The Rundown: Pundit Battle Lines Drawing on Gholston
Mike Lombardi wrote in the National Football Post that the Jets might have to to come to terms with their pick of Vernon Gholston and what to do with them.
The Jets have a huge problem with Vernon Gholston. The people I’ve spoken with know the term “bust” is in order, but because of his contract, he can’t be cut, or even traded. The Jets guaranteed him $17.4 million if he doesn’t play in 45 percent of the plays in any of the first four years. That numbers grows to more than $21 million if he does. He played in 16 percent last year. What would you do? The more he plays, the more he earns. Ouch. I can’t imagine the Jets starting him in place of suspended Calvin Pace.
But the truth is that Ryan will start Gholston for Pace … because he’s already told us as much. Now does he start all four game? I can’t say for certain.
We all know that Lombardi has been against Gholston for a long time now, and he might well be proven right before it’s all over. Lombardi loves to throw around the word “bust,” and I know he’s eager to tell everyone “I told you so.”
As far as his potential, Bart Scott spoke up with some sage words about folks who are ready to give up on Vernon Gholston just yet.
For those who are quick to jump on the “Gholston is a bust” bandwagon, Bart Scott has two words for you: Mario Williams.
Scott pointed to the situation that revolved around the player the Texans made the No. 1 overall pick in 2006, eschewing the opportunity to draft the explosive Reggie Bush and sparking some outrage among the fan base in Houston.
Williams made 35 tackles and 4 ½ sacks in his rookie season, but has flourished into one of the league’s top pass rushers, with 14 and 12 sacks in his last two seasons. Meanwhile, Bush has been injury-prone.
“There was a big debate about who won that draft,” Scott said.
“And now people are starting to lean more to (Williams) because players like that can last a lot longer. He can affect the game in so many different ways.”
Gholston still has to learn to play the run better — the Giants ran directly at him at times — and he’s not consistently coming off his blocks. When he’s engaged with a defender, he isn’t using his hands enough to free himself. He needs to develop more moves in his repertoire as he gets acclimated to Ryan’s scheme.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Within source from the team, it’s established gospel (before he was fired, mind you) that Mangini was the one who wanted Gholston, and who basically overruled the collegiate scouting team’s choice of Leodis McKelvin for the sixth pick. Mangini had done this sort of thing before (Anthony Schlegel anyone?) and it seemed that this more recent armbarring of his team was part of the “decision tree” that Woody Johnson noted during the time of Mangini’s firing.
If Mangini was Gholston’s biggest proponent and you saw how things went last year, then it’s hard to think there’s a lot of love for Gholston in the front office, as he’s a monument to Mangini, in some regards.
Still, that’s not to say that Gholston can’t or won’t turn it around …
The name Casserly is still considered (wrongly at this point) a joke because of his stepping over Reggie Bush for Mario Williams, but the truth is that Williams has been much more productive (and by not dating a Kardashian, likely, disease free) than Reggie Bush so far during their time in the league.
Bent and I have said time and time again, we can’t judge Vernon until the end of this, his second year. Yes he’s having problems getting going, yes he’s struggling to shed tackles (even against 3rd stringers like against the Rams) but let things play out a little more, before he’s cast on the pile.
74 Responses to The Rundown: Pundit Battle Lines Drawing on Gholston
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charleyjet says:
The Giants showed our first 4 opponents that they can run to Gholston’s side all day. His one tackle for the game (not including his penalty hit on the QB) was downfield 30 yards after he let the runner go by initially.
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The Ed(itor) says:
I would move VG to DE as that is a real weakness for the JETS and let Westerman play LB. It could be a win-win for JETS. VG is not smart emough to play LB. You have to think at LB and he is frankly not that smart. AT DE you don’t have to think as much.
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Kyle says:
By the way,
Are we really listening to Bart Scott? He has the biggest mouth on the team!
Lawrence Taylor also said Gholston could play football. Whatever happened with that?
And Mario Williams DID make an impact in his first year. He had 25 more tackles and four and a half more sack than Vernon Gholston will have in his entire NFL career. Mark the words.
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BigKatFan says:
against the eagles, he should play the entire game and blitz on every down from every direction. then it would be impossible for him not to contribute.
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He sucks as a 4-3 end too. Weren’t we watching the same preseason games? We were lining up in the 4-3 and putting Gholston on the end. It still didn’t work.
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Also, does anybody else want to trade Kellen Clemens IMMEDIATLY, and pick of Kevin O’Connell? He has been with the Patriots for a long time, and knows their playbook.
Let’s take a page from the Pats and pick this kid up as a 3rd stringer!
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Pdubbs says:
Yea this guy sucks. He plays way too soft and never gets through the line. What is really amazing is how bad he actually is. I can’t believe that most of the NFL thought this guy would be a beast. Of course WE are the ones that ended up with him.
I hope he turns it around, but I have to admit I am VERY nervous about him.
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Crazy Jets Fan!!! says:
I agree Bassett……..Bart Scott can’t wait for the light to go on so everyone can see what he can do, but from my point of view he’s running out of time. …….In one instance against the Giants, Gholston looked like he was an out of control colt chasing the QB and then giving up on the play prematurely. On the play he got the penalty negating the forced fumble, I thought it was clean, because he had his head up when he made the sack. I’ve certainly been supportive up to this point and I hope that these starts in place of Calvin will get him going.
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Wise Old Jet Fan says:
I don’t buy the Mangini thing, if Mr. T is letting his coach overule his scouts than Mr. T is not qualified to be GM.
Truth, Mr. T takes the hit here in any case. He was the one that went to the podium. If he DID want Gholston, he gets the demerit. IF he did let Mangini over rule his scouting department and his own instinct, he gets two demerits.
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Tom in Raleigh says:
Kyle, the reason the Mario Williams was considered such a bust is that he had very few sacks that first year. His tackle numbers were pretty good, just far from being an “impact” player.
You take that number, figure in that the Texans won just 6 games and place it against the fact that the Saints went to the championship game with a very exciting Reggie Bush and you have the recipe for the Williams bust talk.
If you all recall, the draft last year seemed very uncertain at the top. Gholston was the one player who I did not want the Jets to draft among that group…so of course, he fell right into our laps.
As Bassett has been preaching, we’ll look at him after this season and can all start declaring him worthless if he continues his lifeless play.
Hopefully we’ll see some moments, but I am not particularly hopeful about that.
I am convinced that his poor play must somehow be Rich Kotite’s fault.
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Grren Lantern says:
You guys have no clue what you are talking about Gholston thinks too much when he is playing…I have facts to back that up opposed to you people on here who think you are “NFL” scouts.
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seanmac31 says:
It’s pretty easy to say you wanted to take Leodis McKelvin over Vernon Gholston after the dust has settled. Anyway, I wasn’t a Gholston fan at all before the draft (and I mean at all) and I still can’t kill the front office for taking him. His strength and speed ratio is much more difficult to find than Leodis McKelvin’s, which is to say he falls firmly into George Young’s Planet Theory of drafting. It probably isn’t going to work out, but at the top of the draft, it’s all about scarcity and about the priority of the position. If you have a pass rusher and a corner and their grades are close, you take the pass rusher.
Anyway, I still think Gholston might turn into another Bryan Thomas, who had a very similar skill set and who also took several years before becoming a solid player.
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ESD says:
Gholston’s a bust, Mangini’s a jerk, Tannenbaum is an idiot, and I’m on the bandwagon(sarcasm).
Look, even if the above statement is true, we still have to pay Gholston, we already chased Mangini out of town, and Mr. T is here to stay.
Why not see how Gholston does this year? It isn’t unheard of for people( or NFL players) to make progress.
Steve Young stunk it up in Tampa before going to the Niners.
Also, I don’t think it’s so bad that a GM listens to the head coach about which players they think are best.
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NJets says:
Don’t you guys think we are getting carried away with the whole bust talk? Even if he is a bust, whats the point of constantly labeling him that? If we are so “stuck” with the pick we made, than we might as well look at the good things hes doing and saying. Im pretty sure at the time I was happy about the Gholston pick. Obviously in hindsight we’ve all become critical of the move but at the time you look at the kid in college and his size and raw talent and you say, hes going to be a beast. Luckily we don’t need him per say (maybe we do those first 4 games but whatever)… At this point even the slightest bit of progress will be a really good thing for this defense.
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I wanted Gholston even though I knew he was highly overrated in college. I saw the speed and strength and figured we could figure out a way for this guy to make impact plays…..
I have seen enough to know that he will never be a star or even a highly productive player. He will make a play here and there this year but he is not a starter but will stay with this team (and the NFL) for a while becasue of his “potential”.
Even with M Williams 1st year he made plays. He wasnt invisible. Being a Michigan fan I compared him to Lamarr Woodley since they both were DE and made the switch….but even Woodley made plays in limited action last year.
The project is almost over. It dosent matter if he plays DE or OLB he get swallowed by blocks or gets pushed away from the play run at him….The light will probably never go on for this kid…. at least not this year
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In the above post I meant Woodley made plays as a rookie. He obviously was a monster in his second year being last year
Something VG will not come close to being in 2009
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Jeff says:
Well Dewayne Robertson was a huge bust, but he played. I believe that like Thomas and Pace, it will take Gholston at least 3-4yrs before becoming a solid starter.
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I think the salary plays a big role into it. if Gholston plays 45% of the snaps and is on the roster in 2010 he gets a 3.6 million dollar check. He’ll carry a cap number at that point of at least 7 million dollars. The playing time may also trigger the first of a series of basic escalators. I’m not sure the Jets can afford to have a guy who is going to get 2 sacks and 20 tackles carry that kind of cap hit. I believe he would carry the third highest cap hit on the team at that point.
The Jets have tried to avoid another DeWayne Robertson situation with the deals they gave to Brick, Revis, and Gholston. They dont want mediocre guys who play enough to keep earning more money and take up a ton of cap room despite being an average player at best. Robertsons deal was actually the catalyst for why the Jets have begun to try to frontload rookie contracts, but Gholston is looked at as less than mediocre right now and Im not sure they want it frontloaded for a guy that just looks like a zero.
I think the team will start him for a game, maybe even two and if he doesn’t show major promise they will dial back on his snaps to keep him from getting that bonus and start planning an exit strategy.
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Brendan says:
Green Lantern – How can you have facts to back up your theory that he is thinking too much? I mean, I agree that he doesn’t play at his top speed because he thinks rather than reacts, but what facts could you possibly have to back this up?
And I really think Jamaal Westerman can make up for some of Gholston’s lack of production (and think that Westerman will earn at least 2 of the four starts in Pace’s absence). Westerman doesn’t read-and-react, he just trusts his instincts and flies to the ball. Granted, he is doing this mostly against backups, but you can see the fire and endless motor we’ve heard about really affect his play. He’s going to be a steal for us and could eventually make us all say “Vernon who?”
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Brad says:
On who wanted VG- If the Head Coach insists that he wants a guy in the draft, they draft that guy!
Listening to JetsNation last night and Buttle pretty much stated that Mangini didnt know how to coach, trying to teach a DE to play OLB is very hard, and Mangini doesnt coach well- more X”s and O’s rather than hands on showing and improving techniques. So Buttle was stating Rex is letting him play his more natural position of DE and teaching him fundamentals of how to play this game. Buttle stating that this is like his rookie season, actually being coached and learning- a lot of the young guys have stated how much more they learned this year compared to mangini’s regime. So this year he should start showing us something, but still looking unpolished and next year he should start looking good!
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Dewayne Robertson was much, much better than Vernon Gholston. They’re not even comparable. Robertson was an average to above average tackle when playing in the proper scheme. Gholston would not make the final roster if not for his salary number.
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Marc says:
I think the light will come on. I DVRed the game, went back and looked at Gholston play per play. Not only did he get pressure, but I have a problem with the notion that he was awful against the run. Yes, he didn’t shed his block as fast as he could have, but over time he’ll learn to use his hand better.
In regards to Gholston getting pressure, he walked his blocked into the backfield multiple times, took on a few double teams, which led to pressure from other players, and probably could have had a sack if he had taken a better angle to the QB once or twice.
He’s far from a finished project, but the guy has the talent, it’s just a matter of coaching him, and I think that’s certainly possible.
I don’t really care what the Lombardi “the Jets have no cap room” clown has to say this week.
I was bashing gholston during the TJB game chat, while Cmart was singing his praises, and he was right to do so.
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Yea, on one play in particular, I remember watching Gholston from start to finish and he literally lifted Kareem Mackenzie off the ground and tossed him aside, and continued to plow through Chris Snee (freeing up whoever was working the stunt with him). His raw physical tools are unbelievable to see when he utilizes them, so I agree with Marc and think that it’s a matter of technique and developing some moves to shed blocks and get to the qb.
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I did see a couple of times where he would have had an opportunity for a sack if he didnt get held, of course the refs dont throw the holding flag on the Giants, only on us! Same goes for when Pace almost got Eli, when Eli completed that nice pass to Boss!
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Jets-Fan-4-Life says:
I agree Kellen should be traded, I hear Kansas City, Denver, and San Fran needs a QB.
As for Gholston…. Look the team is screwed no matter how much time he plays. The team is screwed and stuck with him beacuse of the $ owed to him and him being a weak defensive position for opponents to charge at.
Hopefully he gets better this year, and becomes productive. On the positive side… if he sucks once this year is over we only have two more years to deal with him!
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Also on that Bradshaw long run- VG got blocked, that could of been his role, eat up the blocker allowing the LB to hit the RB- Bart Scott was right there to make the tackle and totally whiffed on the play. Stop hating on VG- i know its easy! But lets look at Bart Scott- he had a couple of real nice plays, stripping the ball from Jacobs, hitting Hixon leading to Harris’ Int.
But Scott also had some miscues too which no one is talking about – Missing that tackle on Bradshaw- look at the video, that was his play to make, no blocker on him, the blocker picked VG leaving Scott to make the tackle.
And on Jacobs TD catch on the first drive, Scott was the one who came over to try to cover him at the end- so I’m assuming that was his assignment. On that play what was with rushing 3 guys- had like four Jets in the center of the end zone covering like 1 Giant- major mis-communication! -
Bent says: Couple of things:
- You can’t compare Mario’s rookie numbers to Gholston’s because Gholston barely played.
- Lombardi is just piling on because it’s the Jets.
- Nearly all of those guys for whom the light came on in their second year didn’t come out a year too early like VG, which is why we’re saying not to expect too much this year.
- I didn’t like the pick, but I am more optimistic he’ll prove to be at least a starter (like Seanmac says, a more consistent BT is a realistic target) than I was because he’s further along on the learning curve than I expected at this point.
- When he stops making improvements from game to game, I’ll worry. That hasn’t happened yet.
- Westerman and Murrell are coming along nicely, but they aren’t outperforming Gholston by any measure I can see. They haven’t produced much more than he has going against 3rd stringers and both have made mistakes. The only real costly mistake VG had was to give up outside contain on a 20 yard run against the Rams.
- Anyone who blames the Gado or Rice TDs or the longMarshallBradshaw run on Gholston either doesn’t really know what they’re talking about or is just looking for an excuse to bash him.I still don’t think he’s ready to start though and a repeat of the situation against KC in the 2005 opener (when the Chiefs ran right at new starter Bryan Thomas three times in a row for an 80yd TD drive, sparking a blowout) would make the backlash overwhelming. He has improved a lot against the run since his college days, where he averaged just 2/3 tackles a game.
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Bent did u mean Bradshaw not Marshall when talking about Not Blaming VG on long runs!
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Bent says:
Yeah…it’s Ahmad Bradshaw from Marshall not Ahmad Marshall from Bradshaw!
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EastSide says:
I still think a hopeful comparison for Gholston is Pittsburgh’s Lawrence Timmons. Timmons struggled in his rookie campaign collecting only 13 tackles after playing in 16 games. Stuck on the chart behind Larry Foote, Timmons didn’t appear to warrant his 15th overall draft placement. However, he has grown since into a respectable starter (after the departure of Foote to Detroit) on a solid linebacker corp. If Gholston can just slowly grow into the position with the other LBs taking some of the heat off of him, he might still be successful yet.
Also, I honestly don’t see the lack of desire that everyone else does. Do I see confusion and hesitation? Yes, and it is cause for concern. However, I do see a player that tries to get in there, put pressure on the pocket, push back blockers and chase down a runner when he makes a break. -
JustAGreenGuy says:
What hurts me most about Gholston is watching other highly touted LB’s play. I know he has had a position change, but he just doesn’t do anything. You watch guys like Mayo or Mauluga who instantly adjust(enough to play at least) and make plays, meanwhile good ol Vern makes one tackle a game and it is ten yards down field.
The ghost is killing me.
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Pete57 says:
Here’s a message to those who bash Mr T.: The Pats just released Kevin O’Connel. He was the 94th selection in the draft 2 years ago. Everyone hails BB as a great drafter. If this were the Jets, you guys would be killing Mr T for that pick. The draft is not an exact science. Every team makes mistakes.
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dmazz says:
Tackles for loss matters not tackles
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Pete57, exactly. Look at New England’s 2007 draft. Only two players are still on the team from that draft year. Laurence Maroney, a former first rounder has yet to have a 1000 yard season. Of course the Patriots have had great picks too (painful), but drafting is much more complex than it’s made out to be.
That said, I remain confident we won’t look back at Gholston as a Bosworth five years from now.
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Mayo and Maualuga both played LB their entire careers. They had little adjustment to make, as they both stayed on the inside after being drafted. Gholston is inexperienced as a whole, let alone at the LB position. Comparing him to guys like Mayo and Maualuga is unfair.
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We didn’t pick VG to wait around. I’m all for giving him time to learn OLB but he doesn’t go after the ball, jump into a pile or anything “football like.” He just looks like a big waste of space out there.
I know I’m not a scout….. but do I need to be ? It’s pretty clear to anyone that in football you tackle and score points… none of which Gholston has done yet.
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Some people forget we were in a horrible position in the draft that year. Every other team knew it as well so we had no trading partners either up or down. We had to either take Gholston or take the chance that he would be a patriot and kill our QB’s for years to come. He still looks like he has a long way to go, but either way I will not kill Mr T for this pick.
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Gholston beat guys in college with 2 moves….speed and a powerful bull rush. Unitl he develops another way to the QB he will struggle… playing OLB or DE
Again… I wanted the kid because he has rare “potential” but you can’t wait 3-4 years for a OLB to develop. The light needs to go on for this kid soon .
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ramble914 says:
Eastside,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I too don’t see the lack of desire or heart that others have mentioned, I see hesitation and confusion that hopefully will be corrected with playing time and coaching. I don’t think that VG will ever be a superstar, but hopefully he will become a good player.
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DSmizzle says:
Gholston is terrible. He might improve down the line (which I doubt will be enough to make him a good player, even if he does improve), but right now he is awful… absolutely horrible at the game of football.
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Brendan. – Westermann was a DE too. How come he looks so natural in his new position? Because he is a football player. DEs don’t shed blocks I guess, because Gholston sure can’t. Every play I watch him I hope he is saving his money. He would not make this roster if we didn’t draft him where we did.
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I see allot of good points about VG from everyone. However if the Jets could have foreseen the outcome of the 2008 draft class and went back and made a different selection instead of taking VG, IMO we would not be that much better off.
Say the Jets and Patriots swapped draftee picks Gholston, and Mayo. Yes the Jets would have had a better defensive player, but chances are Bill Belichick would have had a field day salivating over the opportunity to create a monster out of Vernon Gholston that would have reeked-havoc on Jets twice a year for years to come.
I say this only because Belichick knows how to create winners out of dead weight. Mangini couldn’t develop a winner out of a True and False question with a cheat sheet!
In the end it all comes down to the coaching staff. Yes Rex is a defensive mind that can create his own players, and he might be able to develop Vernon into something useful. Chances are it will not be this year, only because there are too many areas that need his attention first. Areas like….
- (Priority #1) Develop a Rookie QB who is now the starter.
- (Priority #2) Develop and implement new defensive scheme (one with a group of starters out on injury, or suspension).
- (Priority #3) Develop an offensive unit (built to be a run first offense) due to a lack of talented receivers.
- (Priority #4) Due to the lack of draft picks and slim free agent market try to develop as much as possible (quantity not quality) depth this year.
- (Priority #5) Changes in coaching personal (get them to drink the Kool-Aid, and get them to educate the players in the new scheme).
- (Priority #6) Change the organization/team atmosphere (or stink) left behind from the last head coach.
- (Priority #7) One on one development with players that needs assistance (only after coaching staff and surrounding team provides initial assistance).Unfortunately next year we may see VG jump into the game with some life, as this year IMO his only education will be provided by the players around him like Scott.
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Jack says:
I’m not ready to pull the plug on Gholston yet. Yes, I would like to see him be more aggressive and I had hoped he would be further along by now but he does flash the potential every now and then.
Had there been no penalty on the sack we would all be talking about the “awesome strip sack and turnover” that Gholston made. The first of the preseason I might add. Who know, that might be the thing he needed to get his confidence going and get a fire lit under him. Go back and look at the film of Harris’ interception and you will see Gholston driving jacobs right into Eli.
He is obviously strong as hell but plays a little tentative. That may be the way he remains or he may just need a spark to get him going. The guy barely played last year after getting a late start and learning a new position. Whether anyone is happy about it or not he is here for the next couple of years anyway so let’s see how it plays out over the course of this season before labeling him a bust. He would hardly be the first player to start slow and come on after a year or two.
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JAGG- Westermann played DE out of necessity. Rutgers had no good DE’s and although he came into college as a LB, made the transition to DE for the benefit of his team. That’s probably why he made such an easy transition back to LB.
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Zartan says:
Brad,good post .It full of logic. You can go back to mini camp when i first said that Vernon needs moves. I wanted him as a DE last season and thats why i was happy with the pick. This year i kinda got down on the guy,but by seasons end,he has to show us something.
Yes the refs allways let teams get away with holding this team. I remeber John Abraham getting held on every snap right in front of the ref and complained , they never called it.Even when the guy pull him down to the floor on one play. Its a joke. on the flip side of that. i rember a jet game when the refs gave us every penalty and opertunity to win and we couldnt.
All in all, Gholstons moving in on the bust status.
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Bent,
I don’t think Lombardi is piling on because it’s the Jets. He has been and continues to be highly complimentary of Mark Sanchez. He killed the Jets last year for thinking they could sit with Kellen Clemens instead of going after Matt Ryan (and he proved to be right), and he’s killed the Vernon Gholston pick since Gholston first hit the field.
Basically, he’s been of the opinion that Kellen Clemens can’t play in the NFL and that Vernon Gholston is a disaster. And in each case, he’s been right. Hopefully, he’ll be right on Sanchez as well.
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Brendan- Still his growth for not having college coaching at the position is exponentially better than Gholstons. Gholston has zero impact plays in two years. I understood his progression would be slow, but we should have seen glimpses of his potential and what I see is a guy with no moves and who can’t shed blocks. I’ve tried to keep an open mind with him, but even when the defense is set to play to his strengths(4-3 front) he did very little.
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JAGG- I feel like we have seen glimpses of his potential. I’ve witness him throw 300 pound lineman out of the way. Now, after he did that he looked utterly lost. After Bart missed the tackle on the Bradshaw run, it was Gholston who ran him down. So there have been glimpses. What I agree wholeheartedly on is that he needs moves. A simple club move would suffice for now. He acts like he’s pushing a sled in Florham Park a lot of the time. I think it’s Sackdance who always mentions it, but a spin move would be his deadliest move because with a simple shove and spin in the opposite direction he’d have a few feet of space and a lane to get after the QB.
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Bent says:
Eastside – Bosworth was great as a rookie and then went backwards until being considered a bust. Hopefully we’ll one day remember Gholston as the opposite!
Seanmac – Yeah, you’re right. I actually disagree with myself here. The cap nonsense was all to do with getting on the Jets and trying to make Tannenbaum look inadequate. This VG stuff is still piling on, but it’s actually to protect his outspoken position that VG will fail. He has ignored every positive comment on VG and focused on negatives at every opportunity. He might prove right that VG will never get it together, but like you, I can’t rule that out based on what we’ve seen to date. Lombardi is going to look fairly stupid if VG turns into a half decent player.
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Brendan- My problem is he acts like he is working drills sometimes. I’ve seen times where he has just ran at a guy and acted like he is a sled. Even after the play has been past him. It drives me nuts. I don’t give many points for chasing a guy down after a ten yard gain. At least 7 people better be chasing that guy down.
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Oh I agree with you, but the fact that Bradshaw is a speed demon and Gholston caught him in itself impressed me. He didn’t give up on the play, and technically did the right thing (using inside shoulder to meet blocker, turning Bradshaw into the middle of the field…wasn’t his fault that no one pursued to the play). I guess I’m just measuring him with baby steps now and once I see he is a fundamentally decent player I’ll expect broader jumps in his play.
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Sean, you seem to be giving Lombardi way too much credit. If and when Vernon Gholston is cut, then that would be a “disaster”. His situation is far from a disaster at this point. He has a defensive minded head coach working with him, that will hopefully turn him into a productive player. He could turn out to be a disaster, but there is alot more to be seen in this story.
Who says Kellen Clemens can’t play in the NFL? I saw him several times, as a second year player, take his team downfield at the end of games and make a play to win or tie. That alone shows he has some ability. For most QB’s the circumstances surrounding them have a huge impact on their career. The great ones are going to be great no matter what. But the majority need good circumstances. The fact that Ryan chose Sanchez over him doesn’t mean he can’t play. You know that he will sign as a free agent next year with some other team, and be given a chance to compete there. As with VG, the Clemens story is far from over.
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JetInDallas says:
Marc, good post.
Brendan, your initial post was pretty fair.
Brad, one suggestion. On the “Bradshaw” run, look at where Gholston was lined up. He was in the slot, almost on the 40 yard logo, indicating he was covering Nicks short. Since, it was a run, he attacked the line from that distance, but he did not have “run” responsiblity on that play.Other guys: you need to “slow-mo” the Gholston plays as you watch the game with the sound OFF and don’t listen to Carl Banks (annoying). His analysis of that play was that the Giants were running at Gholston all day. Sure they did, but there was only one play where they got outside on Gholston. That was on a trap play by #77 (wide as a truck) after the helmet to helmet hit. Gholston held his own on all other running plays.
Who was the Jet that put pressure on Manning on the interception? Who had pressure on Manning on a call that ended up as pass interference on Sheppard?
There were several plays where Gholston beat #76 only to be pickep by another lineman.
Is he there yet? No, but he is on the way.
Brad, there were five Jets covering two Giants in the end-zone on the Jacobs TD.
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Harvlis says:
According to many of you, Gholston is a bust, never having started a regular season NFL game. He barely has any experience at a completely new position, in a completely new defensive scheme, in the toughest football league in the world — and you know for sure that Gholston will never be a factor. Bull—.
Mike Lombardi shows his lack of sports knowledge, as well, by coming to the same conclusion. I would think that a sports writer would have a clue about the sport that he is writing about.
It could take years for Gholston to learn his craft. He is up against big, strong, experienced, wiley professional football players. The same way that baseball pitchers have to learn the hitters and vice versa — football players have to learn the tricks and tendencies of their opponents. Gholston hasn’t had the opportunity to do that.
I want him to add to our already potent defense, as much as all of you. Let’s give him the opportunity to learn his craft, before we run him out of town. Ever hear of Nolan Ryan — the Mets got rid of him early in his career — he was a little wild. Do you think they should have had a little patience?
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Harvlis,
Lombardi isn’t a sports writer- he’s a 20-year NFL personnel man who worked under both Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick. Sorry, but he has complete credibility.
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Seanmac,
No one can call a player a bust, if the player hasn’t played a single regular season game. I don’t care who he was under. If he wants to say that the Jets shouldn’t count on Gholston to make a difference this year — I could agree with him (so far). As for his future — no way he could possibly know.
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James in TN says:
Bent- What positive play or progress has Gholston made? I must have missed it because I watch him during games hoping I am wrong about him. Not been proved wrong yet, he sucks.
Ainge, however is better than I thought. I was wrong there. I still hate how he effed our chances of winning the SEC Championship because he threw to the wrong jerseys , but he is doping better with the Jets….Freudian slip? Doing better. LOL
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Harvlis,
First off, it’s damning that Gholston was completely unable to get on the field as a rookie despite his draft position. Secondly, it’s not unreasonable for a personnel man to look at a player and see that he is totally and completely out of his depth in the league and to make an evaluation that the player simply will not ever be a good player in the NFL. In any event, you have to factor draft position into the evaluation. Let’s say that Gholston develops into an effective player by his sixth year in the league? Is he a terrible pick for the Jets? Absolutely, because they paid for five years of premium production and got nothing in return. You can’t have the #6 pick in the draft play special teams for his first three years in the league.
I happen to take a slightly (and I mean slightly) more optimistic view of Gholston’s future than Lombardi, but I have no problem with his taking his position. To this point, it’s entirely justified.
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Seanmac,
I don’t think it has turned out to be a great draft pick, so far. When you pick that early in the draft, you would hope for the player to help out quickly. This does not mean he can’t make everybody forget his slow start.
I agree with you, Gholston came in late last year and was poorly coached. His year was wasted. This year, he is lucky enough to get two of the best defensive coaches in football, in Ryan and Pettine. Now, we need two things. Time for the coaches to figure out how Gholston can do the most damage and time for Gholston to learn.
Notice how Lombardi said “the people I have spoken with”. This is not even his opinion. You can’t attribute his personal knowledge of players and his experience to this opinion. Lombardi might not have even seen Gholston play, this year. I think it might make more sense for you to listen to Bart Scott, who plays along side Gholston, than to Lombardi and his unnamed sources.
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Lombardi has made Gholston a project of his, and he’s absolutely followed him closely, both this preseason and last year. I’m much more likely to take an independent analyst with a lot of pro personnel acumen seriously than a teammate, who will never put down a guy on his team.
I also don’t think that Gholston was poorly coached last year. There’s certainly no evidence for it.
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Lombardi made Gholston a project of his but, his opinion about whether he is a bust or not is from the others that he has spoken with?
The evidence that Gholston was not coached or used properly is that they barely gave him playing time last year. A player can’t get better, sitting on the bench. Time will tell but, no one can possibly know that Gholston is a bust, at this point.
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I think part of the problem with Lombardi is that he has in the past made some comments about the Jets that have been kind of off. He was the guy that led the charge that the Jets were something like 30 million over the cap based on his sources which was something that was never even close to being the case. He pawned it off on other AFC East execs telling him that number. Those could be the same folks giving him his VG sucks info as well. I happen to agree with what he says about VG, but I do think some will question his credibility when it comes to the Jets.
Seans point about paying for production is spot on. you wont find a player drafted to be a DE or 34 OLB in the last 20 years drafted in the top 10 that was as bad as VG was in year 1 and made it. Teams simply dont have the time to waste to wait and those players really have no financial incentive to stick with it either. DE is traditionally a boom or bust type position and close to 50% wash out by the end of their third season. Unless Gholston has a big turnaround in 2009 he’ll be lucky to last through 2010.
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All that Gholston’s playing time was evidence of was that he wasn’t good enough to get on the field. A coach can’t play an inferior player over a better one simply because of his draft position. Time may well tell, but there isn’t a single player in the first round draft who has been worse than Gholston to this point. Surely that is fair to say.
Lombardi is very astute. Here was his take on the Jets leading up to the draft last year. It looks a hell of a lot better than what actually happened:
Michael Lombardi is a 22-year veteran of NFL personnel departments, spending eight years with the Raiders and nine years with the Browns, in addition to brief stints with the Broncos, Eagles and 49ers.
Draft weekend is one of my favorite times of the year. NFL executives have spent the past nine months studying and now it’s finally time to take the exam. As they enter the war room it is essential that they rely on their knowledge of every team’s strengths and weaknesses and, most importantly, how those teams will think and react. Here are my recommendations for several teams this weekend:
If I worked for the Jets, I would …
Prepare for the unexpected. The draft for the New York Jets does not start until the Atlanta Falcons make their selection at No. 3. Before the Falcons make their pick, I would have two plans in place.Plan A would assume the Falcons did not select Boston College quarterback Matt Ryan. I would then be on the phone with Arkansas running back Darren McFadden and his representatives, telling them he would be our guy at No. 6. I’d do this while knowing and hoping the phone calls might force the Raiders hand in actually selecting McFadden at No. 4. At the same time I would make numerous trade offers to the Raiders — with absolutely no intention of trading — knowing Al Davis hates to trade down on draft day. If the Raiders suspect we are trying to trade up to get McFadden then this freezes the pick, meaning the pick is not for sale to anyone else at that moment. My main goal is to tie up the Raiders’ phone lines, freeze their pick and determine what Baltimore is thinking at No. 8.
The Ravens are my main competition for a quarterback and I need to do whatever is possible to determine their course of action. I don’t expect the Raiders to move, but I am hoping they will offer me some vital clues with each one of my calls. On draft day, every team’s strategy has to be declared; it’s now time to show your hand. Every phone call I make, I closely listen to the voice on the other line to determine if they are bluffing or if they have something concrete in the works.
If the Raiders pass on every deal offered and select McFadden, as I suspect, and I also determine that Baltimore is on the move to acquire Ryan, then I call the Kansas City Chiefs at No. 5 to discuss flopping picks. I know I cannot freeze Kansas City’s pick because the Chiefs have so many holes that they will be trying to acquire picks all day. Carl Peterson, the Chiefs president, is not an easy trade partner. He has to win every deal. That is just Carl’s nature. He will suspect I am desperate, willing to pay his price to acquire Ryan. But I will offer what I believe is a fair deal based on the value of the picks being exchanged and not back down. If Peterson thinks he can intimidate or bluff me into a deal, then he is dead wrong. I also know Baltimore GM Ozzie Newsome is not likely to overpay for the pick nor get strong-armed by Peterson. Newsome is a value drafter and rarely does he throw in all his chips. But if Newsome is willing to overpay, that still will not change my thoughts or offer. So I make my offer and stand firm.
If I lose Ryan to the Ravens then my choice is pretty simple: I take Jonathan Stewart, the Oregon running back. Stewart is not receiving the accolades his talent deserves, mainly because of his recent turf toe surgery, yet he may prove to be the best back in this draft. One thing I definitely don’t do is sit still. I start making calls to teams in the back end of the first round. With Ryan in Baltimore, I know my competition for Michigan quarterback Chad Henne has been reduced by one team. I start calling Seattle at 25, San Diego at 27 and Dallas at 28, with trade offers using my second-round pick (No. 36 overall) to get back into the first round.
I also will worry about the Chicago Bears trying to move into the bottom of the first round. But I know Bears GM Jerry Angelo very well. He is strict and disciplined when it comes to valuing draft picks. He loves multiple picks and is very reluctant to part with any. I also know the Chiefs are potential players in the quarterback market. Depending on what position they take at No. 5, that will help me understand where they may be headed with their 17th pick that they just acquired in the Jared Allen trade.
Now, Plan B. If the Falcons pick Ryan at three, then I stay where I am and pick Stewart, assuming the Raiders take McFadden. I will still work my plan to get back into the first round to get Henne. But now I know Baltimore will be even more serious competition. So I may have to move further into the first round, calling the Redskins at 21 and the Steelers at 23. I have to work every single one of my options and keep applying the pressure on all the teams to finalize a deal. My goal is to come out of this draft with a running back and quarterback, two cornerstones of the future for my team. Nothing can stop me from achieving that goal.
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junior says:
Ghostman looks like tarzan plays like jane mark my words he will be wrestling for the heavyweight championship in wrestlemania with in the next 3 years
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junior , I must disagree. Wrestling involves physical contact, Gholston abhors that. I see a reality show in his future, tops.
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Bent says:
Wrestling? He doesn’t have the personality for it.
Sean – I agree he’s astute, but it’s not the comments in this article that are going too far, it’s some more extreme criticisms he has made via twitter. Gholston may eventually leave the Jets without making an impact, but I still think it’s wrong (whatever the outcome) to completely rule out the possibility this earlier in the career of a guy who was raw anyway and plays a position that usually takes at least a year to master.
Like Jason says, you have to question his sources. The thing with the cap made Tannenbaum look bad, but was completely baseless. This thing makes Tannenbaum look bad, but…who knows. Based on what I have seen, he looks like he might be ready to produce next year (and remember this should be his rookie year).
Do you think certain AFC East execs might have motivation to make Tannenbaum look bad? If that’s the case, then I apologize to Lombardi (not that he’s listening), because maybe he’s just listening to bad sources rather than piling on the Jets as I had been thinking.
Florio on the other hand…
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Bent says:
James in TN – “Bent- What positive play or progress has Gholston made? I must have missed it because I watch him during games hoping I am wrong about him.”
Bearing in mind he did next to nothing against 2nd and 3rd stringers in last preseason and had just 5 tackles and (unofficially) 6 pressures all last season, almost anything he does is progress.
- He has clearly got stronger, having more success driving back offensive linemen
- He is disengaging blocks better
- He usually shows good discipline in maintaining contain on the edge (only failing to do that once so far this preseason)
- As a down linemen from 3 man fronts in passing situations, he was consistently getting more pressure than the other two linemen, despite being double teamed
- In short yardage situations, he has held his ground well
- He looked good chasing down a runner from behind
- He finally hit someone!If you want specifics:
- Westerman makes a stop for a loss and gets lauded for it, but everyone ignores the fact that Gholston busted up a double team
- Even though it was a quick drop, Gholston got into Manning’s face causing him to rush a throw and see it picked offI’m not saying he is great and even good, but he IS showing progress and he IS outperforming guys like Murrell and Westerman from what I’ve seen so far, so all this “he’d be cut if he wasn’t a first round pick” stuff is a stretch.
Maybe he’s not doing much, but he’s doing it against first and second stringers this year, which is progress in and of itself and the Jets defense has been decent, even with him in there, so he can’t be doing all that bad. Even the slightest progress is a step in the right direction!
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Bent, I think one of the biggest problems everyone has with Gholston is that nobody realized what a project this kid would be. This is not the NBA and you do not draft guys that are 3-4 year projects in the NFL in the top 10. Gholstons technique is awful thus far. His one move is simply the bullrush. He plays way high and just looks stiff.
Westerman certainly doesnt have the physical skills VG has. you can tell that simply by the sack and the way he chased down Bradshaw. I think Westerman comes across looking better because he looks like a guy who understands the game. He knows ways to try to get around a blocker or how to move laterally. Will that translate to first stringers? Probably not. He isnt fast enough or strong enough. David Carr simply outran him the other day. But he at least looked fluid trying to get him. In contrast watch when VG chased Carr. Carr sidestepped and VG is so stiff he just cant turn. He ended up doing what looked like a funky dance move and eventually fell over. Right now he just looks like someone who needs to take wide angles to turn and pursue. He nailed Bradshaw because it was straight ahead from where he got blocked. If Bradshaw cut towards the center of the field I dont think Gholston would have ever gotten there. Hopefully in week 1 the coach moves him around alot to confuse the offense because right now he is going to be the target of alot of plays. The type of blocking scheme that Houston uses I think will totally confuse him.
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Bent says:
Jason – I wrote an article last May (after he was drafted, but before he played a game in the NFL) saying that I didn’t expect much from him in his first year and that Mangini should get him experience by using him as a situational pass rusher. (That never happened, partly because there were no pass rushing situations on last year’s team).
So, it’s not true that nobody realized what a project he would be, because I did!
In the article, I said I hoped that he would start to come on in the second half of his second season and I cited Gaines Adams as an example because they have similar size and athletic profiles (actually Gholston’s measurables are better) and both had the same doubts about taking plays off, stiffness in the hips etc. Adams came on over the second half of his first season (after a quiet start), so I expected Gholston to come on over the second half of his second season, considering he came out a year earlier AND had to change positions.
The article basically said you never know, maybe he will contribute sooner than that and maybe he will never contribute, but that I expected him to come on at pretty much the speed he has done to this point. It puts the Jets in a tough spot because at the moment he’s right in the middle of that gray area where he could still go either way.
I wrote the article in response to being called an idiot and not a true Jets fan after I took the under when someone suggested he would get 10 sacks and it feels like I’ve been managing expectations ever since. Naming him the starter didn’t help!
I share your concerns that he will struggle in Houston, but even if he does, I still don’t think we should write him off.
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I hope he is the target of a lot of running plays. Offensive lineman can’t move him out of the way. And as a former linebacker who played in a 3-4ish scheme, I have to say he does a good job setting the edge (sans one 20 yard run vs. St. Louis). Outside contain doesn’t net you a lot of stats, but if you see Scott and Harris making 10+ tackles in a game, Gholston setting the edge and turning runners inside will almost certainly be part of the reason.
And as Bent pointed out, he was receiving double teams quite often. Not many players in this league can rack up numbers vs. a double team, let alone a young guy transitioning and still learning.
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Bent- IMO Gaines Adams is a bum too.
Gholston is our whether we want him or not.
At least we have Pace. -
Bent says:
Adams has 12.5 sacks in two years. If he starts producing at a similar level, then the Jets will start to get something like their money’s worth.
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I just want a tackle for a loss from Gholston. Thats worth a million right there. I should clarify that I think Gaines Adams is a let down for the Bucs, while Gholston has been a ghost who may one day become a player in the NFL.
He’s has no fire guys, let’s be honest.
An NFL Coach cannot prepare a player who is not mentally ready to play football. I don’t care how strong your are, or how fast you are.
Vernon Gholston’s biggest problem is he lacks football knowledge, instincts, and the desire to punish the opposing team.
For example, the Jets/Giants game. You notice how Vernon Gholston is never in on the pileup? He watches everybody else do the tackling. He doesn’t want to be in there. He doesn’t have the game down in his head, it isn’t his passion.
Maybe he’ll make a good accountant, or yoga instructor some day. But football player? Please, let’s move on and give some real players a shot, like Westerman and Murrell. Playing Gholston during the regular season is going to cost us money and time. And we have neither.
I also refuse to believe that Mangini armbarred his way to get Gholston. If this was the case, don’t you think Tanny would’ve signed him to a more incentive based contract? Everybody in the Jets organization was high on this guy, whether they end up blaming Mangini for him or not.