A Sobering Statistic
Posted on October 22nd, 2008 by Bassett
Seeing this article from the Bergen Record’s by JP Pelzman about Herm’s Return made me pause and ask the obvious (but until now not thought of) question … in terms of Wins and Losses, what’s the difference been since Mangini and Tannenbaum came to town, versus what the Herm/Peterson team have put together in the same time period?
2006 Chiefs: 9-7
2007 Chiefs: 4-12
2008 Chiefs: 1-5
Total Record: 14-24
2006 Jets: 10-6
2007 Jets: 4-12
2008 Jets: 3-3
Total Record: 17-21
I’ll let you do the math. Mine leads me to the following logical conclusion; holy crap! I just hope we’re at the inflection point and I can’t see past the present and the growing gap.
Bassett-
Thank you. Now maybe the Koolaid crowd will start being realistic about this regime.
I love the Jets as much as everyone and this round is more painful because we all had such sky high expectations.
I think I’m going to throw up.
Jas,
I think you should take a break—-from the JetsBlog (Johnny Styne disciple)
People need to calm down. Granted the season hasn’t gotten off to the start most of us hoped/believed it would, but we’re 3-3 not 1-5 not 2-4. I think those records are skewed a bit. In that time KC has played the Patriots 1 time while the Jets have played the Pats 6 times. I know there are other strong teams in the league, but playing the Pats twice a year is going to have an effect on your record over three years. I’d like to see a stat with margin of victory/loss. I’m willing to bet the Jets have a much lower number.
Matt- Have a little more Koolaid. KC played two really awful teams -SD and DEN during that time as well.
I am glad you have bought into Mangini’s crap that losing close is the same as a win. Can anyone remember a team in the Superbowl with a 4-12 record but all the loses were by 3 or less?
I have to throw up again.
I dont think anyone is drinking any koolaid here jas, we all know it hasn’t gone as we’d hoped since year 1, giving the new regime time to get their personell in here and install their system requires some patience. We also know that one of the major reasons the jets haven’t won in 40 years is a lack of stability in the front office / head coach position. I for one am not eager to say this is a failure, fire the coach and gm and start this whole process over again, meaning at least another 3 year wait. This team needs to contend for a playoff spot, this season anything less than that and we can definitely start calling this staff into question.
Fonzie-
I am just trying for “fair and balanced”. We all have opinions and as Uncle Bill Parcells says-you are what your record says you are.
sec108 … i am a pragmatist like you. For all the folks calling for Cowher or whoever, it’s not like he was winning out of the gate. He was the longest tenured coach in one place when he won his first and only championship. This stuff takes time … so to keep scrapping it and starting over can be maddening.
My thought is that we ARE at the inflection point, but so far … these teams are running close in terms of cumulative record.
sec-
I don’t disagree at all. It takes time etc, but the on field look and feel is scary. Miami went from a joke to ok in one year. The team just has a muddled feel to it and frankly i have no idea why other than the coaching. The roster has been significantly upgraded for 3 years and they still don’t look right.
Oh well. I give up
Go JETS.
Hey Sack! I’ve got some more stats for you to chew on! In the spirit of .. you are what your [stats] say you are…(sorry…I couldn’t resist this!).
Chad is beating Brett in the following catagories:
Yds/ game
Compl. % (no shock there)
Take a look at the year before the switch took place. Mangini took over a team that Herm had just destroyed and they had no one to replace Curtis Martin who had been the entire offense. Herm took over a 10-6 team from Dick Vermiel that was one of the best offensive teams in the league (remember opening day of 2005, when KC destroyed the Jets 27-7) . Herm inherited an elite offensive power and did nothing with it.
sorry…more coming…
INTs
1st downs
1st down %
Plays over 20+ yards
less sacks
and passer rating
If you just look at the wins and losses it’s a draw. However if you look at the two programs the Chiefs are a laughing stock. Herm took over a competitive team and turned it into a team without hope and without a future.
Conversely the new Jets regime took over a team with a talent deficit based on decades of lousy drafts and trades. They’ve address the core of the team, the O/D lines and will use the next several years to upgrade our skills positions. The Jets play hard, are in every game and have a nucleus of players to make us competitive for years to come.
The coach isn’t going anywhere, the ownership is going to measure him on slow and steady progress. We need to build an organizational foundation of stability, consistency and talent management, like Pittsburg, Indy and I hate to say it NE.
You can flip coaches and talent every three years based on fan and media pressure but it’s no way to run a business.
You really have to factor in the records from 2005 before the change took place. Herm inherited a 10-6 Dick Vermiel team with an elite offensive squad. (Remember opening day of 2005, when they killed the Jets 27-7?) Mangini inherited a depleted team with no replacement for Curtis Martin, who had been the Jets entire offense.
If you add in the records from 2005, the picture becomes very different.
Bassett,
Amen on Cowher, its bad enough to think of yet another regime change for this team, its even worse to think that new regime would include him. Ugh! I’m sorry, but this guy was not a great coach, go back and look at the record, ever few years was a total bomb, he made horrible game adjustments/decisions on a regular basis, and he won one of the worst officiated super bowls ever. He also lost the AFC Championship game 3 times, twice on his home field!! I know there are jets fans that would sign up for that level of success right now, but seriously if it does come down to changing this staff eventually, I prey someone else has already hired this retread.
This franchise will get better when the Jets fans get better.
They are shallow on their observations and their demands. They bite any marketing bait too easy.
What can you say about their football I.Q, when they could not and still can’t see that the Favre move was not a football upgrade but a business ploy?
I could wish them good luck , but I am afraid that even if they cross path they will not recognize it.
Thanks, Doug, for saving me the trouble. The idea that people are now pining for Herm, who ran a perennial contender with a stellar roster into the ground, is causing me to uptick my assessment of the average Jet fan’s insanity level.
Yes, by all means, fire Mangini, bring back Herm, Chad, too. Hell, let’s have Hackett, also, and get Curtis out of retirement so they can strap a homemade splint around his knee and run him some more! Or just have Chad use his one good arm to shove him into the line in a wheelchair!
Now that’s some forward thinking.
What Doug from Long Valley said.
BubbyBrister/shovelpass,
You really need to stop this nonsense. Parcells was refering to team record, not personal statistics.
Don’t know what all the fuss is about. It’s clear Tangini has done a better job than Herm and the Chiefs FO. Last time I checked, the Chiefs were the worst team in the league, and while the Jets have not played up to expectations yet, are right in the thick of the playoff race.
Bubby, please go root for Chad and the Phins. You obviously want Chad to do well, and therefore you want the Phins to do well. Don’t give me this crap that, “I want Chad to be good, but for the Phins to lose.” CHad is their QB, if he plays well, that is good for Miami, bad for the Jets. SO you are more a Chad fan than Jet fan.
1 or 2 more losses from the Phins and Henne will be inserted at QB. Then we won’t have to read your non-pertinent references to Chad. The fanbase is calling for Henne by the way. Please go read the stories. They know Chad is limited, like most Jet fans have known for a long time.
As for me, I will continue to root for the Jets, and hope all of our players do well, and all of our division rivals play poorly, as a Jet fan is supposed to.
Everyone can agree that stability in the FO is the most improtant thing to having a successful team. I happen to think that we have one of the best GM’s in the league. He has proven time after time to be dedicated to the success of the Jets by bringing in the best players, whether the draft or free agency.
Mangini is still learning. This is his 3rd year as a head coach. I think that he is a very, very smart coach and is football savy. However, his style only works when you the team is winning. People will start to question him when the team is no performing because he has no track record.
Before we can point the finger at Mangini, it would be very helpful to know what his role is in the offensive game plan. How much influence does he have over the plays that are being called on teh field? Does Schotty run the show on offense or does Mangini dictate the tempo and the style of the game?
How much is Mangini involved in adjustments to the O and D because I rarely see him getting involved during the game, whether its with players or coaches. He kind of just stands on the sideline and chews his gum.
Lets not give up on Mangini yet. He’s still raw and still learning on the job. Give him some credit, he took over a lousy team from Herm and had a heck of a season in 2006.
Sure, its been tough since then, but you can’t deny that the team is more talented now then it was in 2005. Both the coach and the GM deserve credit for that.
I think Mangini’s biggest problem is his loyalty to Schotty and Sutton. I think both were marginal picks as coordinators, because Mangini didn’t have better options at the time. We’ll see how Mangini handles this situation.
Gleaning coaching style from comments heard and written pretty much everywhere, I’d say it goes like this: Early in the week the coaches review the game tapes for the upcoming team, looking for what to attack and what to expect to be attacked. This is reviewed and a plan is determined. That is broken down and relayed to the various parts of the team. Practices are based on the plans requirements.
To me this is not a top down autocracy. This requires a buy in from the players. I’m guessing there is much discussion of the means toward the ends. Adjustments seem reasonable given the coaching style of those involved.
Execution is everything. Being off a little means alot. These guys will get better if they can stay healthy. I think BF injured his throwing arm early in the Raider game, but you wouldn’t know it to watch him. He hides it well.
I don’t think we will see any changes to the coaches any time soon, and I’m happy that’s the case. Mangini is levelheaded and not prone to anger. I don’t think the players play any better mad either. They are pros and attention to detail requires calm under fire.
Jets games this year are enjoyable to watch and certainly I expect more out of them than last year when no lead was safe!
billvv
Good analysis.. Very fair and unbiased. However, i was thinking more of the ” game time execution” part. What is his role in that?
Comparing the Jets to the Chiefs is difficult because they play in different divisions and different schedules. But, as many here have noted, Herm went to an aging team (especially on the OL and at QB) and eked the vets out for a good first season, while ruining his star RB (sound familiar). The consequences of Herm’s failure to revamp the OL (sound familar) and address the QB position and his FO’s failure to deal with LJ properly has caused KC’s offense to implode. Not trading Gonzo was just plain dumb. There may only be a 3-game difference, but look at the structural problems on the Chiefs, especially on offense. Besides Dwayne Bowe, and an aging Gonzo, what other player would start on the Jets (I’m taking LJ out because he doesn’t have “Jets core values”).
I’m a Cowher fan. In 15 seasons with the Steelers, he made the playoffs 10 times, only endured 2 losing seasons, had the Steelers appear in 2 Super Bowls and won 1. As someone who watches the Steelers closely, it was pretty obvious that it was the QB position that was holding the Steelers back, so it’s not surprising that Cowher won with Big Ben. Plus, I liked his teams…smash mouth and good defensively. Also, the Rooney family was cheap. So, the Steelers were constantly losing key free agents. Yet, under Cowher, the Steelers were always in the playoff mix.
Also, after he replaced Noll, he reeled off 6 straight playoff appearances. So, he can take a talented team and improve it. The Jets run a 3-4, so that wouldn’t be an issue. The leader of the Jets OL is Faneca, so I really don’t think offense would be a problem. Look, I like Mangini, but anything less than 9-7 this year would be a failure and I’m pinning 2 losses on the coaching staff (Pats and Raiders). The idiotic all running first and goal against the Pats and multiple stupid plays against the Raiders (and the gameplan to confuse Russell rather than hit him (he was a fumbling machine) backfired in a big way). Also, I’m harping on his failure to defer after winning the coin toss. Yes, it’s a little thing, but indicative of a bigger problem. The Jets defense is better (so far) than the offense and that is doubly true for the Raiders, so why not start the game with your D against the poor Raiders O. I just don’t understand that…no way Belichick would do that and he didn’t against the Jets. To me, many of these decisions are football 101 transgressions. You try to confuse Tom Brady, you blitz a rookie QB to force them to make quick decisions. Everyone want to blame Favre, but the Raiders should’ve only scored those 3 gift points against the Jets defense.
Sack-
There’s certainly room for criticism of the game plan at Oakland but I couldn’t disagree more about the coin toss. Playing to ones’ defensive strength on the opening kick is one thing but in sudden death overtime? I don’t think Cowher, BB, Parcells, Paul Brown or Vince Lombardi would have played it any differently.
subwayfare, not in OT. The Jets won the coin toss to start the game and didn’t defer (you can’t defer in OT and why would you?).
A great article from a Football Outsider’s columnist on ESPN.com about letting Favre throw deep (something we Favre supporters have been saying all season):
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3655107
sack-
thanks for the link. can we make it required reading before any else posts about favre.
it did make me throw up again. can anyone get it to shotty.
SD99-
Sorry, misunderstood your post. And I actually wasn’t aware you couldn’t defer in OT.
subwayfare,
I am sure you could defer but I dont think I have ever seen ayone defer in OT. The whole point of defering at the begining of the game is to put ur D on the field first and make a stand. Then you get the ball in the second half on O first.
There is absolutely no startegic point our philosphy behind defering in OT. Unless your playing for the number 1 overall pick and you want to lose on purpose.
The fans in Kansas City have certainly had ebough of Herm. http://www.firehermedwards.com/
Pete – I recognize that you wanted Brett, and I would agree with you that BF is the better QB. But you don’t find the irony of Chad having more 20+ yard passes then Favre? With Greg freaking Camarillo as his leading WR?! With a cobbled togther O-line off a 1-15 team?! C’mon!
My point is not that Chad is great. Or i wish he were in NY. My point just supports what we ALL having been saying since the ARizona game. 1) Let Favre throw deep. 2) Shotty’s play calling needs to improve. If an upstart Miami squad can do it (with a late arrival QB, I might add), then why not the Jets?
SackDance99,
Good post man. I blame this all on Shotty inability to play call mixed with Mangini style of coaching during the game. If he sees that Shotty is doing something wrong, he needs to call him out during the game. Not wait to correct it after the game because its too late by then.
Sack, we have had our arguments in the past and i know you are a knowledgeable fan… I want you to answer me these couple of questions?
-How many screens have we ran to Leon Washington?
-How many counters do we run?
-How many WR screens do we run? (We have GREAT YAC RECEIVERS)
-How many play actoin passes do we run?
-How many times do we pass on first down out of running formations?
-How many times have we ran a toss this year? (Not our of Shot-gun)
-How many passes have gone to Dusin Keller? Why did we even draft him if we refuse to use him?
You get the point… Please, free to comment on any of these because I want to hear what you or anyone else would have to say. I think this is the major part of our problems on offense.
I think.. Regardless of what our game plan is, all the questions that I asked should be part of the “plan”!
Gee…and a shovel pass would be nice, too (sic)
For Keller maybe they want to develop the guy and make him able to block.
In response to ESPN article- Does anyone else realize that sports writers write articles that some will agree with regardless of relevance. Did you see Favre’s passes on Sunday? He got banged up. They weren’t nearly as crisp as previous games. Also I saw recievers running more than 15 yards down the field. He just didn’t throw to them and with the results of his two attempts maybe it was the smart decision.
Writer’s love this angle. They didn’t say anything when he was whipping it deep in previous games. Just this week the ball wasn’t coming out the same and maybe just maybe Favre didn’t want to do soemthing stupid.
Najy,
When the Jets got Faneca, I thought the simple counter-trey (a Redskin staple) would be the Jets’ bread and butter. So, I’m with you there. If anyone doesn’t know what a “counter-trey” is and why Faneca is perfect for it, here’s a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter_trey
I’m with you on everything else. But, my biggest pet peeves are (i) the Jets don’t have to be all that creative with Favre because all he needs is an open receiver anywhere on the field, (ii) in that case, then play action passes would get WRs open easier, (iii) I post this almost daily–Favre makes his TEs Pro Bowlers…he’s the BEST in NFL history at using the TE…the Jets drafted Keller to be a weapon at TE, so what’s the deal?, (iv) throw deep to stretch the D, (v) once that D is finally stretched, then run WR or RB screens to make the D pay for deep drops, and (vi) even if the D is in a deep zone, you still have to let Favre test the D…that’s what he does.
And, that brings us back to who Favre is. He can make all the NFL throws, so every game he has to attempt all the NFL throws to be effective. That’s why he is feared, not letting him throw the deep ball is like telling Ryan Howard not to pull the ball and protect the plate…sure he’ll cut his strikeouts down, but is that what you want him to do? No, you live with the strikeouts. With Favre, live with the INTs and tally up the wins.
The article was also written by Football outsiders who tend to only look at the numbers, which tell the story, but can discount little things like rampant injuries. Coles and Cotch got hurt people. Stuckey is a slot reciever and depending on who you talk to here Brad Smith might be better served bagging groceries. Which of them was supposed to step up? Cotchery had 1 catch he had 8 the week before. That is a huge loss. Oh and if Baker doesn’t slip we aren’t having this conversation.
Najy…I’ve seen Mangini consulting quite closely with Sutton during the games. Never with Schott though, who is usually in conference with the QB(s).
It was a poor offensive performance, but in 2005 or 2007 total yardage of 418 yards often would have taken them two games. I know that with the personnel they have now the expectation is rightly higher, but this wasn’t close to being the worst offensive performance in Jets history and the Raiders are not that bad defensively…especially at home. The turnovers hurt exponentially more than the inability to move the ball.
The offense is actually way more varied than it has been over the last few years. I’ve seen plenty of all of the plays Najy listed during the season (except a shovel pass…I agree with Bubby!). Maybe without all the pre-snap motion the creativity is not so apparent (and maybe it reduces the effectiveness of some of the plays, who knows?) The last two years, the Jets basically ran two rushing plays – a draw and a reverse, but now under Callahan there is much more variety.
As for the Mangini-Herm stat, I think Doug wins the thread with his comment which was on the money. Herm has taken a playoff team and made it worse every year. Mangini has the Jets contending for a playoff spot in year three, which is right where we hoped and expected him to be.
I forgot to mention two things and they were both picked up by JAGG and Sack anyway…Keller isn’t playing more because he is not as far along as a blocker as he is as a pass catcher (and this is not uncommon for rookie TEs – and often WRs and RBs in pass protection too)…and they don’t seem to be using Faneca to his strengths and I don’t know why. I read somewhere (NYT, I think) that this might be because Moore’s run blocking abilities might negate the success of such a play. I’d add that Jones runs the counter well, but Callahan has used it in the past, so there must be some reason why he isn’t using it with this personnel.
JAGG, how about the fact that the Jets called -0- play action passes? I think the writer’s point was that once the Raiders D obviously started to both stop the spread and punish Favre when the Jets were in the spread, the coaching staff had to change tactics. How about a traditional I formation? Then, play action with Richardson (one of the best FB blockers in recent NFL history) stay into block while Leon/TJ and Keller join the WRs. That’s when Keller would be lethal because he’d have to be defended by an LB…if he’s defended at all because ILBs are trained to follow the back, but a TE that stays in for the initial play action (to sell the run) then releases is usually uncovered in the flat…with Keller, that could be a 30-40 yard gain. Like I said, Favre kills teams with his TE.
What the writer and many of us feel is that this is all simple stuff that works with Favre and that Schott thinks that there’s extra points for degree of difficulty.
Bent, the counter-trey worked with the Skins and that team had Pro Bowlers across the OL and they were all good run-blockers. And, the best thing about the counter-trey is that it isn’t dependent on the LT’s run-blocking ability. Since most teams fear a run left behind Faneca, having the action left and then have Faneca pull right seems to me to be a bread-and-butter 5-yard a pop play, plus it forces those safeties to inch up and it wears out the DL….remember guys like Riggins and Byner weren’t exactly Barry Sanders back there, and neither is TJ.
As for Keller, he isn’t a great blocker. The question is do the Jets need him to run block (no) or pass block (with Tony Richardson in? no).
SackDance99,
My points exactly. Simple plays that are very effective and that have with stood time since the beginning of football. Guess what, they are still effective today.
How bout this… Will Keller ever be a good blocker? If not, does that mean that we will never use him? He is a play maker.. I would rather see him running routes then blocking. We have Bubba Franks and C. Baker to Block.
By the way, I realize Brick would have to pull too in a counter-trey, but he is fast enough to be a lead blocker or take up space…he doesn’t actually have to power somebody off the OL, which isn’t his forte. But, he is fast and athletic, making him perfect for the counter-trey. But, I’m no “genius” like Schott, so I’m sure there’s a reason why the counter-trey wouldn’t work for the Jets. Point is that Faneca’s block is really what would spring the play and Brick is coming along as a downfield blocker.
True. The Jets OL has a way to go before it can compete with the Hogs from the eighties!
Slightly off topic, did you see Brick with the great block in the open field on Sunday? This is a major weakness I think you yourself highlighted last year. Hopefully, this is a sign he is improving in space.
I agree with your last comment, but the problem is that the defense knows that too, so they can just cover him as a receiver. With Baker in, at least there is some kind of a threat that he will be blocking for a running play. Keller will increasingly get on the field as the season goes on, with any luck, and his numbers will improve as a result.
As a comparison, McFadden can’t pass protect (he usually just runs a route) and it is hurting his effectiveness probably as much as his toe injury. Take out the Chiefs game (who everyone has been running on) and he’s not done much either. We saw David Harris blow right by him and get a 15 yard penalty on Sunday.
He was getting killed in the spread on the first drive. I don’t like Schott, but Favre could throw deep if the recievers were open. When we ran the I against the Pats every one cryed and moaned about how we are wasting Favre. Now its happening again out of the spread. Should they have changed probably and tehy did becaus eteh early spread set up oen of Smith’s runs. I’m all for play action, but what I’m tired is of the deification of a fossil. He is not god at this point he is a good, not great, QB with amazing but diminishing football skills. It is to his credit that he still is able to play. I don’t believe people would truely believe Keller to be a blocker and he would end up covered. I wouldn’t trust it.
See Sack I don’t think the writer feels that way at all. It was a pretty lousy article with little factual basis. It just does what the majority of sports writers strive for to catch a wave with a majority.
Najy, I agree on Keller. I don’t think the Jets need him as a blocker. We’ll see Gonzo this weekend and he hasn’t exactly been a very good blocker in his HOF career and Gates’ blocking makes me giggle.
Agreed again, Sack.
Maybe they call it all the time and Favre constantly audibles out of it because he is selfishly trying to increase his stats. (Kidding).
I think you guys brought up some excellent points, especially about the counter-trey, play action, and Keller.
Problem is this all points to the coaching staff not adjusting to its players or game conditions. Its obvious that Brett Favre has limited authority to audible at the line of scrimmage. He loves to use play action and I’m sure if it was up to him every pass would have been a play action pass last week with TJ running for so many yards.
Not sure if you have read Cimini’s article today, but he points out that in overtime the Raiders put 8 in the box to stop the run. Favre isn’t dumb, he had to see that. Yet they continued to run the ball against the Raiders 8 man front. I think this confirms that Favre isn’t allowed to audible much at the line.
JAGG, we disagree about Favre’s QB prowess, so let’s net that out. If the “I formation” doesn’t work because there’s 8-men in the box, the as an OC you have to modify your attack. Against the Pats, after getting stoned 2 plays in a row with an extra OL in an obvious run-only formation, how about a change for 3rd down? Even if you run again, at least it’s a different look. Same point against the Raiders, if the QB is getting killed in the spread and is being forced to dump off to the TE, how about switching things up? If the D expects run, pass; if it expects pass, run. I just don’t think that’s all that hard to understand.
Bent, there is the perception that Favre is a selfish player. I always thought that was because of his Hamlet act about whether to retire. Were you half-joking? I may be an apologist for him, but when he throws up his “gunslinger” deep passes, wouldn’t he be better off just dumping it off to improve his completion pct. and QB rating, even if it meant a 3rd down pass fell 3 or 4 yards of a first down? Ooops, I just described some other Jets QB, who is a saint and was never considered selfish. Here’s a hint, his name rhymes with “Pad Chennington.” (kidding)
Geez, my typing is awful, I meant “then as an OC” and 3 or 4 yards short of a first down.”
SackDance99,
Do you think its a coincidence that coming into the Raiders game, Brett led the league in Completion Percentage? Is that because he is so accurate or is that due to the conservative play calling?
I never said they play calling was great. I hate Schott. Lots of us are put in working conditions that may not have the best plan, but I think our WRs getting banged around had a lot more to do with limiting his deep routes. Deangelo Hall was still a pro bowler. Favre has thrown for all too similar yards in other games and we won those ones. What is good for the goose is good for the gander and bad planning can be fixed with great execution. After the first qtr Brett didn’t get hit after releasing as much,because they altered the package and protections.
Back to Keller very few just pass catching TEs play major roles in their first years. No one has patience.
Sack – better leave “Pad Chennington” out of this discussion…you don’t want to wake Pete57 up to calling you a Phin-anthropist!
:-)
Sack, I actually was referencing comments by another poster who suggested that the coaching staff deserves none of the blame because Brett Favre constantly changes the play so it’s all his fault.
Najy, I think a more vanilla (ie high % and low risk) offense was to be expected while Favre got used to the offense. Since the success in the Cards game, people have rightly expected the playbook to open up. The result? Brett has had a poor rating the last two weeks. Hopefully these are just teething troubles and they are on their way to finding a happy medium.
As pointed out elsewhere, each element of the Jets offense has looked good at times, but they have yet to “fire on all cylinders” at the same time.
Hopefully Schott will learn from the Oakland game, because we can’t realistically expect him to be replaced at this time.
JAGG, I would agree with you if Favre had been allowed to try a deep pass with a classic deep, play action pass. Also, 2 of the Raiders’ 3 sacks came in the second half…not a banner day for the OL and I think you’re incorrect, he was steadily pounded all game long. Plus, he executed all but one of his handoffs perfectly; my problem is that some of those handoffs should have been passes. If you execute a losing plan perfectly, you stil lose…right?
Najy, Favre had a career high for completion percentage last season…there’s a chance he’s being more cautious in his twilight. I attributed the high completion percentage to the Jets WRs…they run great routes and Favre can hit them when they’re open. Lots of folks here bash the Jets WRs, but I thought Chad limited their effectiveness. If Favre threw more deep passes, I’m not sure his completion % would be much different. For instance, the QBs with the highest YPA this season are all well over 60% completions, while the folks under 60% have some of the worst YPA. Sure, maybe not 70%, but how about 64%?
Bent, it’s the nature of the QB position that a disproportionate amount of the glory and blame goes his way. Last season, I thought “Pad Chennington” was given winning game plans and his players executed the plays, but he screwed them up. The only game that I felt that Favre under-performed the game plan was against Cincy. Against Miami and the Cards, his improv skills out-performed the game plan and I just don’t think the Jets had good offensive game plans against the Pats or Raiders. (A game plan devised by Walsh, Lomabardi, Belichick wouldn’t have worked against that fired up Chargers team). For instance, TJ picks up 39 yards in his first 2 runs of the third quarter’s opening drive. So, I have a question for you, Najy, JAGG and anyone else. What would you call next? I bet a pitch to Leon, who inexplicably came in for TJ, would not be your choice. Why bring in Leon? Why not run TJ until he’s stopped? If the “goal” is to establish the run, then frackin’ establish it! As we all know, Leon fumbled a bad pitch by Favre and the Jets were all of a sudden in a 2nd and 22 hole. WHY???? That’s the type of call that’s just too cute. Plus, if Callahan steps in, why not fire Schott…maybe Callahan would actually run a guy who just averaged nearly 20 yards for his last 2 carries a third time in a row.
Isn’t it just? He got too much of the credit when they won a few and now gets a lot of the blame for the loss. Many other factors have contributed to both (and most of our posters here have done a great job of discussing these at depth).
I agree they were “cute”, almost to the point of being stubborn in the first half. The spread looked sharp for half a drive, but when the drive stalled, they stuck with it too long and didn’t run enough on first down although the run was clearly working. Then in OT, the opposite happened – they ran well on first down but then in the 2nd and 3 type situations they ran again, with no success and had to rely on third downs, which they had struggled with all day. So maybe there they actually could have done with being more cute and less smashmouth.
Hindsight is always 20-20, huh? They tried several things, didn’t make adjustments soon enough and the game felt like one of those games that no matter what happened, the Jets would lose. You live and learn…
A lot of good points have been brought out in the discussion above. I think the most succinct one is that adjustments weren’t made soon enough. Either against Rob Ryan’s response to the spread, or his stacking the box against the run later on. The thing that I find the most vexing is the lack of play-action. It seems so weird they wouldn’t have tried something Favre’s so good at. Maybe there’s something we don’t know. I do think the WRs got banged up by the press and didn’t respond well. I mentioned in another thread that I wished we’d had a real burner out there at WR to scare the DBs off the line. Maybe that will be Clowney when he’s finally healed up.
In OT, I actually agreed with one of the commentators who said something like “I am surprised the Jets did not continue with the hurry up offense that worked so well at the end of the 4th quarter.” Maybe Mangini is too much of a control freak and won’t let “Favre be Favre.” I thought the Jets got a guy like Favre specifically for games that come down to the 4th quarter or OT and to improve redzone efficiency. Yes, Favre’s last play last season was a bad INT in OT, but he also tossed a bomb to win a game in OT last season (I think it was the first play in OT). With Favre, you just have to take the good with the bad.
again…i want someone to tell me which coach is to blame for chris baker falling down all by himself…or for favre kissing a wide open dustin keller on 3rd down…that tannenbaum’s fault? mangini’s? westhoff’s? sutton’s?
give this crew the rest of the year…tuna wasn’t tuna right away….bellycheat wasnt a winner until brady showed up….
please
i meant missing a wide open keller….lol
“With Favre, you just have to take the good with the bad.”
Exactly…and there’s more of both than there usually would be with Pennington back there. But we all knew that would be the case going in, so why is anyone surprised?
Glad you cleared up that typo, Jim!
Im totally with whoever said give the play calling duties to Bill Callahan. I honestly think thats why they brought him in, if Schott is in over his head, which he clearly is, then Callahan should take over the plays. I loved that raiders offense that Super Bowl year, if that team didnt get old overnight he never loses his job, well with al davis u never know, i’ll tell u one thing about crazy al, if the raiders had the players we have with their salaries, Brian “Lil Marty” Schottenhiemer wouldnt have made it past the bye week. Brian Schottenhiemer is a really good QB coach, he has the Schottenhiemer in him of calling plays not to lose, but we’ll never win anything significant with him behind the offense
Eddie DiGio,
Excellent point.
I too last year thought the same exact thnig when they brought in Callahan. He is assistnat offensive coach; that is his title. He is not the offensive line coach.
I def think he should start having more imput on the gameplan and “in-game” playcalling.
Najy,
Yea man, they gotta figure something out over their because anything less than a playoff berth or lets say they go 10-6 and miss the playoffs bc denver or sd win the west with like an 8-8 or 9-7 record, Mangini and his staff, one that would never get an NFL job anywhere else, gotta go. I dont know how they can honestly look at the way they’ve performed and not think change needs to be made, or Mangini is such an ego maniac that he just wont make changes to spite the media and the fans who want him gone