develop, whereas during the season, he will be called upon to rush the passer (and he did draw a hold doing that yesterday).
Yes, it sucks that the sixth pick is a work in progress, but this was to be expected from the moment he was drafted. So, the answer is “not yet”, but have fun debating anyway.
P.S. Before anyone suggest cutting or trading him, this would give rise to a whopping $21m cap hit!
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Bent, It won’t be long, before I am reminding you about how you created this topic on the blog. Rome wasn’t built in a day. If you think Gholston is showing all that he has, you are way off. See Mike Pelfrey.
Yea thanks for finally rushing to VG’s defense, he’s been getting sladnered (or is igt librled becasue its in writing?) on the comment boards here for a long time. I dont understand what people expect from him in the preseason of his rookie campaign. Its not like we need an immediate impacts from him, we have 2 fine olb’s in place(well maybe BT is only good in contract years). theres so much positivity going on wit the jets, this year, its sad half the comments here are trashing VG.
VG – Give the kid a chance he will get there. He is completely confused right now but he missed OTA and has never played this position before. All I have ever expected from him this year is to come in on obvious passing downs and rush the passer. If he can do that effectively this year then he is doing well. We should look at what he does next year when he drops back to make an assesment but I do not think we will see Gholston comfortable in coverage for two years. So be patient we will be rewarded at the end.
Anyways we do not need him right now since we have BT which I believe will do well this year…
Yea VG will be fine, he will begin to have an impact towards the end of the season where we need him the most
It took Pace 5 years and was considered a bust until last years breakout season and the JETS signed him to a record deal having done no more, so far in preseason he has looked worth the money. The problem is that we all as individuals learn and process things faster and slower and have our own internal talents to take in information and act on it. Gholston has the physical tools to be dominant as a DE or LB, he lacks the Technical aspect of the game and is trying to take in all the information needed to act on this or that. How many of us remember trying to learn to ride a bike, and falling off, time after time, or running into cars or mailboxes, our parents didn’t give up and say get off the bike your no good, on the contrary they encouraged us and we learned. Gholston has gotten on the bike, he has hit a few cars and mailboxes, but he will learn and when he does than the physical tools will kick in and he will be a force.
It’s far too early to begin playing ‘boom or bust’ with VG.
While the Gaines Adams example is a good one, I think an even better one would be Mario Williams of the Houston Texans.
Everyone assumed that Charlie Casserly was an idiot for drafting him number one ahead of Reggie Bush, and Williams’ early play didn’t do much to discredit that thought. But given the time to learn the system, Williams has since become a dominant pass rusher for what is otherwise an anemic Texans defense.
Time will tell with VG, but right now that’s what he needs most of all if he’s going to succeed.
VG is not just learning one new position this year, more like 2. VG lined up on most 1st and 2nd downs as the Strongside OLB (great post the other day) over the TE. I know I envisioned him as the Weakside OLB position (like LT) coming at the QB more regularly. On 3rd downs he did rush more (drew a hold on a speed rush), I’m pretty sure I even saw him come with a hand down, has a strong bull rush. With all the positional demands on a guy that left as a junior we should all expect him to come along real slow. We know Mangini needs his LBs to be interchangeable to disguise what their doing, be versatile, improve depth, etc.. They want him in uncomfortable spots in the preseason. You’ll see them put him in situationally, in comfortable situations, for the 1st half of the year. Its all good, he is fast and stout, which he showed on the run stuff, (he played it well by not committing inside). Its a process for this kid, which we knew going in. Be patient!
He is a DE in a 4-3 defense and his tremendous strength and speed is underuitilized playing coverage.
This CS will never be accused for being innovative any way. They made Vilma look ordinary too.
Guys-
I have never posted anything anywhere before, but have been “forced” to live in Houston but love my Jets. Please —-somebody with more time do some research on Mario Williams with the Texans. He was awful and clueless for two years and was called a bust from the draft on. Now look. I’d love to see VG be great right away, but don’t think he’s made that way. Some are some aren’t. We’ll know soon enough and bought Pace et al to buy time.
He is learning a new position in a new system. He played DE in a 4-3 in college. Now he is playing OLB in a 3-4. The man hasn’t even completed pre-season, and this question is being asked. NY is a tough crowd.
Harvlis – the reason I made this post was because people are asking the question. I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest he is a bust based on what we have seen and my previoius article demonstrates how he is perfectly on course to be a very solid player.
Please don’t mistake the fact that I created this topic to mean that I do actually think he’s a bust, but I prefer not to “lead the witness” when I create a topic, so I kept the original post as balanced as I could.
Note: I looked at the comparism of Mario Williams to VG, but Adams is a much better comparison. Their size, career arc, strengths and weaknesses entering the league and where they were drafted and the teams they went to are virtually the same. The only differences are that the Bucs play 4-3 and Adams stayed in school another year. Where the comparison favors VG is that his combine numbers were even better than Adams, so his athletic potential may be greater.
With Williams, he was a higher pick and is a totally different shape and style of player and therefore didn’t lend himself to as accurate of a comparison.
However, he is another good example of a player people were too quick to judge and if VG is as successful as him, all well and good.
PERSONALLY, I was giving GHOLSTON a HARD time YESTERDAY,but even I have too say that it is WAY to EARLY to say the guy is a BUST. i was giving him a hard time because I want him to be a BEAST! which HONESTLY,i believe he CAN/WILL be….I have been one of the BIGGEST kellen clemens SUPPORTER,but after RATTY’S and AINGES play yesterday COMPARED to KELLENS…im starting to wonder,is KELLEN a BUST(i STILL dont think so!)
Give him a chance. VG will be fine, he is not expected to start, thus giving him time to develop. I do not consider a draft pick a so called bust until year 3. First year they get there feet wet, second much more expected, third year is the year they get it or they dont. As we all know 3-4 defense looks damn complicated, if the Jets just use him on 3rd downs this year to start, VG will be fine.
I recommend watching the Giants game again where he blew up a double team to get to Eli a half second behind Pace and got good pressure on a bull rush a couple of other times. He also drew the hold on a speed rush around the RT last night. His raw ability is already an asset in straight rush situations and he’s likely to improve in setting the edge and coverage with experience. He’s playing a new position against stronger competition. There’s bound to be a learning curve.
The thing that will ultimately determine how much better he gets and how fast is his desire. Is he driven to play football and be the best he can be or is he a workout phenom who just wanted to translate his gym abilities into one big NFL payday? We won’t know the answer to that for at least another year or two.
I dont believe Gholston is a bust at all. Now if we hadnt gotten Calvin Pace i would be more upset, but i think we can afford to let him grow and it will pay off.
Before calling him a bust i think that we should ponder…if he had gone to the pats would we still be a bit wary about how much he would pain our offense for the years to come?
Roof, I had to study libel and slander for the NYS Bar Examination.
Nothing said on these message boards consistutes either libel or slander. Vernon Gholston is a public figure and people are commenting about what they believe his playing abilities to be on a football field.
I hope you were kidding man!
Love the new blog, but please…pre season is meaningless and this guy will take sometime to develop. See Mario Williams, not saying VG will be that good but it took that guy sometime to get his feet wet……
It is frustrating to watch Gholston. Learning a new position is not easy, but he has had a month to do it and he looks lost. He repeatedly loses contain on the edge and is not able to get pressure on the QB versus second teamers. He will never live up to to his #6 pick hype while Jerod Mayo will be a stud for the Pats for years.
well he might get 4 sacks this year but trust me he will jell the next season look at mario williams peaople started calling him a bust as soon as the texans past on bush but look whos the bust now
Dan – I know that, you know that, but some people on these pages have been asking the question, hence the discussion. Of course, some of those comments were maybe borne of frustration or impatience.
I know none of the TJB staff (particularly me) think he’s a bust. As my earlier article shows, I had been predicting a slow start for him and said that it was to be expected and shouldn’t lead to people calling him a bust.
I wrote that article in response to people saying he was going to start all year and register double digit sacks, which I felt was unrealistic for a player with his experience.
PS – Harvlis, I never doubted that Big Pelf was going to be good either.
I also must admit that some of my statements, at least in part, expressing concern that Gholston might be a bust were based largely on the over-optimism of fans who predicted 8-10 sacks this year for him.
Didn’t buy it then, and obviously I don’t now. The same people are saying “it took Pace 5 years”.
Well, far be it from me to put words in your mouths, but I’d imagine that if Gholston took until his 5th year to have the year that Pace had last year, it’d be a BUST insofar as the investment is concerned! Yes, the JETS got a very nice-looking player in Pace, but the pick definitely didn’t do ANYTHING for the ‘Cards!
Bent, I believe that you don’t think VG is a bust but, you made the cardinal sin for media guys — you started an unnecessary discussion that can only cause harm to a potentially great player. You started trouble, to get a response. Media guys start and proliferate trouble, to sell newspapers. As you can see, fans feel deeply about Gholston. The more the media harps upon his slow ascent, the more the unknowledgeable fans boo him for his every mistake, the quicker he gets run out of town.
I gotta say, despite being dissapointed I don’t see a 4 sack performance in every game, there are some signs of talent, for instance everytime he gets locked up, his bull rush seems to move the blocker back a few yards. he is also always where he is supposed to be just not in a great postion to bring down the ball carrier, I predict a vast improvement half way through the season
Rocky, this is a blog. It isn’t fair to criticize Bent for opening up a conversation that has been discussed … ON THIS BLOG!
Simply stated, no one is being mean to Gholston. If you are worried the guy might be a bust, the natural place to discuss that is on a BLOG! Since Bent is running a BLOG, he posted a “hot topic” on his blog as a question to the readership!
People have to toughen up! This is for JETS fans, not PROPOGANDISTS who have to lie about the way they feel so that he won’t be “ran out of town”.
Are you serious with that “loose lips sink ships” crap on a blog about our favorite team? Maybe we can set up secret meeting halls where people concenred about Gholston can talk without worrying about “running him out of town”!
Since we already know the answer is “Not yet” and moreover “Gimme a break, NO ONE is a bust at at his point in their career”, what’s the point in a debate?
DSmizzle, The same way that Bent can bring up any topic on this blog – anyone can say that it was a stupid topic.
If you think he is a bust – say it!
I would say back to you that, “if you can call a player a bust, after his first few pre-season games, after coming in late, while changing positions from a down lineman to an outside linebacker, as a ROOKIE – then you know jack-squat about pro football.
It is all about our opinions.
Yes, Harvlis, I see your point. My intention was that everyone would come on here and say “of course he isn’t a bust” to make those that feel he is one think again.
Maybe I could have headed the thing up “Opinion: Gholston is Not a Bust” and then I would be getting props, but my style is to be balanced in the initial post.
All along I have been the one who is saying “if he has a slow start (and he probably will), this doesn’t mean he is – or will be – a bust”, so it’s amusing to catch some heat for raising the topic.
I guess it is similar to when I raised the issue of whether Jets fans would boo Pennington next year. I wouldn’t, and nor would the majority, but there are those that feel the opposite way – and therein lies the debate.
I hope you see why I did it this way and I am enjoying everyone’s comments, so I feel happy with what I posted and glad that most commentors have drawn the same conclusion as me.
VG isn’t a bust and when they put him in comfortable situations until he gets used to falling back in coverage where he is having trouble he will be used as a pasrusher where he will dominate and get his 8-10 sacks…and cause problems for offenses this year…along with the rest of our LBs…this is my optimism and these are just my thoughts…
Vernon G doesn’t have a bust, he’s a man! Wake up people!
His HUGE upside warranted a high pick on him. Plus the value was there on pick #6 according to all the “experts” it was the right pick and like all good things, will pay off in time.
Gholston is not a bust he is a rookie playing a new position. The Jets made the right pick. It was a need and if they didn’t the Pats would have taken him. Then what would have all the negative people be saying right now.
Now Clemens is a bust and we can’t waste a roster spot on him with Mr. 253 consecetive games in a row on our team.
Are you kidding me? In no way shape or form is Gholston a bust, especially this short into his career. If Vernon Gholston was getting the Darren McFadden or Chris Long “NFL ready” hype coming out of the draft then there’d be reason for concern but the man’s been playing organized football for just over 5 years.
Gholston has gotten a lot of time in the preseason and has basically been thrown into the fire, being asked to do everything an OLB is asked to do and it’s clear he’s not ready to be an every down player yet. Here’s the thing though – DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Terrell Suggs. All were drafted in the top 15 and played the same position Gholston did and were instant impact players from day one, but they weren’t complete players from day one. Merriman still isn’t. They all did their work in pass rushing situations, and blossomed into complete players later on in their careers – same idea as Gholston.
I’ll use Suggs here as a more detailed example. Suggs won defensive rookie of the year in 2003. He had 12 sacks that year and also forced 6 FF. He played in all 16 games, but here’s the big stat – one start. Terrell Suggs started one game all year, yet had 12 sacks and won defensive rookie of the year. How? The Ravens knew that he wasn’t ready to be an every down player in the NFL, but due to his natural ability as a pass rusher they kept him fresh and let him loose on passing downs and the result was an instant impact from their top rookie.
It’s the same idea with Gholston. Don’t think for a second that when the lights come on and the games start to matter the Jets are going to play Gholston like they have in the preseason, basically throwing everything at him and seeing how he does. They’re going to use him in a situation where he best helps them win games, and that’s letting him loose and getting after the QB.
I would not be the least bit surprised if in December Gholston is leading the team in sacks and in contention for DROTY(though if he’s not starting I don’t think he’d deserve it). His technique is pretty poor as an all around football player right now but that’s to be expected. But again, as a natural pass rusher his tools are elite. You keep a guy fresh with his first step and raw power and have him come off the edge on passing downs, he’ll be just fine.
For what it’s worth, on NFL Network last night, they were talking about struggling rookies and highlighted Chris Long and Gholston, but emphasised that they still think both will be good eventually and they mentioned – guess who – Gaines Adams, who was apparently struggling and looked lost too at this time last year and they noted how he came on in the second half of the year.
Look give him a chance he’ll produce big let Ryan help him a little and will be good I say will be good in the middle of the season next year