TJB20: Yay, Another Jay Cutler Post!
As if this dead horse didn’t need even more of a beating, we’re here to check the temperature of many on the final price that it took to get Jay Cutler, was it worth it? Should the Jets have played along?
Need a second to review the rules and the panelists, check out the introductions.
3) Given what the cost was for Jay Cutler (two first rounders and a third along with Kyle Orton in return for Jay Cutler and a fifth rounder) do you make a similar trade if you are the Jets?
Sean McCormick from Football Outsiders: Oh, absolutely. Look at it this way- there is a very good chance that the Jets first-round pick this year or next year will be devoted to a quarterback. Maybe it’s Josh Freeman. Maybe it’s Tim Tebow. Whoever it is, I have serious doubts that they will prove to be a better player than Jay Cutler. So you’re really talking about a first round pick and a third round pick, with a throw-in like Kellen Clemens to go along with it. I’m not someone who worships at the altar of the quarterback- I think there are some special players and then a lot of guys who have certain skill sets who can function in proper systems (Matt Cassel, for instance)-but Cutler falls into the former category, and for a special player, I don’t think that’s too much to pay at all. Of course, it helps that I don’t think much of this year’s draft class- it’s the weakest draft class I’ve seen since 2005, and there’s no one who I’m dying to burn the 17th pick in the draft on.
Bob Glauber from Newsday: No way. That is way too much for a guy whose leadership skills and maturity are very much in question after what went down with Denver. Was it all his fault? No. But you put that guy in the Jets’ locker room, and he’ll get swallowed up by the big-time personalities that are now emerging under Rex Ryan’s more open regime. Sorry, I’ll pass.
Simon from SimonOnSports: Absolutely 100% positively not. I’m not the biggest Kellen Clemens fan in the world and I have absolutely zero idea if he will be a successful NFL quarterback, but I’d rather have him and the draft picks than Cutler. Why? If Cutler was on the roster and the Jets gave up two first rounders and a third rounder, than what receivers would Cutler be throwing to? Cutler was so successful last year because him and Brandon Marshall had the deep ball working. The Jets don’t have that deep threat. And if they gave up a boatload of picks they would have no chance to get that guy.
Bill Barnwell from Football Outsiders: Absolutely not. My feelings on Kellen Clemens are well-known, but I think the difference in talent between Clemens and Cutler doesn’t amount to two first-round picks of value. I don’t know how many players in the league I’d give up two first-round picks for, but Cutler’s not on the list, and I actually really like Jay Cutler. (No, Keyshawn Johnson wouldn’t have been on the list, either.)
Erik Manassy (@e_man) Crazy Season Ticket Holder: Absolutely NOT! I thought that two first rounders were a lot, but to give up the 1st this year, the 1st 2010, Kellen Clemens and a third is a lot for a kid who is proven and young BUT also known as a problem child. The kid is immature, needs a lot of growing up to do and I hear that once a player goes down as having a reputation as “ME and only me”, it rubs the team the wrong way… Players don’t want to be in the trenches with someone like that. Mel Kiper warned us about this problem during the year he was drafted. He NAILED it and the Bears organization has their work cut out for them. Give me leadership and a weak arm (Chad, whom we should have never waived) over a gun and attitude any day (Cutler)!
Michael Salfino from SNY: Well, there’s no similar trade because there’s no similar player. Cutler has proven to be a QB with every measurable skill and thus the potential at least for greatness. He’s certainly started better than many QBs who’ve turned out to be great. The Jets should have offered two first round picks and, say, Clemens for Cutler, yes. The problem with the Jets QBs now is that they haven’t proved anything in the heat of real, regular-season NFL battle and I don’t trust what scouts and even coaches say in observing the other stuff because no one really knows what makes a great NFL QB.
Matt Loede from NFLGridironGab.com & JetsGab.com: No. The Jets are on the verge of being a very good team, but with a new coach and a new system coming in, Rex Ryan deserves to get some of his own players, and those draft picks being in someone else’s pocket would have hurt. Cutler is going to have the world on his shoulders in Chicago, and as someone pointed out on NFL Radio, he’s going to at the end of the day be the next Jeff George.
Josh Alper from NBCNewYork.com: No.
Max from JetNation.com: Not at this point. Last year, the Jets spent a ton of money of the offensive line with the focus being able to run the ball. This year they have made huge improvements to the defense. Their defensive identity is going to be very aggressive and on offense they will play smart, run often and try not to turn the ball over. Cutler is an amazing talent but he is young and immature. The Jets did the huge ego \ strong armed QB thing last year, so they did the right thing passing on Cutler. Let’s see what the kids are all about.
Jason Fitzgerald from NY Jets Cap: That is a trade I would make in a heartbeat if I had the chance. Finding a franchise QB in the NFL is very hard and I believe Cutler really fit?s the bill of a franchise QB. People look at his win-loss record as an indictment against him, but he has been surrounded by terrible talent especially on defense. Jets fans are quick to point out how impressive it was for Kellen Clemens to go 3-5 on a bad team, but somehow have a double standard when Cutler is under 0.500 on an equally bad football team. Cutler has physical tools that most Qbs do not possess and whatever his immaturity issues may be they have not affected him on the field the way Jeff George or Ryan Leaf broke down. You simply do not find franchise Quarterbacks in the draft when you pick in the second half of the first round. That is where you find the Rex Grossmans of the world. The reality of the situation is that the Jet are currently built to be a long lasting 8-8 type team. They have good enough pieces on defense and a good enough offensive line to be no worse than 7-9 and no better than 9-7 these next two or three years. That puts you in no mans land when it comes to the draft. That?s where you find good interior linemen, a spot already filled on the team, linebackers, who the Jets are already committed to, an occasional safety or tight end , two positions filled for the long haul, and an occasional pass rushing defensive end, which really isn?t the style of player required by the 34 defense. So that leaves the Jets reaching and grasping for Wrs and Qbs at spots where the odd of finding a great one aren?t good.
The price the Bear paid is basically that of the 3rd or 4th overall pick in the draft depending on how much you value Kyle Orton. If the Jets were selecting 3rd or 4th overall nobody would have an issue with them selecting a QB. The realistic price if you make the trade is Jay Cutler simply for a mid-late first in 2010 and a 3rd round pick, which usually turns out to be no better than Eric Smith, seems quite inexpensive. There are no recent Super Bowl champions that have no financial investment in the QB position. You have to go back all the way to the 2000 Ravens to find a team with no stake in a QB, which is what the Jets have when it comes to Kellen Clemens, Brett Ratliff, and Eric Ainge. Offense wins in today?s NFL and now the Jets really are going to have to luck into a QB.
Seth Edelstein, Jet Fan Extraordinaire: I dont make THAT deal no, b/c denver was in a weak position…they had to trade him. SO the fact that they got 2 first rounders and a B-/C+ QB was a great deal. They can now draft a QB and develop him if they want. BUT the bears did well too….they got a B+ could be an A QB for the next 6-8 years if they want…for #18 this year and likely a similar or lower pick next year.
Corey Griffin from TheJetsBlog.com: Absolutely not. It’s entirely too much to give up. Is Cutler a potential franchise quarterback? No question about it. Does he have a whiny attitude and a penchant for relying too much on his physical gifts and not heady play? Clearly. The real problem, though, is that the “Herschel Walker package” ruins the acquiring team far more often than it helps them. Yes, one player, particularly at quarterback, can tremendously help a team, but at the risk of subtracting at least two, potentially three impact young players from a roster. Not to mention, in place of Kyle Orton was rumored to be defensive cornerstones Darrelle Revis or David Harris? Not a chance.
Angel from TheJetsBlog.com: No! Not a chance! The common saying was, “Franchise QBs aren’t made available at the age of 25.” Well, if Cutler was made available, he’s clearly not a franchise QB. He was thrown directly into the fire and given his opportunities to start from early on. And it was never taken away from him, like it was from Clemens.
Bent from TheJetsBlog.com: I don’t, but then I am extremely risk-averse and saw this as a highly risky proposition. I think the price may have been higher in-conference anyway. Besides, we don’t have an equivalent QB to replace Orton in the deal – all our guys are too good!
If you’re not sick of this topic, leave your thoughts in the comments.
Filed under: Audible
I’m of the same opinion as Simon on this one. What good would getting Cutler have done if you don’t have the weapons for him to throw it to? I just don’t think it would have been a good fit, and particularly not at that price.
I am actually pretty tired of reading about this topic, but I will say that I thought Jason from NYJets Cap take on the deal offered a pretty interesting perspective.
If Orton is valued as a late 2nd rounder to early 3rd rounder then the net value going to Denver equates to about 2,100 total points or somewhere between the 3rd and 4th overall pick in the draft.
My initial reaction to this deal was that the Bears got swindled, but if the Bears really believe that they are getting a franchise QB for the next decade then that is not that hefty a price to pay. This is especially true considering Cutler is less of an unknown with an NFL track record than any QB college prospect being drafted.
I’m very happy the Jets didn’t make this trade. While I would take Cutler, the price is too high. One of the writers above said it: The Jets are on the verge of being a very good team. We need to keep adding to the overall talent, especially in the trenches. Hopefully one of our own guys proves to be an adequate QB, and if not, then we draft one next year, and/or pick someone up in free agency. I’m perfectly content letting Rex build this team the way he wants to.
Bassett, this trade was not available to us. Your question is fallacious.
First, we did not have Orton on our roster, a QB that the moron of a Denver coach apparently valued. Secondly, the Jets were not in the Bear’s conference. So if the trade backfired it would haunt the Donkeys for years to come in a way that a trade to a team in another conference would not. Finally, if it is to be believed, the Donkeys did not take Tanny’s phone call and give him a shot. It is hard to make a trade without a willing partner.
Suppositions are meaningless when situations are not only not analogous, they are completely different.
One last thing. None of us are NFL GMs or OCs or HC. We lack access to information these folks have. I saw Cutler as a chucker who excelled when his team was behind and he could throw at will. Absent a strong running game and D, it is hard to say how he would have performed in the type of situation envisioned by Rex. I would hope Rex had sufficient practice tape to figure out what he had and made the right choice.
Two number ones alone would have been pricey. Adding a number 3 makes it very pricey. The Bears throwing in Orton was meaningless — Cutler replaced him. In our case, the player would likely have had to be someone of value to our team which, IMHO, would have made the trade impossible.
harlan
Only care about Cutler at this point if we play him, otherwise not interested.
Hell no!…..that’s all we need to say. He’s not that good.
No. Glad our boys didn’t pull the trigger on this one.
Jets fans are so stuck in this “…haven’t sniffed since ‘69… we’ve got to do this NOW…” mentality that many of us are willing to trade development for chance. FYI, that’s what the Favre trade last year was all about. We have age and depth needs to address on both lines, and losing these picks in this what-if scenario would have screwed that up; ironically also making it the next big Headache, Same-Old-Jets topic the next time around. Don’t believe me/stuck in the now and disregarding this??? We were having the SAME CONVERSATION last YEAR at this TIME, then pulled the trigger for Favre.
If Cutler would have come here, comes the time when the depth issues we’re concerned with now would soon become gaping HOLES – some through which opposing DLinemen would come crashing through to plant his face harshly into the Jersey soil, and we wouldn’t be able to do squat about it because we traded away the equivalent of 3 starter slots to witness the reincarnation of Adrian Clarke pass-blocking! Not to mention seeing “push-me-back” Pouha reruns again after wasting away Kris Jenkins for not having replaced/brought in new blood onto the DL.
Use the picks to continue building the team. REX wants an attacking defense, strong lines, elite running game, and a QB that can manage the game. He wants the Jets to look like the 2000 Ravens. Better actually, as our offense is better than that year’s Ravens offense. It has been a successful plan for him and he knows it well.
Let’s make some comparisons between what REX has had success with to what the JETS have now, and close by looking at what can be done with likely prospects through the draft. I’ll be using the Ravens SB team as the benchmark:
The Ravens won with Dilfer behind center – Clemens is better than Dilfer. The JETS 2009 OL promises to be better than the RAVENS SB OL. Receivers – about even. RB’s – edge to the 09 JETS, not because of TJ, but because of LEON and the unsung workhorse, T-Richardson. IMO, the 2009 Jets offense – even without a stretch receiver – is better than the Ravens SB offense. Still need depth on the line, though (nightmares of Clarke, again…)
Ravens SB defense was one of the best ever, and the 2009 JETS Defense looks to be pretty darn tough to go against as REX follows the foundation building to get our guys to the dominant level. Comparing them by unit, I’d say the Ravens 2000 DL is much better (Siragusa & Sam Adams), the LB corps may come out about even (Ravens’ Boulware, Sharper, Lewis vs JETS’ Pace, Harris, Scott & Thomas) and I actually give the JETS secondary an edge over the Ravens 2000 unit (more CB’s; Kerry Rhodes is our Rod Woodson only healthier; and the SB team didn’t have a Lights-Out Corner like Darrelle). The Ravens great strength that year flowed from their dominating DL, thence to their 1st-Rate LBer’s, ultimately allowing their secondary to play aggressive (17 picks that year). Logic therefore dictates that REX will develop the JETS defense the same way (Green, Douglas signings – geared to keeping KJ fresh).
WHAT NEXT?>>>
Let T-REX do their thing, especially REX.
Draft D H-B at 17, or in the low twenties if they can do it (don’t think so… if he’s there, don’t get fancy thinking you can make a move and get him at 20 or 21 – there’s always a risk of that backfiring), but draft him. His height (6′2″) and speed (4.3/40) will do more for the Jets offense – and for Clemens – than any QB we get.
As for Hayward-Bey’s supposed negatives: Routes are raw? He’ll learn; that’s what they get the bucks for, what the coaches are for. Developmental pick, my A%$ – Can you guys honestly think that Rex Ryan is going to let anyone (heads up, Vernon – this applies to you, too…) get away with giving less than their 100% effort? Hayward-Bey will be starting by game three. He’ll be platooning with Clowney & Brad Smith, stretching the field to get those tongues wagging on opposing DB’s, then Clemens will be launching missiles 40yards downfield for this kid to make like Bob Hayes and take it downtown.
And you’re gonna consequently see Leon facing 6 or 7 guys in the box, not eight – and that gives us our 6 guys blocking (the OL plus TRich)… and you’re gonna tell me you don’t like the odds of seeing Leon Washington one-on-one against a DL or LB? Repeat after me; can we say, “… take it to the HOUSE!!!”. This is what having a stretch receiver can do for this offense.
Leon is going to have a monster year, so big that next year Tanny will wish he’d have signed him prior to this season start. Welcome to the world of the Franchise tag, Leon… won’t be so bad, brother; you’ll get the average of the top five RB’s in the league, which will put you in the 5-6mil per year range.
yes. this whole Cutler thing is a dead horse… which is why I hope ya’ll don’t mind my including more stuff in this post then was requested “-).
HEY! After all… if a fan can’t rant, then where’s the fun in being a fan????
T I M
Is ‘ fallacious’ a sexual terminology
I agree – cost would have been to high.
Chicago coughed up a lot, Denver were in a pickle because they had a disgruntled quarterback they HAD to trade and Chicago gave them more than they probably imagined.
I think Jason’s point about judging Cutler and Clemens differently on their records is a fair one. I just remember what a difference Pennington made years ago when they finally gave him a shot. The guy just wins. What was that old Parcell’s line, “you are what your record says you are”. I think both Cutler and Clemens need to be judged that way.
fallacious (adj):
• containing or based on a fallacy; “fallacious reasoning”; “an unsound argument”
• deceitful: intended to deceive; “deceitful advertising”; “fallacious testimony”; “smooth, shining, and deceitful as thin ice”
• based on an incorrect or misleading notion or information; “fallacious hope”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Why do we always keep mentioning Clemens? Anyone ever heard of Ratliff?
Am I the only one that believes that this guy has a shot?
Sorry .. I would have made this trade in a second .. a franchise QB with 2 ot the 3 picks in a draft everyone says is weak this year .. we would never get a Cutler in the draft or the FA market ..
I wouldn’t.
First off, Cutler has yet to prove he’s a good quarterback. With that, what gives him a better shot at being good than Ratliff or Clemens? Again, he’s proved NOTHING.
Cutler won’t turn around a franchise, b/c he’s a paper quarterback. Look at his choke job down the stretch, specifically the Buffalo game were he blew two late drives inside the 15.
I’m dead set on Ratliff in 09!
While I do like several comments on this board, most are well thought out and intelligently presented but I find the idea about pro and con Cutler trades a bit like mental masturbation, it’s done and that’s that. You no longer have to be concerned about Cutler, you have to be concerned about a man named Brady along with all the free agents they have amassed plus the 6 draft picks they have on day 1. Rest assured a pair of seconds will become somebody’s number 1 next year because plain and simple we just don’t need that many players to reach nirvana, we already have them. Good luck, with your current crop of QB’s you’ll need it!
Hi Harlan-
The question was asked in the wake of the Cutler fallout, before it was clear he couldn’t have been ours, rather than change it to suit the purpose, I let it stand. Thanks for making the point.
and hopefully THAT’S the last time we talk about Jay Cutler for quite a while!!! :)
“pennington has a noodle arm” – great stuff. the guy averages 10 wins a year in games that he starts, but thats how some jets fans on this board and the media remember things.
“cutler has a bad attitude” etc.
although not one person on this board has ever met the guy, or for that matter knows anyone in the cutler family, STILL, the only knock on the guy is that he has a bad attitude. i guess its easy for people to read stuff and make judgements.
seriously, we’re judjing a guys character on how he goes about earning a living. it may not be hypocritcal of poeple on this board becasue i dont know anyone here, but for media people in local new york papers to write this crap is just down right typical. these guys are the sports paparazzi and they are judging a 25 year old kid who refuses to have it stuck to him by a rich owner. to top it off, 45% of the jetsblog.com and its readers bought it.
nice job!
although, the jets never really had chance at cutler this time around, we did three years ago and its going to go down as the same time of chnace we had in 1983 to grab marino.
aside from my feelings above, the price was little steep, but i would still get it done. i have a strong feeling, mike tannabuam would have felt the same way.
No, that is way to much to get a quarterback like Cutler onto a run heavy offense with limited aerial weapons.
The happiest moment of the off season for me so far , isn’t a move the Jets made, but a move that they didn’t. I can be proud to be a Jets fan this season, no matter what their record is, which is something I couldn’t say had they brought Cutler into the mix. I’m just happy to root for a team that isn’t led by an arrogant QB without integrity or class. I’d of had a hard time truly rooting for that scumbag.
NOT AT ALL…..we did the RIGHT thing.