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	<title>Comments on: Playoffs?! Defensive Edition</title>
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	<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/</link>
	<description>Ranting and Raving about the Gang Green</description>
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		<title>By: seanmac31</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167734</link>
		<dc:creator>seanmac31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167734</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.  Let&#039;s hope it turns out just as you say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough.  Let&#8217;s hope it turns out just as you say.</p>
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		<title>By: JesusRevis</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167657</link>
		<dc:creator>JesusRevis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167657</guid>
		<description>I repect your opinions, I just happen to disagree here, thats all.  I&#039;ll leave it at that.

But remember, when Revis is a hall of famer and finishes his career as one of the best corners of all time, don&#039;t forget about what I said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I repect your opinions, I just happen to disagree here, thats all.  I&#8217;ll leave it at that.</p>
<p>But remember, when Revis is a hall of famer and finishes his career as one of the best corners of all time, don&#8217;t forget about what I said.</p>
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		<title>By: seanmac31</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167634</link>
		<dc:creator>seanmac31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167634</guid>
		<description>But I&#039;m not trying to rank the corners, Jesus.  The numbers aren&#039;t there to spit out arbitrary rankings but to give you as much information as possible about not only how individuals performed but what the team concept was like.  Rolle is 33 and was only involved in a limited number of plays last year, but was very effective in his limited duty.  Teams don&#039;t generally sign 34-year-old corners (who in any event don&#039;t generally play as well as they did in the past), and I&#039;m in no way suggesting that Rolle is a better cover corner than Revis.  

I&#039;ve said repeatedly that Revis has the skills to be a very good corner.  I&#039;ve also said that his actual impact last season was less than, say, Corey Webster.  Webster was targeted 69 times, had a successful result on 62% of those throws, gave up 5.4 yards per throw and defended 25 passes while picking off three.  Was it a function of the pass rush?  Of the scheme?  Did the Giants spend their time playing tight man coverage while the Jets insisted on playing Revis off?  It doesn&#039;t really matter.  Webster was a more effective piece of the overall defensive structure than Revis was.  

You keep on asking me for a list or a ranking of some sort, and I&#039;m not trying to evade the question.  I just think that the idea of ranking corners is kind of silly, and that the distinctions between players isn&#039;t worth haggling over.  What I would say is this- cornerbacks (like many positions, actually) should be given a letter grade.  Asomuga gets an A+.  There are a good 15-20 guys who get an A or an A-, and they are more or less interchangable in terms of the impact they provide for a defense.  You can take Assante Samuel and Antoine Winfield and Darrelle Revis and Corey Webster and Courtland Finnegan and Chris Gamble and switch them all around and you aren&#039;t going to get a significant change in the performance of your defense, because the corner position is so heavily dependent on the parts around it and the scheme.  It&#039;s frankly a red herring to go off and worry about whether Revis is an A or an A-.  The problem is that the Jets have an A/A- on one side and a C/C- on the other, with a C- in nickel.  That&#039;s where the defense is going to have to make its improvement.  It makes no difference whatsoever whether Revis is the third best corner in the league or the 10th.  The way offenses attack the defense will be the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I&#8217;m not trying to rank the corners, Jesus.  The numbers aren&#8217;t there to spit out arbitrary rankings but to give you as much information as possible about not only how individuals performed but what the team concept was like.  Rolle is 33 and was only involved in a limited number of plays last year, but was very effective in his limited duty.  Teams don&#8217;t generally sign 34-year-old corners (who in any event don&#8217;t generally play as well as they did in the past), and I&#8217;m in no way suggesting that Rolle is a better cover corner than Revis.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve said repeatedly that Revis has the skills to be a very good corner.  I&#8217;ve also said that his actual impact last season was less than, say, Corey Webster.  Webster was targeted 69 times, had a successful result on 62% of those throws, gave up 5.4 yards per throw and defended 25 passes while picking off three.  Was it a function of the pass rush?  Of the scheme?  Did the Giants spend their time playing tight man coverage while the Jets insisted on playing Revis off?  It doesn&#8217;t really matter.  Webster was a more effective piece of the overall defensive structure than Revis was.  </p>
<p>You keep on asking me for a list or a ranking of some sort, and I&#8217;m not trying to evade the question.  I just think that the idea of ranking corners is kind of silly, and that the distinctions between players isn&#8217;t worth haggling over.  What I would say is this- cornerbacks (like many positions, actually) should be given a letter grade.  Asomuga gets an A+.  There are a good 15-20 guys who get an A or an A-, and they are more or less interchangable in terms of the impact they provide for a defense.  You can take Assante Samuel and Antoine Winfield and Darrelle Revis and Corey Webster and Courtland Finnegan and Chris Gamble and switch them all around and you aren&#8217;t going to get a significant change in the performance of your defense, because the corner position is so heavily dependent on the parts around it and the scheme.  It&#8217;s frankly a red herring to go off and worry about whether Revis is an A or an A-.  The problem is that the Jets have an A/A- on one side and a C/C- on the other, with a C- in nickel.  That&#8217;s where the defense is going to have to make its improvement.  It makes no difference whatsoever whether Revis is the third best corner in the league or the 10th.  The way offenses attack the defense will be the same.</p>
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		<title>By: JesusRevis</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167632</link>
		<dc:creator>JesusRevis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167632</guid>
		<description>Basically my point is any numbers system your using to rank these corners is flawed in so many aspects that its not fair to use that as the end all be all judgment.  I tried asking you several times for your own opinion, but your clearly in love with the numbers.  The success rate stat doesnt account for several important factors and therefor is way too flawed.  How can Rolle be better than Revis?  That is absurd.  Youre talking about a guy who wasn&#039;t re-signed, and a guy who nobody wanted to sign, so hes clearly not that good.  The only way to judge these things is by watching the games, and from watching Jets games I know that Revis was impossible to throw at unless he was in soft zone coverage.

And  I will say again, of course TD&#039;s allowed matters.  If a CB gives up 95 receiving yards but allows no TD&#039;s as you said before, then you&#039;re right, the TD&#039;s allowed is meaningless.  But when did Revis ever vep 95 receiving yards?  Has the guy ever given up 100 yards to a receiver?   TD&#039;s allowed does matter when your not only allowing VERY few Td&#039;s, but also allowing VERY few receiving yards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically my point is any numbers system your using to rank these corners is flawed in so many aspects that its not fair to use that as the end all be all judgment.  I tried asking you several times for your own opinion, but your clearly in love with the numbers.  The success rate stat doesnt account for several important factors and therefor is way too flawed.  How can Rolle be better than Revis?  That is absurd.  Youre talking about a guy who wasn&#8217;t re-signed, and a guy who nobody wanted to sign, so hes clearly not that good.  The only way to judge these things is by watching the games, and from watching Jets games I know that Revis was impossible to throw at unless he was in soft zone coverage.</p>
<p>And  I will say again, of course TD&#8217;s allowed matters.  If a CB gives up 95 receiving yards but allows no TD&#8217;s as you said before, then you&#8217;re right, the TD&#8217;s allowed is meaningless.  But when did Revis ever vep 95 receiving yards?  Has the guy ever given up 100 yards to a receiver?   TD&#8217;s allowed does matter when your not only allowing VERY few Td&#8217;s, but also allowing VERY few receiving yards</p>
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		<title>By: seanmac31</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167630</link>
		<dc:creator>seanmac31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167630</guid>
		<description>KC Joyner tracks that stat; we think it&#039;s unimportant.  Touchdowns allowed, much like touchdowns scored, are heavily dependent on context.  A corner who gives up five straight completions for 95 yards but then doesn&#039;t give up an actual touchdown hasn&#039;t done a very good job, whereas a corner who routinely shuts his man down yardage wise but is beaten in the end zone a few times after the defense has been stuck with a short field hasn&#039;t necessarily played badly.  Touchdowns allowed are way too context sensitive to mean much for a position like corner.  

Revis may well be very talented at man coverage, but that&#039;s not all a corner is asked to do.  And he doesn&#039;t always have to deny the catch for him to be effective.  The entire idea behind the Success Rate is to see how often Revis is winning the battle.  Giving up a hitch and tackling the receiver for a six yard gain is a win for Revis on 3rd and 8.  It&#039;s a loss for him on 1st and 10 or 2nd and 7.  If it was entirely a function of soft playcalling as you suggest, than Revis&#039; success rate will go up next year.  Baltimore&#039;s corners generally had higher success rates- 49% for Ivy, but 56% for Fabian Washington, 57% for Frank Walker and 64% for Samari Rolle, and all that done with a pass rush that was statistically inferior the the Jets&#039; one (Jets fans might be a little surprised to hear that, but it&#039;s true).  On the other hand, all of those corners save Rolle gave up nearly a yard more per pass than Revis, so they were playing more of an all or nothing style defense.  (Rolle averaged only 4.5 yards a reception, which was second-best in the league, while his 64% success rate was 6th best.)

Anyway, we&#039;ll see.  If Revis is as good as you are suggesting, he should be able to match Rolle&#039;s numbers, seeing as he&#039;ll be utilized in much the same way.  But Revis probably won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC Joyner tracks that stat; we think it&#8217;s unimportant.  Touchdowns allowed, much like touchdowns scored, are heavily dependent on context.  A corner who gives up five straight completions for 95 yards but then doesn&#8217;t give up an actual touchdown hasn&#8217;t done a very good job, whereas a corner who routinely shuts his man down yardage wise but is beaten in the end zone a few times after the defense has been stuck with a short field hasn&#8217;t necessarily played badly.  Touchdowns allowed are way too context sensitive to mean much for a position like corner.  </p>
<p>Revis may well be very talented at man coverage, but that&#8217;s not all a corner is asked to do.  And he doesn&#8217;t always have to deny the catch for him to be effective.  The entire idea behind the Success Rate is to see how often Revis is winning the battle.  Giving up a hitch and tackling the receiver for a six yard gain is a win for Revis on 3rd and 8.  It&#8217;s a loss for him on 1st and 10 or 2nd and 7.  If it was entirely a function of soft playcalling as you suggest, than Revis&#8217; success rate will go up next year.  Baltimore&#8217;s corners generally had higher success rates- 49% for Ivy, but 56% for Fabian Washington, 57% for Frank Walker and 64% for Samari Rolle, and all that done with a pass rush that was statistically inferior the the Jets&#8217; one (Jets fans might be a little surprised to hear that, but it&#8217;s true).  On the other hand, all of those corners save Rolle gave up nearly a yard more per pass than Revis, so they were playing more of an all or nothing style defense.  (Rolle averaged only 4.5 yards a reception, which was second-best in the league, while his 64% success rate was 6th best.)</p>
<p>Anyway, we&#8217;ll see.  If Revis is as good as you are suggesting, he should be able to match Rolle&#8217;s numbers, seeing as he&#8217;ll be utilized in much the same way.  But Revis probably won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: JesusRevis</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167611</link>
		<dc:creator>JesusRevis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167611</guid>
		<description>And when I say man coverage im talking about when the corner isnt 10 yrds off the receiver as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And when I say man coverage im talking about when the corner isnt 10 yrds off the receiver as well.</p>
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		<title>By: JesusRevis</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167610</link>
		<dc:creator>JesusRevis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167610</guid>
		<description>Well if thats the case then you are confirming my point.  The Jets played a soft coverageway too much last year which had Revis and the other corners playing too far off the line of scrimmage, which led to more targets and catches allowed by Revis.  But that doesnt mean any of those corners played better than him in man coverage.  My point is, when Revis is playing man coverage I dont believe there are more than 2 or 3 corners in the league better than him, and from watching games closely, several times, I saw him rarely get thrown at, and while playing man coverage barely 2 or 3 times a game.  Is that possible?

And I disagree about the TD&#039;s.  Of course it should matter how many TDs a corner gives up.  Do you have stat for TD&#039;s allowed by corners?  Im just curious to see them</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if thats the case then you are confirming my point.  The Jets played a soft coverageway too much last year which had Revis and the other corners playing too far off the line of scrimmage, which led to more targets and catches allowed by Revis.  But that doesnt mean any of those corners played better than him in man coverage.  My point is, when Revis is playing man coverage I dont believe there are more than 2 or 3 corners in the league better than him, and from watching games closely, several times, I saw him rarely get thrown at, and while playing man coverage barely 2 or 3 times a game.  Is that possible?</p>
<p>And I disagree about the TD&#8217;s.  Of course it should matter how many TDs a corner gives up.  Do you have stat for TD&#8217;s allowed by corners?  Im just curious to see them</p>
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		<title>By: seanmac31</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167568</link>
		<dc:creator>seanmac31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167568</guid>
		<description>Because that would be Revis&#039; man and his responsibility.  (And in that scheme, he&#039;s supposed to allow the catch and then come up and make the tackle for a short gain.  If he does so, his Adjusted Yardage and Success % numbers will reflect it.)  Targeted incorporates every instance where a pass is thrown and Revis is the closest defender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because that would be Revis&#8217; man and his responsibility.  (And in that scheme, he&#8217;s supposed to allow the catch and then come up and make the tackle for a short gain.  If he does so, his Adjusted Yardage and Success % numbers will reflect it.)  Targeted incorporates every instance where a pass is thrown and Revis is the closest defender.</p>
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		<title>By: seanmac31</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167566</link>
		<dc:creator>seanmac31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167566</guid>
		<description>Giving up touchdowns isn&#039;t a particularly good way to judge corners, as it is highly dependent on context.  Yardage allowed is much more telling.  (The same goes for offensive players, as an overemphasis on touchdowns leads to a fantasy football view of the league.)    

To answer your question, I would say that corner is a position that it doesn&#039;t make a ton of sense to look at in a vacuum.  I would say that those other players put up equal or better seasons within the context of their defenses than Revis did within the context of his.  If you want to say that Sheldon Brown and Assante Samuel had a better pass rush in front of them and therefore Revis should be bumped up however much while the other players should be downgraded however much, then you&#039;re welcome to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giving up touchdowns isn&#8217;t a particularly good way to judge corners, as it is highly dependent on context.  Yardage allowed is much more telling.  (The same goes for offensive players, as an overemphasis on touchdowns leads to a fantasy football view of the league.)    </p>
<p>To answer your question, I would say that corner is a position that it doesn&#8217;t make a ton of sense to look at in a vacuum.  I would say that those other players put up equal or better seasons within the context of their defenses than Revis did within the context of his.  If you want to say that Sheldon Brown and Assante Samuel had a better pass rush in front of them and therefore Revis should be bumped up however much while the other players should be downgraded however much, then you&#8217;re welcome to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: JesusRevis</title>
		<link>http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/07/23/playoffs-defensive-edition/#comment-167524</link>
		<dc:creator>JesusRevis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thejetsblog.com/?p=14113#comment-167524</guid>
		<description>And how are those stats compiled?  What is the definition of &quot;targeted&quot; in context to these stats?  Does it include when players are in coverages other than man?  If a corner is 10 yards off the line of scrimmage and the WR he is covering catches a quick screen why should that count against the corner?  

Revis is my favorite player and I watch him closely every game, and thanks to DVR, multiple times.  And i recall watching many games where he was barely thrown at 2 or 3 times, so I find 77 &quot;targets&quot; difficult to believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how are those stats compiled?  What is the definition of &#8220;targeted&#8221; in context to these stats?  Does it include when players are in coverages other than man?  If a corner is 10 yards off the line of scrimmage and the WR he is covering catches a quick screen why should that count against the corner?  </p>
<p>Revis is my favorite player and I watch him closely every game, and thanks to DVR, multiple times.  And i recall watching many games where he was barely thrown at 2 or 3 times, so I find 77 &#8220;targets&#8221; difficult to believe.</p>
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