Link: ‘It’s Never Us Vs. the Coaches’
Brian Costello of the NY Post gets some ringing endorsements from players on the Ravens defense about their Defensive Coordinator. Here’s Trevor Pryce on the subject:
“It was never us versus the coaches the way it is some other places,” Pryce said today. “It’s always the Ravens versus whoever, and that’s the biggest compliment I can give him … especially in our defensive room, what Rex has done, and I compliment him on this all the time, is he has kept it likable,” Pryce said. “It’s easy to police yourself when you’re given that leeway.
“It’s one thing if you have a coach or the Gestapo or something like that and he’s always like, ‘You stink. You did this, you did that.’ [Ryan] doesn’t have to do that because we do it ourselves, and that’s what makes it likable. That’s what makes it one of those things where you say, ‘I don’t want to let down my teammates, but I don’t want to let my coaches, either, because we are all the same.’ That’s one thing I felt when I first came here.”
Like the rest of the Ravens, Pryce is resigned to the fact Ryan will leave for the head job with the Jets New York Jets or Rams, and that he is ready for the challenge.
“There is no question about it. I’d like to sit up here and say something different so he stays, but I can’t do that to him,” Pryce said. “He’s going to be a fantastic head coach.”
Obviously the Ravens have it together. One part is the coaching, but the other big part is the players. Knowing what little I do about the Ravens players, I think there’s some similarities (minus that whole “Stabby Ray” thing) to the Jets players, I hope that they would respond to Ryans “we’re all adults here” attitude.
Filed under: Links, Main Page, News
oh man, I want this guy!!!!!!
we need a hard ass but also a players guy… i have a feeling ryan if we get him.. is gonna bring a massive change in defense… hes gonna bring exotic blitz schemes and constant looks… he used ngata as a mlb to confuse the o line of the dolphines maybe he would do that with jinx… all players love him and i think he would turn pace into a beast and hopefully develop gholsten into the freak he can be… and what does everyone think about brining in bart scott or ray ray cuz suggs i think will be too expensive and we have olb’s whereas scott or lewis can control the inside… and i heard t.o. would be cut… think he can be the dynamic reciever we all know we need.???
chris,
Please, for the love of god, no T.O. Especially if we’re developing a young QB. (Besides, the guy’s past his prime anyway.)
Hey I love TO. I would buy his jersey in a heartbeat. That being said he is old, and a headache let someone else deal with him.
Harlivs–
RE: Stucky, Keller and Clowney– what you are assuming is that you have a better eye for talent than the entire Jet organization. Yet, you have never seen these guys at one practice, one team meeting, one position meeting, one training camp or minicamp. I thought Stuckey was great too, but his playing time showed me I was wrong.
Thomas Jones– He is a nice back. There is nothing wrong with him. But he is not a top 10, or even top 15 back ,all things even (o line, injury), in the league right now. He is probably the 3rd best back in the DIVISION (Brown and Lynch). Total yards does not determine how good a back you are.
Sorry this is way off topic, its from another post that is burried.
yea but then again… ihe still puts up monster numbers.. I think rex ryan would keephim in check… plus we have good receivers so its not like he would get constant doubles… I think he could make an impact
Lol btw did anyone see the ny post called him the ryan king lmao
Guys, this is off-topic but what do you think of Matt Sanchez?
Originally, I wasn’t sold on his ability (its hard to judge someone playing with all that talent around him, e.g., Matt Leinhart), but I think he’s the real deal, and might still be on the board when the JETS pick (although Sam Bradford staying means Sanchez’s stock has risen).
I think Ainge sucks, so essentially you’d be brining in the heir apparent, who would compete with Kellen and Brett Ratliff for the starting and backup positions, respectively. Then, if KC and Ratliff prove not to be the answer behind a revamped offensive line and running game, we’ll have someone we groom for 1 year at least until he is ready.
This kid is growing on me, and it would be nice to have a specimen at the position (I know, Clemens was supposed to be). I figure the worst-case scenario is that we have a very talented kid playing behind a reinvigorated Clemens or an upstart Ratliff. Either way, its hedging your bets at the position and giving yourself more possible positive outcomes at QB. If Clemens and Ratliff did suck next year, we’d have a future potential starter to fall back on.
Similarities between the players? Do you think the leaders of the Ravens defense would have allowed themselves to collapse like the Jets did this year? You are closer to them, so I’ll take your word for it, but man- Ray Lewis may be an unpleasant person but he works his butt off to get ready for Sunday. Shaun Ellis, anybody?
I would love to get Mark Sanchez, but I doubt he”ll be there at 17. Would also love to get Knowshown Moreno, but don’t think he”ll be there either.
From some of the comments from JETS players after Mangenius was canned, it would appear to me that if and when REX gets the job, there will either be some changes in attitude or there will be some ex-JETS. Players who come to mind are Coles and Baker. Both being gonzo would make me happy.
DaveTN: I believe that Kerry Rhodes and Revis have a great attitude in the secondary. Don’t they do (or at least claim to do) a lot of extra film work, together as a unit, in their free time?
I think Bryan Thomas has had a crappy attitude in the past, but bounced back in terms of decent production, and that Calvin Pace and David Harris have great attitudes.
It seems Jenkins — when fresh at least — has the inner mean streak necessary to thrive in the NFL in either the 3-4 or 4-3.
I disagree that Shuan Ellis has a bad attitude. Yes, the off-the-field problems were upsetting, but I think he works hard.
I just don’t think attitude was their biggest problem last year! It was lack of depth in the secondary, and very inconsistent pressure all year long.
This is great. Although there’s a lot of fat to be cut on Jets defensive roster, one of the biggest deficiencies is chemistry and team spirit. It seems like Rex would be perfect for that. But keep in mind that all those things don’t necessarily transfer to head coaching jobs.
I’m all for it though. D-REX, D-REX, D-REX!!!!
Wikipedia is saying that Rex Ryan is the Jets head coach
Shaun Ellis is better suited for the 4-3, not the 3-4. He’s getting up there in age and counts $5mil against the cap next year. I say part ways and move on
Bart Scott, Terrel Suggs or Ray Lewis would be awesome additions.
If the Jets go after T.O. I guarantee you Favre comes back next year to play.
Karlos Dansby is another player the Jets should consider. He used to play alongside Pace.
I think drafting a quarterback in the 1st round would be a waste for the Jets (even if it is Matt Sanchez). If they are built to win now then I say draft someone who can contribute right now. Not a QB whose going to sit his first season to prepare for the future. I don’t think this draft has another Matt Ryan
DSmizzle. I think the Dirthy Sanchez (could not resist) is decent, but we have the pieces in place to succeed in near term. Barring a Flacco or Ryan miracle he would most likely not help us in next year or two. Would rather take chances Ratliff or one of two Browns QBs if Mangini would ever trade them to us. but that is wishful thinking
Shaun Ellis may have been the best defender we had last year. He has been a good Jet and a soldier. I’d be upset to see him go.
Jeeeeez,…..you consider ELLIS to have off the field issues??? Lay of the guy,……. who hasn’t smoked a lil weed and thrown a snowball?? Lighten up! But you guys want ray lewis who was on trial for murder to keep him in check?? Some of you guys are real nit picky and naïve, its not that serious, ellis has always been considered a good teammaten he’s not captain for no reason.
Come on guys, the snowball was all in good fun guys.
Both of you are a little right. Ellis is a great DE. He’s a monster in the 4-3 with viable DE on the right side.
But he hasn’t been special in the 3-4, which is surprising because he’s built for it at 6-5 285.
That may change with a new regime, some new motivation and gutchecking. I’ve always been a big Ellis fan and he’s not too old yet.
how is ellis not suitable for the 3-4 rather than the 4-3?? he’s a sizeable guy, he didnt have bad years….and he’s more powerful than anything….ellis is not fsat enough to come off the edges in a 4-3. the guy is still good, what is the problem here??
ridinmywave:
I said the off-the-field stuff was “disturbing”. I was not happy to hear about it (a/k/a disturbed), though I don’t know where I said, directly or through implication, that he had a ton of off-field problems! The “disturbing” thing about it wasn’t that he had some weed or was speeding, but that he made bad decisions that could have affected the JETS season, particularly if he were suspended for his actions (he is a team captain and people are supposed to follow his lead).
Anyway, as for drafting Sanchez, here is my rationale (assuming he’s still there):
Even if this is a “win-now” team, that doesn’t guarantee success. So unless there was a stud CB or SS that fills a huge need, we should have insurance that we have a QB of the future on our roster. While KC never got a fair shot with a good team and Ratliff has played very well, albeit in the preseason against 3rd stringers, neither engenders all that much confidence in me as a JETS fan. Both have high flop potential. So if you have the unique opportunity to draft a guy of Sanchez’s caliber at 17, I say you do it as insurance for the future. Even if this team is built to “win now”, they still have to try to win 2 years from now!
It’s Mark Sanchez guys, not Matt.
He’d be a solid pick at 17 to hedge our bets as somebody else said. The one scary thing is the nearly complete lack of success of non-senior QB’s in the draft. But without Bradford coming out, he probably won’t get there. We’ll be in fine position to draft a wideout or a linebacker though.
At this point beyond who our head coach is going to be I’d be most concerned with how we’re going to get under the cap (cutting Ellis is an idea but who starts at end?), what we’re going to do with Barton (if he leaves who starts at ILB next to Harris?), what we’re doing at free safety, and what we’re doing at quarterback. A WR to stretch the field, a corner to play in nickel or push Lowery to start, youth/depth on both lines, and a bruising back are secondary needs that deserve a look also.
He got 8 sacks this year which led the team. That is more than a lot more heralded players. I can’t believe this is a topic.
Year Team G Total Solo Ast Sck
2008 New York Jets 16 60 41 19 8.0
Richard Seymour
2008 New England Patriots 15 52 35 17 8.0
It’s not so much that Ellis isn’t suitable for the 3-4. As far as build he’s perfect for the 3-4. But he hasn’t been productive in the 3-4. When they changed to that defense, his production dipped big time.
Because 3-4 DE’s don’t get sacks. Their job is to occupy the line, so the linebackers can make plays.
Players that need to be replaced:
Bowens, why is he there?
Brian Thomas, why is he there, not doing much for the price?
David Barret, payed like a starter, doesn’t start.
Abram Elam, damn near immobile
Ty Law, I mean, why?
I beg to differ greenguy,
3-4 DEs also have to intimidate, hold their position, hold the line, so that LBs can make plays. Ellis was out of position or pushed aside lots of times.
Again, coming from an Ellis advocate, he’s still growing into that 3-4. Also, having absolute crap at RE hurt hima lot these past few years.
Coleman – he’s a starter or not? Can he at least return kicks?
Jets need a starter right away with the 17th pick, taking a QB in the first round may not be the best idea, unless they think that QB can contribute this year, considering they are going to need some starters on defense. Ellis is more than a sufficient DE, look at Pittsburgh and Balt. D’s, all the sacks are supposed to come from the LB’s. Hopefully once Ryan is the new HC, this will get corrected because Pace and Thomas, if used correctly are better than average pass rushers.
Inside Info.:
Rex Ryan will be made an offer as soon as the Jets officially can make it.
A Super Bowl is NOW within reach! Within three years!
If Ratliff turns out to be the real deal and is as cool as Joe Flacco in the playoffs…. The 2009 Season will be the Jet Super Bowl Year.
i mean honestly, i dont see any logic in drafting ANOTHER young qb to bring into camp to make things more complicated this off season. there is not ONE THING that sanchez or bradford(if he was coming out) has over ratliff or clemens at this point.
we have a load of young qbs that havent even gotten a chance to prove a THING! ……but yet, we should get a college standout who his unproven? Clemens(im not a big fan) did get a shot last year, and i kno he didnt do much with it despite the fact we have a revamped offense now, he should probably get a chance (i’d rather him not, but im being fair)…and Ratliff has done nothing but impress in the little bit of shine he has gotten. If anything he looks VERY promising, he did well in college just like any other prosopect?? Besides a cannon of an arm, he has shown good pocket presence and speed on the field??? and his accuarcy has never been of question??? He has given us NO reason to doubt his ability, and yet some wanna say “it was against 2nd and 3rd stringers??”….ok how about bradford, teibow(not even a nfl qb) and sanchez who performed well against a bunch of school kids and walk-ons who dont even want to pursue an NFL career!!
F.Y.I….a first round qb doesnt necessraily mean success….its funny how matt ryan and flacco can make you forget. As a matter of fact there are numerous standout qbs in the nfl whom are stars in compared to the supposed 1st round aspiring peyton manning careers.
fact of the matter, yuou guys throw all you apple is one basket as if these guys coming out of college are a SURE thing, the NFL draft is a crap shoot, you never really know…
so i guess we forget that men such as chris weinke, tim couch, joey harrington, ryan leaf, david carr and co. existed……or should i keep going down the list???
sanchez is a great prospect… hes tall (6′3) and mobile threw over 34 td to only 10 ints… sarkisian said hes the most dedicated and hard working qb hes ever coached has a quick release and compact as well was injured nd may be cause for concern but he played his ass off in the rose bowl…
Kewpie to Igs. There are others I would put on that list (Kenyon Coleman, Bubba Franks, Drew Coleman are examples). But yours is a solid start.
I think all the talk about Ryan addresses only one half of the Jets problem — defense.
But if he is forced to keep Shott, and Cimini’s article today offers some actual insightful reporting as to why he might, the offensive problems remain:
“Initially, there was talk in league circles that Ryan would target Ravens quarterbacks coach Hugh Jackson as his offensive coordinator, but friends say Ryan learned a lesson two years ago while interviewing for the Chargers’ head-coaching vacancy. Ryan didn’t want to hire Ted Cottrell as his defensive coordinator – that was the preference of GM A.J. Smith – and it may have been a reason why he lost out to Norv Turner, who agreed to Cottrell. Turner wound up firing Cottrell this season. ”
I have been thinking Ryan would be foolish to get stuck with Shott as his OC with Tanny obviously next on the hot seat. If things go south, Tanny could be let go which would sink him too.
But, I thought of a clever out for Ryan. He should insist on bringing in his own QB coach and designating him an assistant HC. If things, as I suspect, don’t work out with Shott, he doesn’t have to look far for his solution. He just gives play calling to his guy who has spent all the OTAs and practices with the team and is Ryan’s guy. Problem solved with no muss — no mess.
If he takes Shott and doesn’t do this, frankly, I have little hope for Gang Green — or Tanny’s future here. It means he does not understand what he is getting into or lacks the balls to address our problems.
harlan
Thomas is a terrible pass rusher. And he’d paid like a starter. He only relies on his speed. If you look at him, physically, yo can tell he’s not putting in hours in the gym. And he’s constantly wiffing on QBs. Considering his draft # and his pay, the Jets should cut him and try to make something out of Pace and Gholston as similar, but younger prototypes in the 3-4.
Dansby would be a good MLB to put next to Harris. haven’t watched his cover skills though.
Good pickups Lachman.
there is nothing these available college QBs can bring to this team AS IS, that the QBs on our team cant. When opposing teams and scouts huddle in thier meetings and watch film on us. theres nothing that their gonna pay more attention to or prep for a sanchez, bradford, or whomever else that they wouldnt do for a clemens or ratliff.
If anything, both guys that we have are acclimated to our system (even ainge,lol), coahces, and teammates, they have got a chance to pick the brains of a couple great qb’s, they have game experience, and most of all they are building chemsitry and alot of jet fans have a habit of wanting to recycle every offseason…and you wonder why we never reach greatness… chemistry!!
Somebody is always having to get used to somebody or someone is always still learning to do this and that…..i mean for god sake, at least give these guys a chance to prove that they are not worth a damn, before you throw em out the window. thats all i ask
Wave,
i wold say that the QB of the future simply isn’t on this team. For that reason alone I’d spend a high pick on a QB of the future. It’s obvious that this team need so much tweeking that it’s no longer a win now team.
In my dreams the Jets would spend there first 3 picks on a QB and a big receiver and a RB and take care of the D with quality second day steals.
Mark my words. If the Jets don’t take care of that WR situation, no matter waht QB or HC is in there, they WILL fail again.
The jets could also consider taken Josh Freeman with a later pick.
ridinmywave:
It would certainly be reasonable to say its more likely than not that the JETS do not have a star QB on their roster, even if KC hasn’t gotten a fair shake and Ratliff hasn’t started a game yet.
And I guess the failure of 1st-round picks in the past means we should never draft a highly-regarded QB, and because Tom Brady was a 6th-round pick, that is probative of the likelihood that Ainge will be a great NFL QB?
Its been proven over and over again that picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds are more likely to succeed, regardless of their position, than 3-7th round picks (and the 3-7th round picks have the advantage of having many, many more players in them than just the 1st 2 rounds!
Wave,
your blaming the fans for the mess that the past few regimes and the front office has made of this franchise. it’s not my fault they draft players just to draft them. The Patriots don’t do that. They bring in 2nd day players and make champions out of them. We bring in day 1 plaers and send them to other franchises to become stars. Not the fans’ fault.
Just for argument’s sake, I think Brian Brohm, currently the third-string QB for the Packers, is a better prospect than anyone in the draft this year. I would rather trade a second or third rounder for him than spend a first-rounder in this year’s draft on a QB.
Uuuuuh, he’s a third string QB for the Packers. SOS. For a second rounder, why hasn’t he made the backup spot this year? Who needs another underacheiver.
i am definately not blaming the fans for anything…..the fans dont work in the front office……but i see alot fans get impatient and call something a failure when they dont even know what it looks like.
fact of the matter im not claiming that clemens, ratliff, ainge, or whomever is gonna be a star…and you cant claim that a first round qb is gonna be a star either…..The draft doesnt just go by players skill sets but the bigger schools hold more presidence.
and a first round QB doesnt assure you of success compared to those picked in later rounds, there have been more QB busts in the first rounds than anything, so thats not even an arguement. BUt the fact of the matter is NEITHER YOU OR ME KNOW what these guys are capable of.
If we bring in a qb in the first round it is still considered an “expirament”…and we have a coule of those already, so it doesnt make sense when theres a number of other postions to address on this team.
If your taking into consideration the success of this coming season, there is no qb you can draft that will be more of a benefactor than the guys already on the team.
Igs, Brohm is 3rd string because he’s a rookie. He was drafted in the 2nd round last year. You might just as well ask why Ratliff is 3rd string.
Brohm was beat out for 2nd string by another rookie Matt Flynn who was drafted in the 5th from LSU. If he can’t beat Flynn I’m not interested.
see thats what im talkin about!
how is brian brohm an under achiever??? he hasnt gotten the chance to prove anything…becuase of brett, rodgers has been waiting for a starting job for 3 years!!
what did you expect to happen???
JAGG, Flynn came out of the top college program in the country that year and was more NFL-ready as a rookie. Big deal. I think Flynn may have hit his ceiling already.
Wave,
Some good points, I’ll give you that. But what I’m saying that, yes, most (not all) of the teams that win have high pick QBs and make use of their late round picks:
Clemens is not impressive, has a bright futere.
Ainge, why did they even draft him or that WR, Washington? You should spend late round picks on FB/RB(easiest NFL transition) and special teamers – kickers and KR, not QBs.
I don’t have a problem with Ratliff as he was a FA, but he aint the future. There’s a reason why he wasn’t drafted. There’s a reason why Romo wasn’t drafted. That reason translate to why he can’t make the playoffs.
A first or second round QB brings stability.
brian Brohm is an underacheiver, as Greenguy said, because he’s a 2nd round pick that got beat out by a 2nd day guy. Ratliff was undrafted.
Maybe he has, but Flynn didn’t beat out Jamarcus Russel who was in no way NFL ready. Flynn plays hard and Brohm looked horrible in the preseason. The Packers feel he is #3 and that is who I will trust. To give up a 2nd rounder for a guy like that seems like bad business.
So, that being, if the Jets front office wants to prove that they have a plan and some sense of what’s going on on the feild, they would take Sanchez at 17 instead of drafting there 31st 1st RD CB and get that downfeild WR, maybe Louis Murphy??? With some time Sanchez will be great, I guaruntee it. Did you guys see the RoseBowl?
Players that must go, Drew Coleman, Bubba Franks, David Barrett, Eric Smith, Brad Smith, Laveraneus Coles, Brad Kassel, David Bowens, Ty Law and Hodges.
Can the Jets find a punter this off season please, is it really that hard to find someone who can kick it 45 yards consistantly. I’d rather the Jets not keep Schotty but as long as Ryan is the HC and Favre doesnt come back, give him one more year, then fire his a$$ if he sux against next year.
Brohm was coming off an injury though. Remember he was formerly considered as a possible number one overall pick. Does he still have that potential?
Was it Petrino’s system and Michael Bush tho? When the system changed he struggled.
why romo wasnt drafted, so romo is bad now? ibelieve the cowboys season was lost when he went out, im not a cowboy fan, but lets not get crazy and make statements like that. any team would love to have romo, so i guess there was a reason warner wasnt drafted either huh?? you dont know what ratliff is capable IS ans ISNT capable of, so stop talking like you do. when you knoock a player on his capablities, you pioint out red flags in their game. So what do YOU see in 23 year old ratliff who went one year to junior college and played well and was snagged by the Utes and did well there as well. what can you tell me that assures you he’s not worth the time??
i guess jamarcus russel is better than romo………..he was a NUMBER 1 PICK! c’mon man! this aint a popularuty contest, theres those who can make the adjustment and those who cant, its just a matter of seeing what happens when given the chance.
Forget Brohm. He started plenty in college and had experience coming in, but got beat out for the backup job by another rookie that got drafted later. His arm and accuracy were exposed his senior year which is why he dropped from a potential #1 pick to the second round. I’d rather take a chance on an unproven guy than give up a pick for a guy who has had a chance to do something in the NFL, namely win a backup job that was basically his, and failed to do so getting beat out by a player with no more (perhaps even less, I believe Brohm started more in college) experience.
Wave,
I don’t think you got my point about Romo. I didn’t say that he wasn’t good. I said that there was a reason that he wasn’t drafted and that that reason translates to the fact that he hasn’t won a playoff game.
Another guy, Derek Anderson was a late round draft who was cut by the Ravens and claimed by the Browns, who tried to make him a starter. He got exposed this season didn’t he? Now I’m not saying he ain’t a good QB, or that, put in the right situation, (think Trent Dilfer) he couldn’t win a SuperBowl. I’m just saying that it’s highly unlikely that he’d be a championship QB – not impossible, just unlikely.
Now if I’m rebuilding my franchise – and make o mistake about it, the Jets are rebuilding – I’m rebuilding around a stong HC, a good offensive and defensive system, stong lines, and a high round QB. Look at the past 42 champs and you’ll find 90% of them used the same philosophy.
We jus spent over 200 million on key veteran aquisitions last offseason, went after brett favre, signed tony richardson(whom we should re-sign) and finished one game out of the playoffs……….and we’re rebuilding? We are not the lions here. Of anything we have over the rams or any other teams with coaching vacancies is that we have a lot of pieces in place, now to see if someone can make it work…..minus the brett favre distraction
I watched Ratliff in the preseason and what I saw was a guy who could make most of the throws. I think there’s a lot to be learned about him and I’m not knocking him. Probably a very good backup QB when all is said and done. I wouldn’t bet the franchise on an undrafted player though. But that’s just me.
Firstly, we need to free up cap space. Cut every TE besides keller and bring in a blocking TE late in the draft.
Secondly, if were getting rex ryan as HC he will insist on building a team similar to the ravens now which means defense defense defense, so theyll def go with D the first couple of picks.
lgs,
Brady and Cassel were late round picks. There are 2 schools of thought on QB’s. We’ll call it A) Peyton Manning/ Ryan Leaf; and B) Bill Walsh/ Bill Parcells
A) Sometimes it’s easy to pick a QB, no-brainers like Manning, but more often than not QB’s selected early end up struggling. There is alot of pressure on those guys to perform right away. And if the team around them is bad it’s nearly impossible to be good. I know we have Flacco and Ryan this year, but that is an abberration. And remember, they both could go south next year. There’s still no gaurantee they will be the long term answer for their teams. The most important factor is coaching. Young QB’s need very good to great QB coach to succeed. There apparently are not alot of those around.
B) This group believes in selecting a QB in later rounds and developing them. The best current example is Belicheck. No one wanted Brady, and no one even heard of Cassell. But he developed these guys, coached them up and made them successful.
Montana was a mid round pick as well. Drew Brees came out of no where. Kurt Warner, etc.
So, I think the best way to select a QB is taking someone in the lower rounds and developing them, if you believe you have the coaching to do so. Otherwise, if you pick a QB early, you better hope it works out, otherwise you’ve just set your franchise back a good 5 years.
????????????
?????????????
No we dont wave, we aint got jack in place. What the late season collapse showed is that chemistry and leadership is at an all time low with the Jets.
Since the collapse, on this blog, I’ve been asking you guys, where are the leaders o this team. Where is the chemistry? WHere are the role players. Where are the character picks that helped to ake the Patriots a dynasty? Nobody seems to be able to answer me.
Yes they are rebuilding, because the structure of that team sucks. And there’s a lot of FA money there, but it aint working in conjuction, There’s a glass ceiling in the NFL for teams like that. (See Redskins, Cowboys, Bills, etc.)
????????????
?????????????
No we dont wave, we aint got nothing in place. What the late season collapse showed is that chemistry and leadership is at an all time low with the Jets.
Since the collapse, on this blog, I’ve been asking you guys, where are the leaders o this team. Where is the chemistry? WHere are the role players. Where are the character picks that helped to ake the Patriots a dynasty? Nobody seems to be able to answer me.
Yes they are rebuilding, because the structure of that team sucks. And there’s a lot of FA money there, but it aint working in conjuction, There’s a glass ceiling in the NFL for teams like that. (See Redskins, Cowboys, Bills, etc.)
Pete – remember what I said about Trent Dilfer? i’m not saying that anything is absolute.
Pete, a couple of things:
1. You have to say that Brady was an abberation if Flacco and Ryan are right? Most QBs that are selected in round 6 don’t do so well. Right?
2. The franchise has been doing that for 40 years. Where has it gotten them?
lgs,
i understand where you are trying to say, and i respect your opinion, which you are entitled to, which is why we blog. but you cant knock something untill you try it. and did the patriots build around brady…or matt cassel for that fact? the ravens didnt build around flacco because the team wanted troy smith to start(sounds like rebuilding to me)…so not everything has to be scripted with a stud first round qb that comes out of college and leads his team to a chip to establish his legacy. for the most part those stories dont fair out too well.
if anything the only franchises that actually built around a high round qb to have somehting good come out of it were the colts, giants, steelers, and falcons( time will tell)……..but i can go down the loooooong list of first round qb’s that didnt aomunt to anything and worst of all couldnt even stay in the league for more than a couple years.
qbs dont win chamionships…..well built teams do, just as long as everybody does their job. Some qb’s are required of more than others, so its just a matter of making things work and filling out roles.
flacco isnt asked to go out and throw for 200 to 300 yards, which is not his game…he manages the ball well and throws for his 100 something yards and 1 to 2 td’s and doesnt make crucial mistakes. peyton manning on the other hand may be expected to do a little more since he doesnt have the defense that baltimore has. so if a team is clicking on all cylinders they will win, period, not becuase they have a first round qb.
lgs, can you really “guarantee” Sanchez will be great? He may be, but the truth is he could turn out to be a bust. This is not meant to be a putdown, but some very knowledgable and experienced NFL QB evaluators have been wrong. Why are you so sure of your own talent evaluation?
I am a little leery of offensive players coming out of USC lately, none have seem to panned out, and Bush is always hurt so you cannot count him in.
last years collapse?? thats why were rebuilding and we have no pieces????
WE HAD 7 PRO BOWLERS!!!…MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, THERE IS TALENT HERE!!
and any questions raised were not from if these guys are capable because they obviously are, its the playcalling and motivation coming from up top, which was not here! and we had the whole favre distraction, all this after ONE YEAR and we’re rebuilding???
i can understand a fan’s frustration but c’mon man what do you want?? your not a patient guy are you. your asking for leaders ??? there are leaders on this team that voice their opinion in the best of their team but just get bashed becuase they actually have the nerve to go against favre! there are leaders in that locker room but there was no leadership coming from the higher ranks.
At the end of the day the players are paid to play, what you want them to get up on a pulpet and give a sermon after each game and locker room interview? the guys in that locker room know who they respect as a leader and show that, we’re no inthe room with them so who are we to say? its more than that, i think thats why our coach got fired last time i checked
Okay I’m tired of arguing about this.
You guys all make good points. i respect that. I would ask 3 questions here:
1. Go through the list of Superbowl champs and see how many were run by 1st and 2nd rounders, no matter what other talent was on the team.
2. As I read your comments, I can’t help but wonder, what in the Jets history of low draft QBs and old man FAs tells you that this is the formula for succes? i mean, we saw the 2000 Ravens do it and like 2 other teams and never the Jets. What? Why? We are not, and will never be the Patriots, I’m sorry.
3. Why can’t anyone on this blog answer my questions?: Where are the leaders o this team. Where is the chemistry? WHere are the role players. Where are the character picks that helped to ake the Patriots a dynasty? Nobody seems to be able to answer me.
Pete,
I know talent. Sanchez will be great. He may not be a Jet but I watch him play. The only knowck I’ve ever seen on him was that he couldn’t read defenses. He showed in the Rose Bowl that he could do that and make all the throws. Why not take him? Are we afraid to be winners or something?
lgs, i hope you have acrystal ball in front of you tellin us how sanchez is gonna be great and how ratliff is a 2nd stringer at best and how building around a 1st round qb is starting the road to a SB.
ridin,
I agree the team has leaders, but we were let down by our #1 leader, the HC. If we get a real leader in that job, I will bet we will see our team leaders emerge more vocally, and on the field.
who the hell cares about pro bowlers. i’ve been a Jets fan for most of my 29 years. i want to win. to hell with the pro-bowl.
wave,
Any questions you have for me about leadership and motivaters – see the Ravens, patriots, Giants, Steelers, the teams that win. I don’t have to qualify that. his is not about last year with Favre. It’s about a legacy of ineptitude in the NFL. 40 dawn years. Are you kidding me?
More than the coaches and the QB and the Players, the formula has to change. i’m tired of it.
I don’t have a chrystal ball Wave, i have history. that’s all I need playa. You can ignore it. The Jets been ignoring it the last 40 years that’s why they cant make the playoffs with 7 pro bowlers…
lgs, in the spirit of “answering questions”, you did not give any real answer to the question of why you feel you are able to evaluate college QB’s. Basically you said, “I know talent”. Please give some detail.
If you look at my previous post I stated that leadership starts at the top, and my contention is if you have poor leadership from the head coach, it will seriously diminish the leadership abilities of the players. That is my explaination for what happened to the Jets this year.
And to answer your superbowl QB question, there are many SB QB’s who were early picks, and many who were lower picks. Brady and Montana account for 7 SB victories alone. This goes back to my earlier post showing it can be done both ways.
tim Couch
Akili Smith
Cade McNown
Cryan Ryan
Jim Drunkenmiller
Pat Ramsey
kyle boller
heath shculer
jim drunkenmiller
ryan leaf
rick mirer
joey harrington
michael vick(lol, i kid , i kid)
matt leinart
brady quinn…(time will tell)
jamarcus russel…(^^^^^^^)
….should i go on???
and of all peolple eo use as an example you use derek anderson???…who cares about that guy?
Wave:
Look at the starting QB’s in the NFL, and for that matter the starters at every position in the NFL.
You will (as logic might dictate) find a large number of 1st and 2nd-round picks, and very few 2nd day picks as a percentage of the whole starting.
The fact that there are busts in the 1st round, and all-time greats every few decades who get drafted in the 6th round (Brady) doesn’t mean anything. Statistically, its entirely irrelevant. Your chances in the latter rounds are far, far lower of getting the right guy, a franchise QB.
pardon the typos*
You poor guys. You’re so used to losing that you don’t even expect your franchise to step up its game.
maybe it’s because I’m a Giants fan too that I expect so much more from my team.
Pete i answered you question. Like i said, i’m good at evaluating talent on the feild. i’ve been watching football all my life. That’s it.
Just off the top of my head:
Brees (almost 1st pick of 2nd round)
Rodgers
Cutler
Rivers
P. Manning
E. Manning
Rothlisberger
McNabb
Pennington
Favre (6th pick of 2nd round)
Mark Campell
Tavaris Jackson
Flacco
Matt Ryan
Trent Edwards
Jamarcus Russell
Carson Palmer
Kerry Collins
What is clear is that it is FAAAAAAAAR more likely that the guy who ends up starting for your team was a 1st or 2nd round pick. This is competing against FIVE OTHER ROUNDS! The numbers are off the charts and irrefutable, notwithstanding the occasion abberation like Brady and Cassel.
And Tony Romo is a great QB, regardless of whether he’s won a playoff game in his young career.
Well lgs, if you don’t answer other people’s questions, why would you expect them to answer yours? Are you somehow better than the rest of us?
DSmizzle,
i understand what you are trying to convey, but we can ALL agree that the NFL draft is a crap shoot, and to survive in this league who have to learn to adjust and work to adjust and excell on whatever got you to the league and not RELY on what got you there in the first place.
we can all agree to disagree, but as far as teams mainly consisting os 1st to 2nd rounders is false……not necessarily, look at leon wasington for god sake, better yet ray lewis was slate late pick, or how about the defensive player of the year james harrison who wasnt even drafted!? and not to mention cut by 4 teams!!!!
so we can go back and forth about this ALL DAY and i can bring up names like gholston and dwayne robertson to make a point becuase im pretty sure your familiar with those guys. but survival in the NFL is about consistent adjustment and improvements and not relying on what got you there. college is NOT the NFL, thats why any exec. would laugh at the idea of a brad smith or tim tebow actually playing the QB postion in the NFL, its not the same!
lgs,
ok ok………….sanchez is the second coming of dan marino, happy now?
Eli Manning
Peyton manning
Ben Rothlisburger
Trent Dilfer
John Elway
Brett the Jet
Troy Aikman
Doug Williams
Phil Simms
Should I keep going Wave?
Mizzle, great points.
Pete, like I said, now for the 3rd time, I feel like I make good football judgements. I se in Sanchez great leadership, he can make NFL throws, he’s got a quick release and he proved at the Rose Bowl that he can read good defenses. It’ll take him some time but he’ll be successful in the NFL. That;s just my call. Don’t know what else to say to you playa.
Bent, we should probably just replay the “seanmac-sd99″ debates on drafting QBs, again. I like Sanchez, but I doubt that he’ll be around at 17 and he doesn’t fit my personal profile for NFL success (I’d like a little more height, arm strength and/or mobility…he looks like he could be a solid starter, but a star?). But, the greater point is SHOULD the Jets draft a 1st round QB (who the franchise would expect to start, even in 2009)? I say, no way! First, the Jets have a 2006 2nd rounder (KC) and a promising prospect (Ratliff) already on the roster. I cannot with certainty say that Sanchez will definitely be better than either of them. And, both have contracts (or in the case of Ratliff can be resigned) at a rate far lower than the no. 17 pick, esp. a QB, would command. Second, I’m a believer that at 17 the Jets should draft “value” and, the way this draft looks, the Jets could have a top RB, WR or LB (and maybe even a decent CB or S) fall in their laps. Third, if the Jets were considering drafting a QB, I’d go with Josh Freeman, who is a freak…the NFL just has never seen a guy with his skill set and height. But, taking Freeman will probably mean drafting him at 17 because he will blow away the scouts at the Combine and IMO he’s not ready to start. So, the Jets would have to sign a vet that could start and teach…not likely considering the Jets are in more of a “win now” mode.
Wave you’re dillusional. Mizzle did the math for you and you’re still in denial. You poor guy, look what the Jets did to you man.
All i’m saying is that I Sanchez as a franchise QB. Not that he’s the second coming of anybody. His game kind of reminds me of Young. (No I’m not saying he’s the second coming of Steve Young)
Ray Lewis? I am not remembering but I’d bet a testy that he was a 1st-rounder!
I like Freeman for a 3 or a 4. if the jets spend another dag on pick on a CB Ima vomit for a year.
smizzle,
on that list, only 4 have won a sb, ……………………..the others on the list are either not first rounders,
not worth a damn,
and some may have bright futures
clemens was a second rounder,
ratliff hasnt dissapointed at any level when given a chance……just like you said….romo is great, and he wasnt even drafted, neither was warner, and he’s a sb winner and a future HOF’er. so all im saying is give these guys a chance, you have NO GOOD REASON not to (well ratliff at least), unless you wanna win a popularity contest. damn the popularity and pretty boy stories, i just want some real football players that wanna win, just like everybody else, but along the way people get impatient and caught up in hype and loose track of the plan at hand.
we choose and play whomever is gonna work the hardest and and thrive off elevating their game to play and succed in the NFL, thats all!
sorry on the ray lewis, he definately was a late first rounder i was thinking of bart scott…whom himself wasnt even drafted
I’m going to go ahead and guess that the vast majority of Pro Bowlers were 1st or 2nd round picks. This is especially so if you include the 3rd rounders as “early” draft picks!
lgs,
your so desperate lookin for first round qbs who actually won it, your bringing up phill simms??? troy aikman?????? elway????? and a few other names??? these guys are retired!!!…i was just naming a few names of the recent years……and those are guys that are either stil in their 20’s and are still FA’s!!!!..
just throw the white flag my friend because you donw want me to go down the list of 1st round qbs that didnt amount to anything if you wanna go all the way back to phill simms days, lolololol!
do you know how many qb were drafted in the nfl since the early 80’s???….and then those are the only names as far as 1st rd quarterbacks who have actually accomplished something????
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
So we can do this by a number of categories:
1. Superbowl winners
2. Superbowl players
3. pro-bowlers
4. making the playoffs
5. touchdown leaders
6. overall wins
7. etc, etc.
Just about every category is dominated by 1st day Qb’s, particularly 1 rounders. it’s the formula for success. The numbers are indisputable.
Wave, maybe we should name 3 out of the 4 QBs that are still playing.
Too easy.
And dag, imagine if we went through the list of 4-6 round QBs that amounted to nothing. If you’re comparing 1st round failures, compare it those.
Maybe you need to throw in the white flag. :-)
And btw, the formula for success was the same in the Phil Simms days as it was today.
Smizzle,
thats you going off a hunch and your opinion, which i have no problem with, but stars come from everywhere, not necessarily the first round of a draft. the draft is merely based on school performance, but may not be relevant to the NFL. what may be relevant is your size and athletic traits, thats why tebow isnt primarily a NFL pocket quarterback, like brad smith…gholston cant man handle NFL lineman like he did in school……for some, thier skill and asstets may have not translated well in college play but was way more effective in the NFL, so its the roll of the dice and good evaluation.
so we can sit here and pin point whom our favorite players are and who we personally like, but its a matter if they can make the adjustments and translate their skills to the everyday stresses of the NFL.
I just want to be clear that I am not for or against one way of getting a QB. Sometimes it is obvious that a guy will be great (Peyton Manning, Elway), but most of the time it’s not obvious. I trust that our FO will have a good handle on the players in the draft, and if they think Sanchez is worth it, they will go get him, or any other player for that matter. I love how aggressive Tannenbaum has been on draft day. I have felt we passed on players, but I feel confident that Tanny knows the direction of the team better than me, and I feel confident that the talent evaluators on the Jets know much more than I do. The draft is very exciting to watch. Can’t waite.
lgs you lost,
i dont need to piggy back anyone elses examples or thoughts to explain my logic. fact of the matter, first round qb’s assure you nothing, they even did articles on this a couple years back on espn, so your expertese have amounted to nothing so far besides your love affair for sanchez, and you cant assure me that the number of 1st round qb’s to become a success out wieghs the latter(bringing up the past 40 years), so there for, thats food for thought, now you do the dishes.
lgs, I have to disagree. The NFL is much different today. Mainly because of the money. A team cannot afford to be wrong with a top pick, especially if it’s a QB. The money that they sink into a high QB pick, will cause a team to stick with him for at least 3-4 years, and if in the end it doesn’t work out, the franchise suffers a serious setback. Also because of the money, teams are forced to play a high pick QB right away. Back in Simms day, that wasn’t the case.
i cant wait for the draft either, im kinda dissapointed that spikes is going back to school, would have been a great replacement for barton. and they just said harvick is coming out, not too excieted about him anyway
Pete,
Tanny’s a decent day 1 guy. i think he could’ve done better than Gholston and Keller this year. I don’t think he’s so great on day 2 and in the rookie FA market. He has had his bright spots but I’m really far from the point where I can trust that the franchise is in good hands with him.
When I was debating draft strategy last year, I noticed that the vast majority of successful 1st round QBs were taken in the top half of the first round. As for second half of the first round or second or third round QBs, there’s almost as many good second day or UDFA QBs. My conclusion was that either a team drafts a top QB prospect in the top half of the draft (and trade up if the team wants) or forget about QB until the second day. The reason for this is that there is so much value in other positions that the opportunity cost of taking a flyer on a QB that lasts until the 20th pick is that a team might gloss over a great prospect at the non-glamour (and cheaper to sign) positions, like OG, OC, TE, ILB or S. So, IMO, the Jets probably shouldn’t draft a QB at 17 because it’s likely that the QB won’t end up being a good pro.
Wave. We all lose. Every year. And the same old strategy is why. But like I said. Check any category and see what round the majority of the QBs are from:
1. Superbowl winners
2. Superbowl players
3. pro-bowlers
4. making the playoffs
5. touchdown leaders
6. overall wins
7. etc, etc.
Or like I said, 3 out of the 4 QBs that are in the conference championship as we speak.
You lose.
The NFL aint that diff. Players make more money, get faster, bigger, strategy stays the same.
Wave, you’re an idiot.
You talk about the busts that come from round 1. But you refuse to aknowledge the busts that come from rounds 3,4,5,6,7. You got the blinders on man.
lgs, you’re just too hard on Tanny’s drafting prowess. First, it’s really not fair to judge the 2008 draft, yet. VG looks like a weak pick, but Keller looked like the next great AFC TE until he made it into Mangini’s doghouse. Lowery, Ainge, Henry and Garner were the 2nd day guys and Lowery could be a NFL starter at CB. If he is, that’s amazing value for the 4th round. It’s just too early to judge the others. Second, the 2007 draft was great. Revis is a Pro Bowler, Harris, if he can stay healthy, joins a long line of great Jets ILBs, and Stuckey was (and I think will be) a productive slot WR. The only misstep was Jacob Bender, a 6th rounder. Third, the 2006 draft has, so far, yielded 2 Pro Bowlers and a Pro Bowl alternate. Plus, E. Smith, B. Smith and D. Coleman have all had their moments. Schlegel and E. Smith weren’t great 3rd round picks given the guys available, but it’s hard to say that the ‘06 draft was disappointing.
Lgs,
At first I figured you to just be strongly opinionated and stuck in your ways, untill you come off to sound dumb and clueless. First of all you wanna bring up “making playoffs” and staistical accomplishments(irrelivant) after I smashed on your theory of having to build around a 1st rd. Qb to WIN A SUPERBOWL, and now you gonna talk about 4th, 5th, and 6th round busts??…there’s no such thing idiot, that’s why they are in the late rounds or not picked at all. Late round picks are merely insurance needs on a team, as that any body with football sense would tell,they are not future team investments and where you are looking for the future “leader” of your team. But a lot emerge as so once given the chance. And my point STILL remains that of these insurance and late round picks and non drafted signees, stars have and will contune to emerge once given that chance! What don’t you understand.
You wanna talk about”super bowl players??”…”stat leaders??”….”Making the playoffs??”….you trying to say those categories are merely compiled with first round picks?? That’s your point now?? Your dumber than I thought
Wave, YOU look at the late round picks as insurance picks. Championshp teams look at them as role players that are just as important as the team stars.
The losers are the only guys talking about insurance picks. BTW. the Jets don’t have enough of either.
Sack,
I’m not saying Tanny doesn’t have his high points. I’m very high on Harris, Revis, and Lowery. Still think there are places where he could have done better, better pickss, less wasted picks.
Ben – you are absolutely right that they need to clear cap space, but the effect of releasing all tight ends except Keller would be give rise to a minimal cap saving. Guys they will look at releasing or restructuring and the savings they would generate include Barrett (3.7m) and Bowens (2.6m). Then they may look to restructure Moore (5.5m) and Ellis (4.6m) amongst others. Obviously Favre’s 13m coming off the books and Coles (if traded to a team that will accept the guaranteed final year in his contract) 5m will help too.
Igs/Wave etc – The key point for me in this debate, which could do without the name-calling by the way, is that if a late round pick is a complete failure there is no cap effect whereas if it happens with a top five pick, you are handcuffed financially for a couple of years. Sure, the chances of success are lower (obviously), but history has shown that they are not nil. It just hasn’t worked out for the Jets yet.
I feel similar about Sanchez as a draft prospect as I did about Clemens. He will probably be decent, but I am not exactly blown away by him.