Opinion: Is There a Plan?
I have been thinking about this and it seems to me there is no real plan for our coaching search. We have heard Woody speak about continuity being the bedrock for success in this league. Does our coaching search show any signs of this? We have spent the last three seasons bringing in personnel that fit the 3-4 scheme. Some of these high priced FA’s (Calvin Pace) have been ineffective in the 4-3 Scheme. If we are to hire a 4-3 coach what does this do to our personnel? Are we going to have to release players who we have guaranteed large sums of money to?
As a team with no starting quarterback do we need to hire an offensive minded coach who can groom one of our young QB’s? If we hire an offensive mind who will fix our defense? In my opinion we do not have a coach on staff at the moment that is qualified to run the defense.
Firing Mangini seemed like an easy decision but we are left with major questions about the future and direction of the team. Can we afford to hire another inexperienced coach who could be gone in a couple of years leaving us to rebuild again?
The quick reaction by Woody, and there is no doubt in my mind that the firing of Mangini was all Woody, seems to created more questions and problems from an organization that has already seemed dysfunctional at best.
I said it last night and I will say it again. This coaching search is making me very nervous. I don’t think that the decision to fire Mangini was thought out. It seems again like a decision made to appease a fanbase that is not willing to shell out big dollars for PSL’s in an unnecessary stadium. This team looks like it cares more about filling Woody’s pockets then it does producing a long-term championship caliber team.
A note to all those people who say that Mangini was completely incapable of winning championships, he looked pretty good when we beat NE and Tenn. I would say the blame for this season falls on Favre and less on Mangini. But Favre put $ in Woody’s pocket with Jerseys and Mangini doesn’t.
Once again all I can think of is Same Old Jets.
(Note: I am not placing all the blame on Favre, but as everyone always says the QB and the HC get too much credit when things go right and too much blame when things go wrong. I have stated previously that I felt Sutton and Shotty should be fired. My point in this post is that I feel a lot of the effort issues stemmed from Favre’s attitude and effort. Quotes from Thomas Jones seem to back me up. I would have rather kept Mangini and gotten rid of Favre.)
Filed under: Main Page, Opinion
I think Favre is obviously much more to blame than Mangini, but this happens every year. A coach is given bad players or players he doesn’t want, and it’s his job to make it work. Mangini didn’t make it work. Is it necessarily his fault? Not all of it. But that’s how things work and he was fired because of it. The team needed something to shake it up and firing him was the easiest.
I do agree though that I hope we bring in someone with experience so we’re not backtracking, but I think we all need to sit tight until after the Super Bowl. No decision is going to be made until all the people they want to interview are interviewed. I wouldn’t take that as no direction, just taking a look at all options.
I tend to think that the collapse was due to the fact that we can always say Same ol Jets. Favre sucked and there were coaching blunders, but the players looked like they knew thier fate already. They looked as defeated as could be, while the fan base and media told them they were going to blow it. A great coach can end a culture of losing, but it is tough for any young coach. Look at the Saints their QB threw for 5,000 yds and they still went 8-8. Sometimes even when you have the right pieces the culture will screw you.
This team needs to stop being the same old Jets. How we do that I have no idea, but we need s strong coach to come in and whip these millionares into shape.
“I don’t think that the decision to fire Mangini was thought out. It seems again like a decision made to appease a fanbase that is not willing to shell out big dollars for PSL’s in an unnecessary stadium.”
Good call.
I’m sure starting 8-3 and then losing 4 of their last 5 games to the likes of San Francisco and Seattle had nothing at all to do with it.
It appears to me that this owner is just another block head that changed his mind before the time was up. Giving Eric Mangini the boot just shows how inept this team has become as the owner ran out of patients. He brought the guy in to create a new environment and start growing a program that can grow roots and be around for a while. What happened to that?
There were a lot of negatives that came with Mangini, as he was still learning on the job. I have no issue with his being fired provided they don’t throw away the years they invested in letting him learn on the job; menaing that they better not go out and hire another newbie coach who will need to suffer through his own growing pains. They really don’t have the personnel (and staff in place) for a new guy to step in and go with it. That was the case with Harbaugh in Baltimore, as the core of that team, the defense and its coordinator, had been retained and there was continuity.
Unless they end up with a proven commodity at coach, or if their plan is to hire Schott as a placeholder until Cowher is available, I don’t see much of a method or well-thought-out scheme here. It would then seem like Woody listened to the media (again) and followed its knee-jerk suggestions.
I love how the fans are siding with mangini now, when they all called for his job 2 weeks ago. Good job fans!
There’s not many times that I completely, 100% disagree with a TJB columnist, but I do this time. I think there absolutely is a plan for the coaching search. I think Mangini lost his job in the snow in Seattle. I think he knew his job was at risk and that’s why he coached not to lose and made 3 huge (and somewhat uncharacteristic) coaching blunders in that game.
Woody fired Mangini ASAP because the Browns fired Crennel ASAP and he needed to find out what Cowher was thinking. When Cowher demurred, the Jets (most likely Tanny with help from the football people) compiled a list of the best coordinators and former HC’s out there. Tanny and Woody both said the search would be methodical and thorough and with guys like Ryan, Grimm (who was a finalist for the Steelers job after Cowher left), Spags, Rivera and, at the time, Meeks still in the playoffs, the only way to have a complete search is to wait.
Also, what is exactly wrong with Woody being concerned about appeasing the fanbase to sell PSLs? The Yankees have just spent the GDP of Guatemala on free agents because the new Yankee Stadium has lower level boxes that need to be sold (and old-timers are being displaced). For years, I toiled through Leon Hess’ reign of terror. He didn’t give a rat’s a** about the fans. He moved us into Giants Stadium, hired his son-in-law as coach, let Riggins go in free agency, stuck with Joe Walton while the window of opportunity for the most talented team in Jets history was squandered and on and on. I’m glad Woody is concerned about the product on the field because we’re all disappointed, frustrated and impatient.
And, the idea that getting Favre was solely a PSL move is difficult to fathom. Woody took a chance to upgrade the QB position with an HOF’er, who even with a poor performance down the stretch (that was no worse than the defense’s collapse), still led a 125% improvement in record (4-12 to 9-7) and the 3rd most points scored in Jets history. The only way Favre would have helped to sell PSLs is if he led the team to the playoffs this year and stayed for another year…something that probably will not pan out. And, as for who bears more blame, Favre or Mangini, Favre didn’t say “Field Goal” on 4th and a 1/2 yard on the 2-yardline and Favre didn’t say “Punt” after Feely had just boomed a FG that would’ve made a second chance only 5-yards longer. Favre didn’t effectively bench Keller or fail to keep Stuckey and Clowney active, while carrying an extra FG kicker. I, for one, kept wondering what 4 WR of Coles, Jericho, Clowney and Stuckey could do (with Keller at TE), but I guess the next QB will find out, not the guy paid $12M who is heading to Canton.
I have faith in the process and as much as everyone seems to hate Woody as an owner, the Jets have had a winning record in 6 of his 9 seasons as owner (and that’s 6 of the Jets 16 winning seasons in franchise history). That’s a pretty good indication that this owner wants a winner.
Coaching is the easy scapegoat, but look at recent history. Bill Parcells had two winning seasons and one playoff appearance in three years. Al Groh had a 9-7 season. Herm had three winning seasons in five years. Mangini had two winning seasons in three years.
In almost every year since the Kotite era, the Jets have either stunk badly, or won nine or 10 games. When they made the playoffs, with the exception of that one magical year under Parcells, it was on the cusp, by a game.
So who’s to blame? Is it really Parcells and Groh and Edwards and Mangini? Or is it the fact that we haven’t had a decent quarterback outside Testaverde’s one year of rejuvenation? The fact that we haven’t had a true pass rusher on the D-line since Klecko and Gastineau? That we had only one game-breaking wide receiver (Keyshawn), and he was traded?
At some point, I think you just have to concede that the Jets over the past decade have been a team with average talent, a handful of above-average players, and enough talent to sometimes make the playoffs but not much more than that.
Which, frankly, describes about three-quarters of the NFL.
While I think Woody’s NFL ownership performance could certainly use a little sprucing up, I don’t see it as quite the rudderless disaster you do.
Number one, until I hear it from Woody’s mouth that the mandate after the FA splurge this year was, “win now, or else,” I take it as speculation. Perhaps a good educated guess, but not necessarily fact.
Number two, until I hear it directly from Mangini’s mouth that Favre was “forced on him,” and that he had no say in the matter, I’ll treat it the same way.
It’s quite possible that a more damning element in the case against Mangini was that he failed to develop a QB that would have obviated the acquisition of Favre. What if Woody and Mike T. went to Mangini when Favre became available and asked him how confident he was in the QBs on the roster (including the one he handpicked) and Mangini didn’t have a very good answer? I suspect that if Mangini had said with supreme confidence, “I have no doubt I can win big with CP/KC at QB,” Favre would have spent the season in Mississippi.
And then, whether he was enthusiastic about the Favre trade or not, the fact that he wasn’t able to get what Mike McCarthy got out of him just 7 months earlier, may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. Especially when Mangini was coming into a contract year.
As has been mentioned in other threads, firing Mangini quickly, knowing there were going to be many teams scrambling for the available candidates was probably a smart, if impulsive-looking, decision. And I don’t think Cowher was going to coach the Jets this year no matter who owned the team.
As for the right match of coach and personnel, I suspect that’s why we haven’t heard a hiring announcement yet. People may not like Mike T. but I don’t think he’s stupid enough to simply overlook the signings and money spent recently when hiring a new coach. I’m fairly certain the question of, “How would you win with the personnel under contract?” is coming up in interviews.
It may not look pretty right now, but I prefer to see the glass as at least partially full for the moment.
Also, what is the basis for your “unnecessary stadium” comment? How could the team have remained financially viable as the lone tenant in the aging Giants Stadium carrying twice the overhead?
“I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS AND IT SEEMS TO ME THERE IS NO REAL PLAN FOR OUR COACHING SEARCH.”
There is no basis for your assertion. Woody took the vacation he had planned. That was planned. We have been meeting with all the usual suspects. We have arranged for interviews with others. Those who actually pay attention to such things credit our team for the thoroughness of our interviews. We even investigated hiring the guys who wanted all the power.
“WE HAVE SPENT THE LAST THREE SEASONS BRINGING IN PERSONNEL THAT FIT THE 3-4 SCHEME. SOME OF THESE HIGH PRICED FA’S (CALVIN PACE) HAVE BEEN INEFFECTIVE IN THE 4-3 SCHEME. IF WE ARE TO HIRE A 4-3 COACH WHAT DOES THIS DO TO OUR PERSONNEL?”
Don’t you think before they make the decision as to who will coach our team they should talk to the potential coaches like Spags before making assumptions like yours? They have not hired a 4-3 coach yet, so this is a bit putting the cart before the horse. It is possible a young coach might have brilliant ideas about how to use our personnel. They cannot learn about them without talking to the guys who have gotten more out of their players! More importantly, are you sure you are correct in your definition of 4-3 coaches? Rumor has it there are some coaches who can actually coach the players they have and are not system bound.
“IF WE HIRE AN OFFENSIVE MIND WHO WILL FIX OUR DEFENSE? IN MY OPINION WE DO NOT HAVE A COACH ON STAFF AT THE MOMENT THAT IS QUALIFIED TO RUN THE DEFENSE.”
Again, since we have not hired anyone, this seems like putting the cart before the horse. We could hire an offensive minded coach who might bring in an excellent, defensive 3-4 Coordinator. We could bring in a coach on either side who might be able to coach up our current coordinators to do what he wants because he not only understands the game but can teach players and coaches to perform as he wants. Finally, most Jet fans acknowledge that we are short a CB and S and maybe a DE or two. I think BLT regressed after a bad opening in which he managed a few sacks to hide his missed tackles and being out of position. So if Gholston does not improve, and if my observations are correct, we will likely need an OLB too. Is it possible, that the problem is not the D coaches but the lack of talent at a few key positions that leave us open to long completions because of not enough pass rush and open WR and TE?
CAN WE AFFORD TO HIRE ANOTHER INEXPERIENCED COACH WHO COULD BE GONE IN A COUPLE OF YEARS LEAVING US TO REBUILD AGAIN?
Assumptions again! First of all, if someone has been a coordinator for years, played the game at some level, coached at some levels, why do you call them inexperienced? Was Parcells inexperienced when he took the Jints to two SB? Was Lombardi who did the same? I don’t happen to think that a former HC who is now out of a job as a HC is necessarily better than someone who has not yet been a HC. Some first year HCs this year did pretty good jobs with the talent they had.
THE QUICK REACTION BY WOODY, AND THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT THE FIRING OF MANGINI WAS ALL WOODY, SEEMS TO CREATED MORE QUESTIONS AND PROBLEMS FROM AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS ALREADY SEEMED DYSFUNCTIONAL AT BEST.
I agree that Woody precipitated Eric’s firing. However, Detroit fans might disagree with your definition of dysfunctional. Our team did have a winning record for the second time in three years.
OTOH, Mangini did not produce a playoff team in spite of a weak schedule, crippling injuries to his major division opponent and a resurgence behind a QB our team gave away. While I blame Favre and Shott and Sutton, Eric was the HC. He was the only one who could have benched Favre, fired the Coordinators, demanded different game plans that hid weaknesses, etc. The buck stopped with Eric and he deservedly paid the price. There was no hesitation. That does not necessarily imply “quick reaction”. It could imply “decisive action”. Time will tell whether it was a correct action.
I SAID IT LAST NIGHT AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. THIS COACHING SEARCH IS MAKING ME VERY NERVOUS.
Since it is just starting, doesn’t that say more about you than the search?
I DON’T THINK THAT THE DECISION TO FIRE MANGINI WAS THOUGHT OUT.
We completely disagree. See above.
IT SEEMS AGAIN LIKE A DECISION MADE TO APPEASE A FANBASE THAT IS NOT WILLING TO SHELL OUT BIG DOLLARS FOR PSL’S IN AN UNNECESSARY STADIUM. THIS TEAM LOOKS LIKE IT CARES MORE ABOUT FILLING WOODY’S POCKETS THEN IT DOES PRODUCING A LONG-TERM CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER TEAM.
In this case, I think the financial incentives and performance were in alignment. Eric would have done better without a last minute change of QBs. But he failed to adjust, failed to get the most out of his personnel, and the Coordinators that failed him worked for him. Not the other way around.
While the addition of Favre was not of his choosing, the substitution of Cassell for Brady was not something lil Bill would have chosen. But he almost got his team, in spite of myriad other crippling injuries, into the playoffs with a better record than ours.
ONCE AGAIN ALL I CAN THINK OF IS SAME OLD JETS.
Again, this says more about your thought process than reality. I prefer to wait to see how this plays out.
Who will be our next HC? Who will he hire for Coordinators? Who, if anyone does he keep? Which players, if any, get released? What happens to our QB? How does the team play next season.
To freak out before the season is even over seems to speak more about the freakee than our team.
Sack- My boss used to gate Guttman’s (Former GM) daughter and he said that Leon loved this team. If he made mistakes and from Riggin’s reputation letting him go sure was one. He did care though. I’ll take my bosses word for it considering he sat in box seats 5 people away from him for a few years. Caring doesn’t translate to good decisions and bad advice could kill anyone.
“I’m 80 years old and I want results now”- Hess when he hired Kotite. Parcells wanted to get Leon a championship.
I think the “collapse” angle gets overplayed, too. Yes, it was a brutal stretch and it was very disappointing. But, if they had started 3-6 and finished 9-7, Mangini would have gotten a contract extension and the Jets would be everyone’s vogue pick in the AFC next year. I’m not sure how one route to 9-7 would make him a better coach than another.
I also have to applaud the folks who could tell after three seasons that Mangini won’t be a good coach. If you know that already, you are in the wrong line of work. You should be an NFL GM.
There is no rational explanation for bailing on the plan Mangini and Tannebaum had in place, only to bring in another inexperienced coach, who will have to start all over again building his own foundation, his own new system and his own new players.
Look at the Titans. They stuck with Jeff Fisher. The same Jeff Fisher who didn’t have a winning season his first five years as a head coach, and has a grand total of 5 playoff wins in 14 years. And, if Fisher was available, Jets fans would be clamoring for him.
Fred App, Vinny’s injury in ‘99 was a killer…that team still went 8-8 with Ray Lucas. IMO, Parcells had that team on the cusp, but his leaving along with BB’s betrayal and Groh’s Ray Handley impression led to a rookie mistake by Woody…hiring Herm. We’ll never know what continuity with the 3-4 or not over-using C-Mart would’ve brought. Better coaching and personnel decisions during the Harmway era and who knows? Judging by the way the Pats handled the Raiders with, essentially, the same players that the Jets had, who knows? I think most Jets fans believe that the talent on this team has been better than the coaching and, IMO, that was absolutely true this season.
The fact that there is a search at all leads me to believe there was no plan and that this was completely reactionary. I would have had no problem with the firing of Mangini if they had a guy in mind and were ready to get him on board. As it turns out, they just fired Mangini, hoping Cowher might be interested. Obviously he wasn’t and now we are searching. They said Mangini was no longer the right “fit.” Well, then who is a better fit? If you didn’t know at the time then how do you know you’ll get a guy who is better?
This is not to say the next coach can’t be the next Bill Parcells but it would be more of a lucky break than anything and that is pretty damning for the front office.
Roger, look at the Ravens, Dolphins and Falcons. They just jettisoned their coaches and made the playoffs, all with stunning turnarounds. And, each new HC had no experience as an HC before this season. And, while I have no doubt that Manigini will, one day, be a good HC, his results this season weren’t good and he coached poorly in the Raiders, 49ers and Seahawks games. IMO, he looked like a rookie HC this season, was out-coached repeatedly and cost the Jets games because of poor decisions. Also, his team started to make dumb mental mistakes right at the end of the season, after a stellar 4-1 December record in ‘06, in ‘07 and ‘08 the team went 3-6 in December. Mangini was just trending the wrong way.
Gotta love Jets fans, we seem to love to wallow in the malaise whether it is warranted or not…..
So to address some of the themes in this thread:
1. We need a PROVEN (or Experienced or whatever other term you want to use for RE-TREAD).
Lets take a look at the available coaches and what they have “Proven”
Cowher – has proven he can win a SuperBowl when given multiple chances, and given the patience of this fan base I doubt he would have lasted long enough to prove that here – he also only proven that he can consistently win within the structure of the Steelers front office, with someone else running personnel, yet for some reason we are so desperate we are ready to hand full control to someone that has NEVER “proven” he can handle this. Also has a tendency to be a bit conservative on offense, a trait many here seem to dislike but either have forgotten or are willing to overlook in order to acquire his services. Oh yeah, and because our owner wasn’t willing to call and instantly offer him a cajillion dollars to change his mind about coaching he immediately withdrew his name for consideration, rather than wait a week.
Shanahan – had proven he could win back to back superbowls, albeit 10 years ago, with a HOF QB and a borderline HOF RB. He has also proven he can take just about any RB off the street and turn him into a 1000 yard back in his offense. Offensive mastermind, no doubt, but he has also proven he can’t field an NFL caliber defense no matter how many coordinators he tries or how many poor personnel decisions he makes on that side of the ball (so much for that “experience”). Oh, and even he claims he wants to coach again after 14 years with the Broncos, he is taking 2 weeks before he makes a decision, yeah, he’s probably not burned out or anything, lets just hand him full control. No thanks.
Marty Schottenheimer – has proven he can take multiple franchises and return them to respectability, with a regular season record that is beyond reproach. He has also proven that in big games, in the post season his butt clinches up tight enough to turn coal into diamonds, going conservative to a fault. Many seem willing to settle for this even though we arent that far from respectability, we were 9-7 this season, even after losing 4 of the last 5. Biggest reason I don’t want him is that his son may come in the package, that and I don’t want to just make the playoffs, I want to get to the promised land, same reason I was willing to take a chance on Favre over Chad.
The prevailing wisdom here seems to be that we can’t hire a new up and coming coordinator this time around since we went that route with Mangini and it didn’t work out. I definitely don’t agree with this but I also didn’t entirely agree with Mangini firing in the first place, its just like changing QB’s, the grass is always greener with someone else. We long to have the wining consistency of Pittsburgh or New England but we are unwilling to give a coach more than a season or two to prove he is capable of it, which is ridiculous given the culture of expecting to lose that has been built around here, it takes time to change.
They should hire whomever they think is capable of getting this team over the hump of mediocrity that seems to have set in, and will be able to lead in that manner for AT LEAST the next 10 years, I don’t really care what they have done before this as long as they are deemed up to the task. Spinning the coaching carousel every 3 or 4 years in no way to build a winner.
Would we long-suffering Jets be surprised if the “brain trust” hired Matt Millen?
Don’t, how do you know they don’t have a guy in mind? Like I said before, Ryan, Spags, Grimm and Rivera can’t interview, yet. Also, don’t you interview your in-house people like Schott and Callahan anyhow? You might want to persuade the new HC to retain one of them. Plus, it’s easier to recruit assistant coaches if you treat them fairly after a HC change. Also, I heard that Spags was a bad interview, something that kept Marvin Lewis as a DC for a few years. If he was a 1st choice and gave a bad interview (something the Jets wouldn’t know until it happened) would you still want him to be hired? Let’s see how the process works out, but I think Tanny and Woody are smart guys and are getting wiser to the ways of the NFL. I’m not going to be a “same old Jets fan”…I’m optimistic.
I meant that those guys “can’t be hired, yet.”
And I seem to remember Woody being roundly criticized after promoting Tannenbaum and hiring Mangini without doing much of a search at all, this time they seem willing to interview everyone with a pulse and we are now killing them for that approach too?
What kind of plan exactly should they have had? I mean if they decided that they need to fire the coach, there is no way of knowing what coaches will blow them away in an interview or what coaches will be interested unless they covertly did some digging. But you can only do so much without speaking and meeting with a coach.
I understand the concern, but what are they supposed to do once they fire the coach other than to interview as many qualified candidates and pick the one they like? Hiring coaches is such a crapshoot anyways, you never know. Its the same way with QB’s.
I can’t believe what I’m reading. Do you guys really think that this all falls on just TWO people?? Favre and Mangini both played a PART in the collapse, but they are NOT solely responsible for it! Unreal. Does Favre play on the defensive line or draw up defensive schemes? Does he all of a sudden morph into a receiver and drop passes?? Also, Mangini, it is said, panicked after the Denver loss and changed the defensive scheme despite several players’ objections. He failed to stay the course and make necessary in-game adjustments. Favre is to blame only to the extent of his poor decision-making and thats it. That is ALL the blame that can fall directly on these two guys and nothing more. Sheesh! It’s like you guys forget that this is a team game and just buy all the media headlines. It’s MORE than Mangini and Favre……..believe me. It’s never one or two guys.
“Hiring coaches is such a crapshoot anyways, you never know. Its the same way with QB’s.”
Exactly. My feeling is that when Mangini was hired, the plan was to let him grow on the job, and build a foundation. I don’t think three years was a long enough time to decide that it wasn’t going to work.
I don’t think it’s far-fetched to say that the Favre decision was a deviation from the plan. Nor, do I think it’s lunacy to believe that bringing in Favre at a time when they were laying out PSL’s to their fans was more about money than football.
While Mangini made big mistakes, there is a lot of blame to go around for what happened. My view is that the owner approved a plan of action, deviated from the plan for a short-term gain, and then fired the coach whose plan he scrapped.
Personally, I would have liked to see Mangini given a token extension and at least another year to see better results (as I pointed out above, it took Jeff Fisher 6 years to have a winning season). I don’t think all young coaches are bad. I like giving young coaches a shot. I was all for hiring Mangini. My issue is that the owner and GM bailed on Mangini’s plan after only three years. What makes everyone believe they won’t do the same with the next young coach?
Again, I have to reiterate that Mangini left the door open for the Favre, “short-term gain,” by failing to develop a QB. That’s on him.
Furthermore, most reports have it that the Packers hoped Favre would retire the previous year, also. Wouldn’t that mean that McCarthy had Favre, “forced on him,” too? He somehow managed to get him to pay effectively to a 13-3 record and into an NFC Title Game.
“This team needs to stop being the same old Jets”
It starts with the fans. Seriously. The Mets knew their destiny in August, and the fans were already starting it. The media fed them and it grew until it permeated onto the field. Teams with strong fan support don’t choke year after year (once in a while of course).
“If we are to hire a 4-3 coach what does this do to our personnel? ”
On the same token, if you are convinced that the coach you have is the wrong guy for the job, you don’t keep him on in the final year of his contract just because you don’t want to change scheme, because that is just delaying the inevitable.
I prefer 3-4 for cap reasons, but the Giants have proven that a flexible 4-3 can work too, so I’m open to either. We should take the best guy for the job and if we have to change scheme, so be it. Taking the second best guy just because we don’t want to move things around is just short sighted because there will be a turnover of personnel whatever happens.
“I understand the concern, but what are they supposed to do once they fire the coach other than to interview as many qualified candidates and pick the one they like? ”
They can quickly hire a guy who will go 3-13 and 1-15 without doing any due diligence at all.
NFL Playoffs – A Pissed Jets Fan Figures Out Who To Root For
http://dagblog.com/humor-satire/nfl-playoffs-figuring-out-who-root-383
Subway- Favre had 18 years in that system and knew the WRs. It is a very different situation.
This is a repeat of the Chad debate. The people who wanted Mangini gone got their wish and will now fight to the death defending whomever is brought in to replace him.
SackDance: You’re absolutely right about Vinny’s injury. But the injury was compounded by Parcell’s stubborn insistence on using Rick Mirer instead of Lucas, and trusting Lucas only when the season was out of reach. Besides, the Pats just won 11 games without Tom Brady, so while an injury to a quarterback can be devastating, it needn’t be fatal.
I’m also amused at how people now call Herm’s hiring a huge mistake. As I recall, we went to the playoffs the first year, and everyone was praising him as someone who wiped out the whole losing culture on the team. Kind of like Mangini in his first year, too. Guess everyone has short memories.
Look, the bottom line is that when the Jets hired Mangini, he had exactly one year as a coordinator, so they had to know they were getting someone with possibly great potential who would need time to grow into the job. I don’t think three years is enough time, and he did post two winning records in that time. I always thought the Jets pulled the plug prematurely on Pete Carroll, too.
Meanwhile, everyone thinks Cowher is wonderful, but he had a couple of bad seasons in Pittsburgh that would have gotten him fired in New York before he had a chance to win the Super Bowl. Belichick’s first year in New England was awful. Jeff Fisher has had some terrible years. In a 16-game season, the difference between 10-6 and 7-9 isn’t so great — a couple of breaks here or there. Great franchises are built on patience.
There are some awesome comments in this thread. I tend to fall on the side of the SD99, Sec108, Harlan and Subway posts. I can’t see why anyone would hate Tanny, I think he’s done a great job, even if everything he’s done hasn’t worked out. No GM gets it right every time. I was a bit surprised by the Mangini firing, because even though he made mistakes (alot) down the stretch, he has shown promise. If they are going to fire every coach who makes mistakes then we will never have a coach longer than 5 years. FWIW, I was surprised 3 years ago when they fired Herm, too – though not necessarily disappointed. While I had a lot of problems with the preacherman, I didn’t think that 4-12 record was his fault. So I am hopeful that we bring in a good HC (don’t care much if he has past HC experience or not) and I am much more hopeful that we:
A.) dump Favre. It was a smart move that didn’t work out. Move on. and
B.) Stick with whoever they bring in for the LONG HAUL. While I respect Tanny and to a degree, woody, it does reek of a knee-jerk reaction to fire a guy who was heartily endorsed just 5 weeks earlier. Since they made that decision (knee-jerk or not), they should take their time and be thorough, because a decision this major shouldn’t be rushed.
Fred App — you are not wrong, but I think Mangini fell victim to a lot of things that were irreparable here. Jeff Fisher was a DC for seven years, and the Oilers were 1-9 when he took over. He followed with a 7-9 and then four 8-8s, and then went to the Super Bowl, His teams were consistently tough, and in those five years they had a winning record on the road and were a strong unit. But the same could have happened under Eric.
However, for every rookie coach that took his lumps like Jeff Fisher, I can name 10 that got worse. The Jets saw things they didn’t like, and like I mentioned, felt some were irreparable.
I think the firing of Mangini was hasty, unnecessary and possibly ill-advised, and I think it probably was done entirely at the owner’s discretion and thus caught Tannenbaum out a little bit. My read on this is that Johnson probably wanted a big name coach to create a splash, so there was a lunging flirtation with Cowher that ended up going nowhere and making the franchise look bad. That said, there’s nothing in what Tannenbaum has done since the firing to suggest that he isn’t doing a good job with his coaching search. He’s being very thorough and looking at a lot of candidates, and very few of those candidates are head-scratchers. People are impatient for something to be in place, but the coaches are largely not available.
I thought Herm and Bradway started off with a clear plan but ended up deviating from it and just riding the Parcells vets as long as they could. Mangini and Tannenbaum clearly had a plan as well, but the offseason moves (most notably the Favre one) suggested that they were starting to drift away from their plan as well. Someone new is going to come in and will inherit a roster that is superior to the one Mangini took over, but it’s up in the air as to whether or not they’ll have the time or patience to put their own stamp on the team.
However, I am a little confused about this line:
“Meanwhile, everyone thinks Cowher is wonderful, but he had a couple of bad seasons in Pittsburgh that would have gotten him fired in New York before he had a chance to win the Super Bowl.”
Cowher took over a bad team and made the playoffs in his first six seasons as HC, averaging 11 wins and winning the division 5 of the 6 seasons, and even made it to the Super Bowl one of those years. I would say he had the chance to make it right away, and you cannot compare sticking with Mangini and his 0-1 playoff record in three seasons to that. The three years that folllowed his first six were more like Mangini, but if Eric had reached the playoffs from 2000-2005 as Jets HC, I don’t think his 2006-2008 would have gotten him fired, as you suggest Cowher would have.
JAGG-
Agreed. I just don’t quite sign onto the narrative that Mangini was a helpless victim of Favre with absolutely no bearing at all on the outcome.
I wouldn’t have thought it was a terrible move to keep Mangini, assuming there were productive discussions about how to overcome his previous shortcomings, nor do I think it was a huge blunder to fire him. I’ll reserve judgment till I see who is hired an what that person presents as a winning strategy going forward.
About our 3-4 defense system- i think we got holes in there too, lack of talent- what else would explain our poor defense all season. I know some blame falls on sutton, but there got to be some personell issues there too. I think we can adjust to play both styles, and should depending on our opponent, keep teams confused.
Playing 4-3: DT- Mosley, Pouha, Jenkins, Coleman- will hold there own, DE: Ellis, VG- natural role, dont know how Devito will do
Our biggest question mark comes at LB playing either 3-4 or 4-3: Our LB did not play well enough this year- not getting enough pressure on the QB and couldn’t cover anyone! in the 3-4 missing: speedy middle LB to cover TE- to replace Barton. Was it talent with Pace and BT or was it poor coaching, poor schemes, not blitzing with them last year?
In the 4-3: Still need a speedy MLB, can any 2 play OLB: Harris, BT, Barton, or Pace- that is the Question? Can BT or Pace have some effectiveness at DE on pass rushing situations? Maybe Murrell too in pass rushing situations!
Need a coach that utilizes and maximizes the players talents, not just a scheme he demands to use!
Disagreements with this article:
1. Mangini had to go. The franchise is NOT worse off with Mangini gone. It’s just terrible in general. Lets face it. The Jets leadership have always ben experts at making the wrong decision:
The inability to put together a team, refusal to build around a 1st round QB, terrible drafts overall, refusal to draft and invest in a coach, etc, etc.
2. Favre is accountable, but anytime you’re blaming 1 person for the failure of a season you just sound like a joke. All that wheeling and dealing and we can’t find a big receiver to erase some of the mistakes of an aging QB? Why even bother?
And at the end of the day te coach is responsible for what goes down on the feild, not the QB.
Have to stick with the 3-4, otherwise we wasted the past three years shifting personnel.
Subway- believe me I would rather be wearing a KC jersey or whatever bum they groomed and gone 8-8ish than had to watch an over payed, old player help throw away our season. We needed to groom a QB. We still do.
personally, I’m not a fan of 3-4. I like getting pressure from the line.
But it’s more important that the jets bring in a coach that can execute the 3-4 and players with leadership personality to make it work. Otherwise it don’t matter.
Regarding the lack of a plan:
If the Jets had a clear cut first choice who was not a minority candidate, they would never be able to get a minority candidate to come in and interview. They would therefore be in violation of the Rooney rule. Accordingly, any smart team will pretend it has no frontrunners and that anyone who comes in prepared for the interview will be considered for the job. That way, the team can get people like Rivera and Frazier to come in and interview, allowing the team to comply with league rules.
Moreover, if a team announces who its main choice is, that candidate has considerable leverage and may use another team to ratchet up the salary demands.
In short, any team hiring a new coach would be stupid to declare any candidate as a front-runner or have a plan set in stone that is known to fans and or media. The last team I can recall that really did this was the Lions when Millen went after Mariucci with reckless abandon. That is no model to follow.
This article is a joke placing the collapse on Favre. Where were you when the team was 8-3??? What happened the last 5 weeks? The Defense fell apart the last 5 games. The last time I looked, Defense wins games and the JETS Defense was terrible. Let’s see, where did Favre play on Defense???
Mangini was the Defensive guru and he kept around a coordinator in Sutton who was incompetent. Again this is Favre’s fault. We’ve all complained about the conservative play calling on offense before Favre arrived. So I guess this is Favre’s fault too instead of blaming the real culprit, Brian Schott.
I would agree with having an offensive HC if his name is Shanahan. If not Shanahan, then the best choice appears to be Rex Ryan who has a proven history of playing tough D. And he runs a 3-4.
And Mangini deserved to be fired.
Ian – I agree completely. To me, the Jets firing of Mangini being the right move is debatable. That they are handling the HC search the right way is not.
Editor – I agree with some of your points (especially that the D sucked and Sutton must go), but you seem to be giving Favre a free pass. Were you watching the games? It may not have been ALL his fault on Offense (dropped passes, Shotty), but he certainly deserves a ton of blame on that side of the ball. It’s hard to out and out blame Shotty for all of it because you don’t know if Favre was making bad reads and/or audible-ing. He certainly seemed to lock in on one receiver ALOT, made horrible throws and often tried to force a lot of throws into tight coverage. Maybe his receivers weren’t open and he was trying to make a play – sometimes – but many times there was an open receiver he didn’t see. The announcers on TV commented on that at least a half dozen times during the last 5 games. 9 INTs in 5 games isn’t all Shotty’s fault.
ZOMG you guys! The (Ed)Itor like totally *hearts* Favre!!!
Just a quick question there, Ed. When you slobber Favre, who gets to go first, you or Peter King?
Thanks for giving me a perfect example of what I said before. The people who wanted Chad gone will fight to the death (of their own credibility) defending his replacement. Same with the people who wanted Mangini gone. Ed just happens to conveniently be one person who is an example of both.
The defense won us quite a few games. They started slipping when Jenkins got hurt. This is a team. I credit the defense for our winning streak more than the offense. The Run d was dominant against the Pats and Titans. When a team has issues teh other side has to pick up the slack. When the defense just gave up a long scoring drive how do you think it felt when two plays into the next drive Favre throws an INT? Now they defend a short field when they are already tired.
The team lost, but Favre sucked for most of the season. He had 7 multiple INT games and had 12 of his 22 TDs by week 4. He got 10 TDs in 12 games. He had 9 games with more turnovers than TDs. Screw his last 5 games he was 10/18 over the last 12. In that stretch he had two games without an INT STL and NE.
How anyone can defend that performance is beyond me. If his name was anything else we would have burned him in a public square.
Editor–agreed. In general, Mangini did lots of things as HC that I didn’t like, and I also didn’t care for the way he managed his coordinators. And there were a ton of problems this year. But for all those problems we were very close to winning the division, so I could have been ok with giving Mangini another season. At the same time, if management decided that the team would never get over the hump with him as coach, I can understand that too.
The only thing I won’t tolerate is a coach who will insist on a 4-3 or Tampa Two style defense and is not willing to work with the current talent. Mike Tomlin is a good example of a coach I respect for his decision not to scrap an existing defense in favor of his own system. It seems to have worked in Pittsburg.
seanmac, I guess we’ll find out, eventually, what management thought of Mangini, but from what I heard from Woody, it was not a “hasty” decision. I think the owner had issues with Mangini that winning would’ve papered over. Instead, the team collapsed. And, I don’t fault the Jets for their flirtation with Cowher; IMO he was the best former HC available. It would’ve been far worse for the franchise if the Browns had been able to lure Cowher. But, Cowher’s choice to remain retired sort of reveals as much about Cowher and his issues as it does about Woody’s. Bottom line: if Cowher wanted to coach the Jets, he’d be signed up by now. Cowher obviously has some other HC job in mind and my guess is that it will be a place with minimal media scrutiny and where he’ll get maximum control…Jacksonville? Houston? New Orleans?
i am actually a fan of the 3-4, which creates more confusion on the offense. the 3-4 is waaay more effective than the 4-3 when utilized effectively. any coach will tell you it is harder to read 3-4 defenses, as the most dominant defenses in the league have been 3-4 defenses ex. baltimore, steelers, patriots, chargers(last year when merriman was playing, lol) etc. so why not bring in someone who knows how to utilize the most effective defense and is well experienced…like say a…*cough* ….rex ryan?? i dont see what there is to debate or think about…..its quite simple if you ask me
wave,
1. the patriots dont count. they run a hybrid defense.
2. I agree that a 3-4 creates more confusion, but a 4-3 creates more pressure.
3. Lately I;m thinking that some of the picks are more suited for the 4-3 also. Check this:
Developing seconday could piggyback off a strong immediate pass rush, especially with slowass Elam.
Gholston.. if he aint a DE, he aint nothing.
Poouha is not a nose tackle, neither is Jenkins for that fact.
4. The chaps run a 4-3 and it got them a ring. In fact, out of the top ten in sacks ths year, mst of the teams run a 4-3.
All that being said, I’m all for T-Rex (haha, I made that up). I guess I’m just questioning whether we actually have the players to fit it.
the 4-3 is very generic and can easily get exploited, ecspecially in the pass game. but why is this even an issue? we have lined up personnel and adapted these players to the 3-4 system which wasnt a bad idea by mangini, so why switch it up and look for FA and trades to find people to make it work. One thing that bothers me about some jet fans is you never give things time to develope and work.
One thing that goes further than loading talent and coaching on a team is CHEMISTRY! For example the giants offensive line were a bunch of mediocre line men who just happened to get the chance to play in the same system with each other for a good amount of years and have developed them selves into probably the best o-line in the league.
Stop having a one or two year superbowl expectation level with everything, and give things a chance to develope as far as our players, personnel and coaches. For another example, some have the nerve to say “lets go after matt cassel and derek anderson” and not even give someone like ratliff the chance to prove if he’s worth a damn. Good thing for the patriots, and a bad thing for us, they dont give into such foolish philosophies…oh no!..drew bledsoe is injured, now we have to go sign somebody…better yet, lets give this kid brady a chance. It seems time has repeated itself and you they do the wise thing and give cassel a chance rather than bring in a total stranger who knows nothing about the system.
A 4-3 defense shouldnt even be a discussion at this point unless you wanna be saying the same damn thing every year..”same old jets”….its like being on a treadmill, doin a whole bunch of running come offseason, but not going anywhere…..
actually, I’m sorry, it’s 50/50 for the top ten sack producing teams. my bad.
I think one of the biggest (and least talked about) aspects of this whole thing, is that up until the Denver game, Farve was decent… Not great, but decent. At some point after that when it was obvious that he was hurting, someone (Mangini) had to grow some stones and sit Favre for a few weeks to recover from the torn biceps tendon…. If Clemens came in and **** the bed, then so be it, but he couldn’t have been much worse than Favre…
I honestly think the consecutive games streak Favre has going clouded his judgement on his ability to play the type of quality football his team needed from him down the stretch…
kev – good point.
During the Miami game I was screaming “Bench him” at the TV. That should always be an option, no matter what the players name is. The Rams benched Namath in LA, sometimes it just has to be done.
lgs,
i understand you as far as creating more pressure, being more big bodies rushing the passer, but you must have chemistry as far as knwoing your fellow players and your assignments. pressure can be easily beaten from 4-3 ecspecially through flats and screens. If the jets wanna re-adapt themselves expect a nightmare on defense the next couple seasons. The players we brought in are still getting acclimated to thier roles, ecpsecially pace and jenkins(who IS an effective NT)! No NT in the league is orginally an NT, even the good ones in Hampton, Rodgers, and Jenkins etc.
and i agree with you about gholston, it would be a nightmare to see him him drop back into coverage everynow and then. but as far as this 4-3 scenario being brought up, your talkin about giving people like pouha and devito consistent reps…are you sure you want that?? and you excepct us to even be competitve?? and ok the giants one it last year, by god’s graces as afr as blitzes and tyree’s prayer, but how about the last couple superbowl winners before that(pittsburgh and NE), those my friend are 3-4 defenses, and what works for the giants doesnt necessarily have to work for us…or the other 20 something teams that run the 4-3, but dont do anything…for god sakes the lions run the 4-3, if you wanna use another team’s succes, lol.
wave,
You sound kind of hostile. As I said a couple of times. I’m not against the 3-4 or Rex Ryan. Don’t have a cow.
However am pointing out that, just looking at the Jets roster right now, they don’t have the players to successfully run a 3-4. Especially 2 major tenets:
1-Ed Reed – a fast, versatile, ballhawking safety
2-Justin Bannan – a tackle that can hold up to the wear and tear of playing the nose all season and still be a force in the playoffs. (Very rare by the way)
3. Bart Scott – the speedy, versitle inside LB that can play the pass.
Now also, the Jets have 3 starters that fit 1 prototype in the 3-4 – That’s the versitle, LB/DE that can move up or down a la Terell Suggs, which are Calvin Pace, Gholston, and the great dissapointment that is known as Bryan Thomas.
It’s a great big pot of nuts.
Now, I’m more in favor of Ryan because he brings continuity and, hopefully, some Ravens personnel people. But Spags could make it work and installing a 4-3 is not antithetical to continuity because the Jets never really had a 4-3. They had a big mess.
Finally, let me just say. I don’t have superbowl expectations for the Jets. I just have an expectation of competancy when it come to the draft, free agents, and the game plan.
btw, i def. appreciate your point about chemistry. i’m just saying, either way, the parts have to be there.
Don’t know if this was posted yet, but here is Mike Lombardi’s post from his blog concerning the Jets coaching search:
The Jets are all over the board in their search and seem to be trying to cover all the bases and keep everyone involved in the process. This week, they are heading to Arizona to interview Russ Grimm and will also meet with Stanford coach Jim Harbaugh. Harbaugh has talked to the Rams, but he prefers to stay at Stanford, and once he finalizes his extension on the Farm, he will be out of the running for these jobs.
Now, back to the Jets, who seem to be looking under every rock for a new coach. I feel they don’t have a plan. They seem to be more interested in impressing their owner with a list of names and not focusing on what they really need. How do you interview Steve Spagnuolo of the Giants but not Jim Schwartz of the Titans (the Jets have not even requested an interview with Schwartz)? How do you interview Brian Schottenheimer but not talk to other young offensive minds? The Jets have to first ask what they want in a head coach this time. Do they want a young coach, an offensive coach or a defensive coach? Too much of anything means you have nothing, and they Jets need to have a shorter list and a clearer plan of action.
Everyone I talk to in and around the NFL feel this job is Schottenheimer’s. He is bright, he is young and he will work with GM Mike Tannenbaum. In the end, the Jets (i.e., Tannenbaum) are more interested in finding someone who will not challenge Mike T.’s power rather than getting the best coach. Why not hire Brian’s father Marty for two years and let him groom his son for the job? Marty would give the Jets instant credibility and he would be able to lay down a foundation for Brian as he grows into the head coaching position. Spending the money on Marty would be the best money the Jets could spend right now. In his memoir, Henry Kissinger said, “When you go to Washington to enter public life, you borrow on the intellectual power you bring and you cannot renew it while you are there.” The NFL is very much like this. Hiring Marty would allow Brian to gain on-the-job training.
Now, the reality of the situation is that it’s not an attractive job. The Jets are in a bad cap situation, they don’t have a young quarterback and they are faced with problems in their offensive line. The expectations are going to far exceed the results. Whoever gets this job will endure some sleepless nights.
Some points:
1. again, New England does not run a 3-4. They runa Belicek hybrid. It’s all everything.
2. I expect a nightmare every year.
3. If Pouha either should be getting consistent reps by now or not on the team. Too many busts on the Jets. They don’t k ow anything about player development. It’s ridiculous. But that either here nor there.
lgs,
oh nah, the second comment wasnt directed towards you, lol. i was just speaking out in general, more so on previous posts and responese ive seen, and kind of miffed that this topic would even be a raised issue. in my mind, siwtching back to the 4-3 shoudlnt even be worried about. if you wanna find a new coach, find one that can do the job better than the last with what we have, not reshape, remold, and readapt, you know what i mean? thats why i was never i a fan of the shannahan and spags inquiries. but you bring up some solid pints and analysis, but we’ll see what happens.
wave,
I feel ya. I can’t argue with that.
I’m still wondering why Clowney was inactive for the Dolphins game. Bench Favre and bring in KC? Miami’s defense was pretty good. KC fails there in a big game and, besides further insuring Mangini’s termination, you could ruin KC’s psyche, which needs rebuilding after his awful 2007. IMO, KC has only 1 more shot, then it’s the CFL for him, where he’d be great.
Mangini benching or even calling out Favre shows balls. I wouldn’t have cared if he put Smith in to play the rest of the game. You have to show that stupidity and carelessness won’t be tolerated. If he can get fired for a bad Seattle game. Favre can get benched for a bad string of games.
kevino, the Jets cap situation isn’t that bad. The cap is going up and it’s likely that Favre will retire. What problems with the OL?!? Brick and Mangold are young and good, Moore will still only be 29, and Faneca and Woody will turn, respectively, 32 and 33 next year…not that old for OL, who often play into their late 30s (if you want to see an old OL, look at the Skins). And, while the Jets don’t have an established young QB, they have 2 good prospects in KC and Ratliff and there’s plenty of free agent QBs to choose from or trades to make. Like I said in another post, the Jets job is a good HC job and the Jets should get their guy. I don’t know what to make about your Schwartz comment…how many DCs should the Jets interview? Also, press reports have already come out saying that the Schotty rumors are overblown.
JAGG, why just bench Favre? How about Lowery for his bad coverage on Ginn? Rhodes for poor coverage on Fasano? How about steal Westhof’s cane for the blocked PAT or the blocked punt? How about making Stuckey retroactively deactivated for taking his eyes off of a simple slant? That “Any Given Sunday” speech keeps on repeating: “… either, we heal, now, as a team, or we will die as individuals. That’s football guys, that’s all it is.” After TJ’s comments and all the unnamed sources, we know this Jets team died as individuals, which is probably the biggest indictment of Mangini.
I think all the talk came because Mangini was fired. Most of the people talking were Mangini guys.
Lowery’s coverage saved the flea flicker and was a rookie. Way too slow to be on Ginn and that touchdown was a well palced throw same as Fasano’s. A blown coverage on special teams happens. Why did Favre zero in on Stuckey for 3 straight plays? We could have done all that tho.
Benching Favre sends a message, which benching Rhodes might do, but Lowery is a rook who saw the bench often. Favre on the other hand threw an INT on a screen and had a 10 to 18 TD to INT ratio over the last twelve games.
My post at 1:41pm today goes into greater detail of his horrible season.
sackdance, you’re on the money!
DRose didn’t you just make a post yesterday that said you’ve been in Europe for the past 12 days and that’s you’ve been clueless as to what’s been going on with the team? Pretty ballsy to then today say that there’s no plan in the coaching search.
The only stand out individual on our team was Brett Favre. The guy who whined in Green Bay for a WR and called on the last day of OTAs to say he changed his mind. No he is a saint and a team player.
Sackdance:
Those weren’t my opinions, that was just what Mike Lombardi posted on his blog. While I don’t agree with everything he says, I do agree with having an idea of what you want before the interview process and then interviewing the candidates that best fit those ideals. Also while Faneca and Woody might not be that old, Faneca did not have a great year last year (especially not for a bro bowl), and I’m not sure how much longer Woody will last as a tackle (especially against the pass).
No player in the Miami game made as many mistakes as Favre. I can’t think of anyone on the team who made as many mistakes as Favre all season. That includes bad throws, targeting one reciever, Ints, a 20yd sack, and throwing past the line of scrimmage.
JAGG, the Ginn throw was a good throw, but it hung up and Lowery looked back, got a little turned around and mistimed his jump. If he had stayed with Ginn, who was pushing off (which is a key to the DB that the ball is going over him, not under) he would have either broken up the play or had an outside chance for the INT. Frustrating thing about that play was Lowery’s failure to read the push off. The Fasano ball was a total misread by Rhodes and (the other DB?). Rhodes had the inside covered, and Fasano was indicating an inside pass, but the pass came to the outside (where the other DB should have been) and Rhodes did not react well and neither did the other DB. Oh, and that pass had plenty of air under it, too. That pass had no business being completed in double coverage, nor did the flea flicker. Those were 3 long pass plays that were completed against the Jets, but would’ve been INTs against the Ravens.
The other DB was Elam. I thought he had a better shot at the ball and had a chance to jump the route. The flea flicker failed and there was single coverage down field. Chad threw into the end zone for his recievers. Coles needed YAC to get Favre one. All the Dolphins did was shut down the run and we fell apart and Favre gave them 7 points.
I can deal with a defense giving up points. It is maddening when an offense does it.
kev – I agree that hiring Marty would be a good idea, but I strongly disagree with some of the points at the end of your post.
You wrote:
“The Jets are in a bad cap situation, they don’t have a young quarterback and they are faced with problems in their offensive line.”
They’re cap situation isn’t all that bad (I’m sure Bent will correct me if I’m wrong), they have 3 young QBs and they have far bigger problems than their Oline right now.
kevino, to take the glass half-full view on Woody, it was his first full season at RT and he wasn’t exactly taxed in his tenure with the Lions (he was injured and benched for quite a bit of his time there)…I would consider him a “young” 32. Faneca, on the other hand, might be an “old” 33 and he was not great at pass protection, but he was still an animal in the running game. Hopefully, the Jets QB won’t have to pass over 520 times again. Also, the Jets OL only gave up 30 sacks, good for 7th in the AFC…not bad and a drastic improvement over the 53 they allowed in 2007…I think that was the NFL’s best improvement from ‘07 to ‘08. Just think how many fewer sacks there would be if the Jets play action passed more?
Sack – I agree that those passes shouldn’t have been completed, but the point is that benching Favre for 5 sh**ty games makes sense while benching Rhodes, Stuckey or Lowery for a bad play here or there does not. I see your point about KC’s psyche, but I think if they benched Favre in the 2nd half (even just the 4th qtr), it would’ve showed that Mangini had balls and also wouldn’t have ruined KCs career if he had a bad quarter. More than anything, it would have been the right thing to do – not too many QBs can play that bad for that long and not get benched.
Bench rhodes and lowery? Ok, their play hasn’t been great, but not so blatantly bad to where its costing us games!….unlike someone else who wears #4. Granted the jets as a team were outplayed and outcoached but none as horribly visible as favre’s play. I can almost garauntee NO quarterback with enough skill to play in the NFL could have done worse than favre had done down the stretch, point bank period!
I still think the Lowery ball would have been completed. Lowery has been killed all season by weak(some fair) pass interference calls. Darelle Revis gave up a similar TD against Dallas last year.
JAGG, Favre came right back after the pick 6 and got 3 back and, then, completed the 2-point conversion on a bullet to make up for the missed PAT…so, by my count Favre cost the team 3 points, net. I didn’t like the pick 6 and it was the margin of victory, but the final INT was, IMO, more of Stuckey’s fault…he was under no pressure, he just whiffed (and Favre put a little too much pace on it, but it was week 17…the WRs had to know Favre whistles his passes in). I guess what I don’t like about the Favre bashing is that the last INT, which was the last nail in the coffin, was not “ill-considered” or “reckless” or a “gunslinger” pass. It was a short slant, probably the safest pass in football, that went right through the WR’s hands. Also, the Fins had stopped the running game, so the offense was all in Favre’s hands. Some might think a guy who was injured who was battling all game and had his team near the redzone for the tying score, despite the many mistakes the team had made (him included), was heroic, not an “individual.”
That drive was mostly Stuckey and YAC. That credits play calling and the ball was high, catchable but high. The play was rushed because he misread the defense too. His injury doesn’t even require surgery. It was an excuse.
His body is falling apart. It wasn’t this one injurt it is the hundreds an 18 year career cause. I know how my broken bones can act in the cold I can’t imagine how his do.
Stuckey’s fault?…lmao! Favre has some of the best lawyers, all of whom don’t get paid for their services.lol
There is no plan. Reason being is Tannenbaum is a lawyer, not a football guy. As a result, he has limited relationships with coaches. He is searching deep and wide to gain a football education from all the different strategies, plans, and approaches these candidates will present. If he had a plan, he certainly doesn’t seem to be executing it too well or swiftly. I hate to be negative, but failing to plan is a plan that will fail. We, as fans, are being set up for only more instability and disattisfaction with the organization, because hope is not a plan either and at this stage of the game, Tannenbaum is hoping to find a good head coach. As a fan, I can only hope he is lucky.
JAGG, I disagree. The pass wasn’t high and he didn’t misread the defense. Stuckey had lots of room and Favre wanted to hold the LBs and safeties to help Stuckey get more YAC. I heard Baker say that the whole team knew Favre was really hurting and couldn’t take anything for the pain. Again, if you look at Favre without drinking the Haterade, maybe he wasn’t as awful as he’s made out to be. With that said, I don’t want him back. The franchise has to figure out whether KC or Ratliff has the makings of an NFL QB and the team should try to get a FA, like Leftwich, who could still be a star in the NFL (the same is true with Derek Anderson, who has to learn to throw the short stuff better, Leinart and some others I may be missing). If the team were closer to a Super Bowl or had a career back up ready to step in, I’d feel differently. But, as I said before the draft last year, when a team has a hole at the QB position, it dooms the team to mediocrity and inconsistency. Sooner or later, even if the team makes the playoffs, a QB will be tested and will have to make all the NFL throws. It’s time to find out if the Jets have a franchise QB on the roster. BTW, because I think the Jets have to figure out if KC or Ratliff are bona fide, I would not draft a first-day QB. But, if Sanchez lasts to 17…what do the Jets do?
SackDance99,
You are right about that last int that Favre through. It was a hurry up play that was suppose to be a safe slant. Favre threw the ball a bit high but Stuckey should have still caught.
However, Favre’s tenure in New York will not be defined by 1 play or 2 plays or 5 plays… Looking at the overall picture and Favre’s overall statistics, ,looking at his performance down the stretch when it mattered the most… Looking at the collapse of the entire Jets team (everyone included… One has to use his better judgement and realize that Favre needs to go…
And ill tell you why…
Stating that Favre wasnt the cause of the collapse is fine by me, but Favre was brought in to prevent a collapse..
Favre was brought in to to the team to another level. He was brought in to bestow a winning mentality upon this team. He was brought in to be a leader and help this team win in December. He was brought in to help this team when it needed him the most…
At that, he failed… He didnt live up to name and was unable to “breathe life into the jets” when they were down.. He was unable to “rally the troops” and inject the winning spirit. Players were no having fun…
The Jets could have saved $12 million and played Kellen Clemens. He would have done the same thing that Favre would have done when the Jets began to Collapse…
Saying that Favre was the “only” reason why the Jets collapsed is foolish. We win as a team, and we lose as a team.
Bottom line… The FACT that Favre collapsed along with the Jets makes this season for Favre a failure.
wave, I said “more of Stuckey’s fault” Favre has to catch his slants, too? Favre has more haters than Hitler! WOW, what else did he do wrong? Did he help Madoff? Date Natalee Holloway? Recount ballots in Minnesota? LMFAO….
david i, there is a plan. None of the assistant coaches still in the playoffs is available to hire and nobody knows who else might become available in the next couple of weeks. Even if the coordinators all crap out, Billick, Marty Schott, and Shanahan will still be out there. Maybe Gruden gets fired, maybe Andy Reid gets fired…you never know. I don’t know why a thorough search for a new HC isn’t smart?
David I,
I hate to repeat this in the same post, but this is typical damned if they do, damned if they don’t stuff to me. Last time around the Jets were criticized for jumping on Mangini so fast without interviewing enough other candidates, this time they are attempting to interview a hoarde of coaches and its decried as “not having a plan”? Typical.
Speaking of typical so is the Jets bashing by the media back in full force again whether its Gary Meyers – Woody blew it by not cow towing to Cowher or Peter King forgiving Cowher for bailing on the Jets so fast because the franchise seems “rudderless”. What franchise looking for a coach doesn’t seem rudderless?
As for “the plan”, why do we have to settle on either an offensive or defensive guy, a college guy or a coordinator, can’t we intereview all types and decide who we like afterwards? Is that not allowed? Apparently not, looks too much like we have no plan. And for that matter are we searching for a soul mate here or just a coach? There seems to be a notion here that there is only one right man for the job, while I would hope that many would be able to suceed.
Najy, I think the good that Favre did has been totally obscured by the final 5 weeks, which saw a complete breakdown in all 3 phases of the game. The Fins game was a microcosm. Sure, if Favre threw 3 picks in the face of a great defensive game and stellar special teams play, then I’d agree with the haters. But, everyone wanted a Superman at QB, who could make up for bad defense, special teams AND coaching. That’s just unrealistic. Mangini paid with his job and, no matter what, Favre’s illustrious career has been tainted by his performance. So, they both paid for this season. But, I don’t want to hear yapping from anyone. For every INT, there’s a receiver that has to play defense (your telling me TJ couldn’t have tackled Merling? The only player that hit the turf trying to tackle him was our 39-year old, injured QB). I think if this team wants to get to the next level, each player has to look in the mirror and commit himself to playing better next season. In this regard, the only Jets that I’ve heard that have the right attitude have been Jenkins and Baker. The next coach doesn’t have to rebuild the team as much as the team’s psyche.
sec 108, I agree completely.
I really don’t hate the guy, nor do I love him like lots of people blindly do. And just in case someone tries to bring up pennington for some reason(most favre worshipers do) I don’t love or dislike that guy either, I think they are both talented qb’s or one WAS, if I must say. But its crazy how some people try soo hard to analyze, critque, and break down plays just to justify favre’s short comings. Lol. I wish the other jet players had that priveladge, for example kerry rhodes, lol. All I’ve heard was how much he sucked this season, maybe what if he was trying too hard to pick up the slack for everyone else on the field not named revis and was continually caught out of position?lol. Fact of the matter, jets DID suck as a team down the stretch, and replay after replay should even show favre’s first cousin that that was a bad pass he through stuckey…..too high and off line.So some one break down the screen pass interception for me, lol. With praise comes criticism twice as hard, that’s new york for you.
lol. ha. D.Rose is actually Woody Johnson.
Stop calling Elam a DB. He’s really an old fat girl in disguise. He wouldn’t make most teams.
SackDance99,
I agree. Its a team effort but but Favre played bad. I just dont see Favre being part of the long term solution for the Jets. He might be a short term solution but the Jets are not going to win a Superbowl anytime soon. They might not be a contender next year, even with Favre.
So my question to you is… If Favre is not the long term answer and the Jets will not win a Superbowl in the near term, what is the point of having an old Qb who is at the end of his career?
Wouldnt it be more prudent to give some of our younger Qb’s experience in order to to find a long term solution?
Sack – I agree that the last INT should have been caught, but you are playing devil’s advocate and giving favre too much slack. It wasn’t all his fault, but did he play like crap or not?
I really don’t hate the guy, nor do I love him like lots of people blindly do. And just in case someone tries to bring up pennington for some reason(most favre worshipers do) I don’t love or dislike that guy either, I think they are both talented qb’s or one WAS, if I must say. But its crazy how some people try sooo hard to analyze, critque, and break down plays just to justify favre’s short comings. Lol. I wish the other jet players had that priveladge, for example kerry rhodes, lol. All I’ve heard was how much he sucked this season, maybe what if he was trying too hard to pick up the slack for everyone else on the field not named revis and was continually caught out of position?lol. Fact of the matter, jets DID suck as a team down the stretch, and replay after replay should even show favre’s first cousin would acknowledge that was a bad pass he through stuckey…..too high and off line.So some one break down the screen pass interception for me, lol. With praise comes criticism twice as hard, that’s new york for you.
Most sports fans – and voters for that matter – don’t like complex explanations for failures, they want one guy to blame. Clearly, most Jet fans have picked either Favre or Mangini to hang their resentments on. Personally, I thought Favre brought a lot of good things to the team, played well at times and also played awfully and hurt the team at other times. I’d say the same about Mangini.
As for the calls for the benching of Favre, I’d rather have a coach with the ability to reach, inspire, motivate all kinds of players – even aging superstars – to play within the game plan, than someone whose best move is to take them out of the game.
Sorry, didn’t mean to post the same thing twice
“This team looks like it cares more about filling Woody’s pockets then it does producing a long-term championship caliber team.”
Wow, exactamundo! Give this man a cigar! Couldn’t have said better myself. Woody, like other sport team owners,(i.e. Jim Dolan (Knicks) only care about the $!!!!! Period.
We will NOT see a Jet’s (or Knick’s for that matter) championship until these d**&%heads owners leave. And at this point who knows when that will happen considering they are not going to sell anytime soon. The hope and suffering goes on…..
“This team looks like it cares more about filling Woody’s pockets then it does producing a long-term championship caliber team.”
Wow, exactamundo! Give this man a cigar! Couldn’t have said better myself. Woody, like other sport team owners,(i.e. Jim Dolan (Knicks) only care about the $!!!!! Period.
We will NOT see a Jet’s (or Knick’s for that matter) championship until these d**&%heads owners leave. And at this point who knows when that will happen considering they are not going to sell anytime soon. Our hope and suffering goes on…..
uhhhhh, does anyone seem to realize they can’t hire Spags or Rex Ryan until they are out of the playoffs, so why is everyone under the sky is falling mentality
sec108…I respect your position, but the facts are the facts…Tannenbaum is not a football guy. He is a lawyer. It is good that he is interviewing all these candidates, as he is using this exercise as a learning experience. But it demonstrates the lack of a plan that you would have thought they would have had since the hatchett on Mangini came so fast. If Tannebaum has a plan, what do you think it is? Since he has no relationship with any of theses candidates, what could his plan be? Yes, it can be to interview as many people as possible and find the best guy, but I can’t say I’m too fired up that his legal experience greatly outweighs his football experience. Maybe if he was interviewing new outside counsel, I would be comfortable. But after the way the hatchetted Mangini for his decision to get Favre, I can’t say I have high expectations.
sackdance–i agree with a lot of what you say, but don’t try and tell me d’bust is a good offensive lineman. he is clearly the worst of the starting five and below average compared to the rest of the league.
I’ve given up trying to tell ian that Ferguson is good.