Ted Ginn Is a Miami Dolphin (Not for Long, Apparently)
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaYgGSHJ5hM
Yes, Mike Mayock, draft guru extraordinaire what DO fans know? Apparently they know what it took the Dolphins organization a few years to figure out.
ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reports Ginn is going to see reduced playing time, and the Dolphins would be actively shopping him if the trade deadline hadn’t already passed.
Ginn had more glaring drops Sunday. The worst should have been a first down, but went for a Saints touchdown.
Saints safety Darren Sharper intercepted a pass that bounced off Ginn’s hands and ricocheted off Saints defender Tracy Porter. Dolphins coach Tony Sparano said Chad Henne made “a very good throw.” But Ginn batted the ball, and Sharper ran it back for a touchdown.
Miami Herald columnist Greg Cote writes “Ginn is the gift that keeps on not giving. He is the 2007 Cam Cameron-regime draft misstep that continues to haunt and hurt Miami.”
But Cam Cameron knew his family, so that makes it all better … right? PFT is reporting today that Ginn actually spent most of practice today on the sidelines. My only regret for Cam Cameron coaching the Dolphins for one year? That it wasn’t two.
77 Responses to Ted Ginn Is a Miami Dolphin (Not for Long, Apparently)
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JesusRevis says:
Kyle Brady over Warren Sapp
Bryan Thomas over Ed Reed
Ken O’Brien over Dan Marino-way to go Jets
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Peyton Manning returning to play his Senior year at Tennessee rather than entering he draft, leaving the Jets with Keyshawn Johnson at #1 can be mentioned as well.
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haynow says:
toon before rice
thomas before smith -
brian g. says:
You can’t blame the Jets for Ed Reed because plenty of other teams passed on his as well.
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I can watch that video a thousand times (and have) and it makes me smile every single time.
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Hate the Phins and hope revenge is served cold on Sunday.
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Eddie DiGio says:
Key would have been a great player here if Parcells didnt leave. Bill was the only guy that could get Keyshawn to play to the maximum of his ability. You have to remember, Key was a dominant WR the year we went to the AFC title game and had a great game to get a ring in Tampa. His mouth was just bigger than his brain….
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Brian G,
The Jets needed a safety and Reed would not have been a reach by any standards. They took Thomas instead, who I like as a player, but he aint no Ed Reed
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supercooljetfan says:
the draft blunder that gets me the most pissed is the kevin jolley trade for a 1st round pick…if we would of never did that trade we could of had heath miller the tight end from the steelers he may not be great but at least he is still in the league
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Live4Draft says:
Parcells would not commit to Peyton Manning at #1 in 1997 or would not promise Archie the pick would not be traded depending on the story you believe. So instead at #8 we got James Farrior, a 3rd and 2 4th round picks after trading back from #1 Orlando Pace to #6 Walter Jones. We drafted Key in 1996. While Brady over Sapp was TERRIBLE…Peyton, Key, Chrebet and Curtis would have been fun to watch!
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Parcells was shown in the war room after saying we had to take the linebacker over the OT because a LB would not be there in the 2nd. So instead of Walter Jones and Jamie Sharper (LB that fell) we took the infamous Rick Terry at the top of the second.
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freshAShell says:
all the dolphins fans wanted them to take Quinn at 9. turns out they both suck
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igs says:
The biggest draft blunder of the new regime is having 13 draft picks in 3 years in a league where guys get hurt like it’s nothing. I think Ginn and Quinn will be fine. They just need situations that suit them better. Hopefull Ginn moves out of the AFC East and doesn’t come to the NFC East.
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john sec.125 says:
why couldn’t ginn have dropped that pass three weeks ago?
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Brendan says:
Igs,
Is it really necessary to start up the draft picks conversation again? Our draft philosophy is about quality not quantity.
Ginn is just not a good receiver. He could be a dynamic return man/slot guy, but he is never going to be a #1 and will always carry the ‘bust’ label because of where he was drafted.
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Brendan, I just think if you’re talking about Jets draft blunders we should talk about the ones from the current regime as well as the past.
As far as Ginn, I haven’t sen anything to say in the right situation he doesn’t become prolific. But we’ll see.
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His prolific number of big-time drops? Maybe?
What draft-day blunders have the current regime had?
So far he has drafted:
2006:
D’brick
Mangold
Clemens
Schlegel
Eric Smith
Brad Smith
Leon
Jason Pociask
Drew Coleman
Titus Adams2007:
Revis
Harris
Jacob Bender
Chansi Stuckey2008:
Gholston
Keller
Lowery
Ainge
Marcus Henry
Nate Garner2009:
Sanchez
Greene
SlausonNow…Adams, Bender Pociask, and Garner were all late second day picks, so while they did nothing for the team, they aren’t considered ‘blunders’.
Schlegel, yes, horrible pick.
Clemens, I guess you could say a blunder, but the guy isn’t atrocious and has won some games in the NFL.
Gholston is still too raw and too much of a project to say he’s a ‘blunder’ he does the dirty work inside now, and will be increasingly important in that role with Jenkins out all year.
So yea, tons of blunders in his 3 drafts.
Also in those 3 drafts:
Revis- best CB in football.
Harris- one of the best ILB’s in football.
D’Brick- on his way to a pro bowl and showing he was worth his draft pick.
Mangold- probably the best center in football. If not the best, top 2 or 3.
Leon- dynamic return man, one of the best home run threats in football.
Eric/Brad Smith- guys who may not be studs, but have shown they can contribute and Eric is flourishing under Rex. (Also, I can’t believe that I just said Smith contributes, but this season he’s shown he is somewhat important to the offense….I will now go throw up)
Stuckey- Started the season for us, great skill set for a slot/possession receiver
Keller- Dynamic TE/WR Hybrid in the Dallas Clark mold
Lowery- showing the ball-hawk skills that the Jets valued when they took him, improving every game he plays in, will turn into a solid starting CB in this league.
Ainge- showing solid progression, great value pick.
Sanchez- the future
Greene- the future (possibly present) battering ram.
Slauson- Faneca’s replacement.Man, that Tanny sure sucks at drafting.
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Brendan –
agree wholeheartedly that Tanny has done a great job with the draft. It does suck to give up draft picks, but it’s not like we’re getting nothing in return. What’s important if you give up draft picks is that you hit a home run when you do it. So far (Revis, Harris, and probably/hopefully Sanchez, Greene, Edwrads) are just that. If you trade a pick for a guy like Jolley (not to mention drafting a kicker in the 2nd round in the same draft), then you open yourself up to much deserved ridicule.
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SackDance99 says:
Did someone actually criticize drafting Al Toon?!? The only thing that kept Toon from an HOF career was the concrete astroturf in Giants Stadium and terrible QB play. If the Jets had drafted Rice, the 49ers would’ve drafted Toon in a heartbeat. Geez, did this guy see Toon play? Besides Maynard and, maybe, Walker, Toon was the best WR in Jets history. He had it all, size, speed, great hands, precsion route-running, etc. WOW, criticizing Toon? WTF!!!!!
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Brendan, you’re kind of tlking around my point. I said it’s represents a draft blunder that the Jets have drafted only 13 players in 3 years. I beleive they still have 8 of the 13.
I didn’t say anything about player value or ratings. Bottom line, that’s too few players over a 3 year period.
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Also, Rice was the 3rd WR taken in ’85 and, IMO, the team that blundered was the Bengals, who took Eddie Brown at 13. The Bengals faced the 49ers in the Super Bowl and I’m sure Boomer would’ve preferred Rice to Eddie Brown. Moreover, the Bills had a chance to draft him, too…they could’ve chosen Bruce Smith and Jerry Rice in the same round…think Buffalo fans don’t regret that move? And, right before Rice was picked at 16, KC chose Ethan Horton, who only became a decent NFL player when he was converted from RB to TE, and he was either cut or traded to the Raiders after his rookie season. In any event, you could have that draft over and over and the 6-4 Toon would get picked first every time over Brown and Rice…it was only with knowledge of what Rice became that teams would’ve drafted Rice first. Hard to say that’s a blunder. What made O’Brien over Marino or Brady over Sapp blunders was the fact that there was no doubt that Marino and Sapp were better college players, but their alleged “attitudes” and conduct rumors scared the Jets off.
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igs,
Okay, since you’ve made your draft point again, I’ll make my player acquisition point again. There are 5 ways a team acquires players: i) the draft, ii) UFAs, iii) trades, iv) UDFAs, and v) signing them off of other teams’ practice squads or the street. Your point that hoarding draft picks is the best way really isn’t true. Parcells was a great example, he had no qualms about giving up 1st round draft picks to get Curtis Martin and his 1998 team started only 2 rookies or players that he drafted (Fabini and Jason Ferguson). John Hall kicked and Leon Johnson was on specials and was the 3rd down back. By my count 14 of the 22 starters were drafted by other teams and/or signed by Parcells. The important thing is to acquire talented players that can start in the NFL. Where they come from is only relevant for salary cap reasons and there is nothing like signing a UDFA that can play, like DeVito, Brandon Moore and, hopefully, Westerman.
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Bent says: Not to mention all the parts they picked up cheaply and then turned into value in trades…Elam, Ratty, Trusnik, Stuckey cost them a total of one 7th round pick, but significantly reduced the cost of two trades in terms of draft picks, thereby converting into more value, which arguably balances out any “wasted” draft picks.
Anyway, I just wanted to agree with the Toon over Rice comment from Sack. If the Jets picked Rice they would have been ridiculed and (all thing being equal) he would have suffered the same fate as Toon (his numbers were better than Rice for his first three or so seasons, but because the Jets did nothing to protect him, his career was shortened by injuries).
Rice actually was considered a reach by the 49ers at the time. Bill Walsh hadn’t heard of him until he happened to see some highlights of him in an airport by chance (or something like that). By Rice’s own admission, he was surprised to be drafted that high and acknowledged that Toon was the better prospect (and actually one of the better 1st round picks in franchise history).
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Sack,
Parcell traded Keyshawn for like 80 draft picks. Bad example. Every time I make this point I find people talk around it. I say Tanning-Bum has traded away too many draft picks and you hear ‘It’s bad to trade away draft picks.’ I point out that the successful teams don’t move around in the draft too much and tend to stick to draft day trades only once every few years. And you hear, ‘The only way to build the team is through the draft.” It’s like I’m speaking Chinese and you’re replying to me in French. But if there’s one thing that can’t be misconstrued is 13 picks (8 retained) in 3 years is a very bad number.
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Bent,
I also have to disagree with you about Stuckey. I love the Braylon Edwards trade. But the fact is that had the Jets made better personnel decisions in the past it would have been unnecessary. Stuckey will be a slot monster and he should be playing here right next to our marqui WR and old reliable JC. -
igs,
That is your opinion, and believe me we’re all well aware of it. But I’d rather take a higher success rate with fewer players. Most of the players in rounds 4-7 are risks anyway. Why treasure those picks if they can net you a veteran with an accomplished past? We get it. Your Giants are the model of excellence. But they were also god awful earlier this decade. Ever since Tanny has taken over he has been putting together an extremely talented roster in whatever way he could.
The guy learned from possibly the best personnel guy ever, Bill Parcells, that you look for value in the market. When Parcells was with the Jets, that market was showing that veteran players were valued wayyyy more than picks, so he accumulated picks by the boatload. Currently, the market values picks wayyy more than established players (which, in my mind, is absurd) so Tanny uses lesser picks to accumulate veteran talent. That is why he’s a good GM, he goes out and gets what the team needs without crippling it in the long run (which he hasn’t, because if you look at his roster and core players, almost all are in their 20′s.
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Brendan,
That is your opinion and believe me, I’m well aware of it. Another place where we seem to have a language problem – You guys seem to think that drafting players is some kind of crap shoot where you don’t know how this guy is going to turn out. But another habit of successful teams is that they draft the right players with the right attitudes for their specific formula. And they charge themselves with developing that player. it’s not a crap shoot. The Ravens didn’t draft Bart Scott thinking this guy can go either way. They drafted him knowing they could develop him into a good MLB because of what they saw – potential-wise – in his game and attitude. SO Bart Scott, meet Rex Ryan. Brandon Marshall, meet Mike Shanahan. Get my drift? -
Igs,
Thank you for reinforcing my point. Bart Scott wasn’t drafted, at all, by anyone. There were 261 players drafted ahead of him, probably only a handful even on the same level of player that he is. So yes, the draft is a crapshoot, and Bart Scott is exhibit A of why that is.
Everyone thinks great teams great wonderfully year after year. Look at the Pats the past few seasons. Mr. Genius himself, Bill Belicheck, has a spotty draft record at best. They use the other forms of player acquisition to build a team, just like the Jets (heaven forbid!) and while they do accumulate tons of picks, they’re worse than the Jets at drafting the right player.
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*great teams draft wonderfully
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JustAGreenGuy says:
Bart Scott was a UDFA.
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Oh excuse me, I meant Marquis Cholston… no i meant Tom Brady… no I meant Brandon Jacobs… no i meant Ahmad Bradshaw… no I meant Terell Thomas… no I meant Dwight Lowery… no I meant Hines Ward… and did I mention Brandon Marshall was a 4th round pick. There are just as many player starting or contributing today from the mid to late rounds as there are 1st and second rounders. Because I made an error on 1 player doesn’t mean you refuted my point.
btw, don’t worry about the Pats. 3 rings in 5 years? Don’t worry about the Pats. Worry about the Jets.
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igs,
Exactly. The Pats have not drafted well while Belicheck has been in charge, yet they’ve won. How on Earth could they win without pristine draft records?
I get what you’re trying to say by listing those players, but that just agrees with my assessment that the draft is a crapshoot. No one KNOWS anything, they all just HOPE that their picks will work out. They listen to “experts” and look at combine results, and the most important portion of these players’ resume (on-field production) can be overshadowed by 40 times and 40″ verticals.
And that’s the thing, for the first time in over a decade, I’m NOT worried about the Jets. We just lost possibly our 2 most important players on the team, and while this would have put me on suicide watch in more recent years, this year I am confident the team will fight and overcome these setbacks. Because we have a coach that gets the most out of his players and a GM who gets the players that coach wants.
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SackDance is 100% right. There are several different ways to acquire players, it doesnt matter how you get them as long as you build a winning football team.
The “Tannenbaum trades away too many picks” discussion is getting old and boring.
Igs,
you always defend the draft, and said “respect the draft” regarding Ted Ginn Jr. Well, Ginn is an absolute bust, was a reach in the draft, and has fallen out of favor in Miami. You cant decisively say any method is better than another, because teams have had success building teams in all different ways.
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I’d say Tom Brady was a pretty good draft pick. Richard Seymor, the nose tackle – i forget his name, Deion Branch.
See there’s that language thing again. Again, I’m saying that the draft is NOT a crap shoot. Because I feel like the teamss that win do know what a guy can do and can get quality within all 7 rounds. And the teams that don’t win are the ones that draft players and ‘hope they work out’.
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Okay JesusRevis. Now back your point up. Name me a team that has drafted a 15 players or less and went to the conference championships or beyond within 3 years.
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Igs,
That would take me way too much time and research to find out. I am at work, and they do not pay me to argue with you. There are plenty of teams who have won super bowls relying on free agent acquisitions and trades. This hole argument is just useless.
Theres a clear cut difference between a team like the Redskins trading away a 2nd round pick for Jason Taylor to play 1 season on a non-playoff team, and the Jets trading away a 3rd and a 5th for a 26 years old Braylon Edwards, who should be a major contributor for years. That’s what you dont understand.
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Igs,
Here’s a list for you: Adrian Klemm, JR Redmond, Brock Williams, Ben Watson, Marquise Hill, Guss Scott, Ellis Hobbs, Laurence Maroney, Chad jackson, David Thomas, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O’Connell.
Those are players, drafted in the first 3 rounds, since 2000. Of all those players, three are still with the team (Watson, Maroney, Wheatley). Watson was taken in the first round, absolutely drafted too soon. Maroney was also a first round pick, and has not lived up to a first round billing, to put it nicely. Wheatley was taken in the 2nd round and currently has a whopping 1 tackle on the season. The rest are gone.
Crapshoot? I think so.
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Bent says:
igs – My point about Stuckey was not that it was a good move to trade him, but that he only cost a 7th rounder, yet his value in that trade was much better than a 7th rounder, so the Jets did a good job of obtaining value from that pick (and from the other examples that were UDFAs). The Jets got Braylon for a 3rd and a 5th, plus two players. Without the two players, his value was at least a 2nd rounder, everyone agreed. According to the draft value chart, the difference between a second rounder and a 3rd rounder is 3 fourth rounders!
I was sorry to see him go too (you may recall I was a constant supporter of him ever since he was drafted), but he does represent an example of Tannenbaum obtaining value from his assets.
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lgs – what I don’t get about your argument is: you mentioned Tom Brady like the pats made such a smart move drafting him. They picked him in the 6th round, clearly they didn’t think he’d become what he has or they would have drafted him much sooner. They got lucky. We drafted Brooks Bollinger in the 6th round, we didn’t get so lucky. How many players per team per draft actually work out and become starters/contributors? If you count the Jets UDFAs, I think they’re doing fine in recent years (also counting players whom draft picks were traded for, of course).
Again, hear it in French, Japanese, Swahili, whatever language you like: the point is, the quality of the players on the team is what matters, not how you get them. I’ll gladly take less draft picks for quality (mostly) young players and a team that has a decent shot of making the playoffs.
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Sorry, hit submit too early.
Add to that list Bethel Johnson and Dan Klecko. That makes 15 players out of 24 picks in rounds 1-3 for the Pats from 2000-2008. I didn’t count 2009 because it’s obviously too early to have any gauge on those players.
So Belichick’s success rate in rounds 1-3 is a whopping 37.5%. So how exactly do they win superbowls when their draft picks fail so often? It’s because they when they hit, they hit big time (like the Jets currently do) and they acquire players from avenues other than the draft.
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subwayfare says:
“successful teams don’t move around in the draft too much and tend to stick to draft day trades only once every few years.” Wouldn’t this also apply to many unsuccessful teams?
I agree in principle with shading the roster building more towards the draft, but it by no means insures success. The exact formula is elusive to the majority of NFL teams.
I would like to see the Jets begin to draft more players going forward, now that there’s a solid core, but I certainly don’t see MIke T’s recent filling of gaping talent holes as being egregiously destructive to the future. He can’t even begin to compete with Dan Snyder and Al Davis on that stage.
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Bent says:
“There are just as many player starting or contributing today from the mid to late rounds as there are 1st and second rounders.”
Maybe that’s true (it sounds like a stretch), but there are three times as many people in the mid to late rounds, so as a percentage, the lower picks have a much greater chance of NOT contributing than the earlier picks.
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Brendan,
You’re a numbers guy, most of you are, and the Pats are built around winning as a whole. i expect we’ll be seeing them doing some damage soon. I do think they moved back too much in this draft. But overall, it takes the right tide for thing to come together and make a run. But the players have to be there. All teams of course acquire picks in a number of ways, of course the Pats have too. I find it funny that I say we do one thing too much and you say I think doing that is wrong but okay.
Also the never overvalue a player with extra draft picks. They may draft a guy high, like Mayo, but they have way more than 1 picks in the last 3 years for a reason.Bent,
It’s not a stretch. You can actually go through each team player by player, especially the winning teams, you’ll find a good balance of contributing players representing every round of the draft and UFA/UDFAs. Giants and Steelers would perfect examples.Bent,
My point was that Stuckey had an even greater value as a player on this team, that was drafted by this team, who could contribute greatly next to the marquee WR The Jets should have gotten their hands on within the past 3 years. SO good value as trade bait. Better value actually contributing with the proper players around him.NYC,
My point about Brady is that if the Pats didn’t value the pick and traded it away in the draft to raise their round 3 status, they wouldn’t have a Tom Brady.Subway,
You can’t take into account all the other things that make a team lose. I.e. you got the AL Davis and Dan SNyder type teams. You got the great teams where a QB gets hurt, bad coaching, etc. But I can prove with numbers that the teams that have gone have drafted and retained a high amount of players. -
Bent,
If its not too much to ask, do you know the exact details of the Lito Sheppard trade? As far as what the Jets have to give up, based on playing time, if they re-sign him or not. And the possibility of a $10 million roster bonus.
Thanks
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Igs,
I’m actually not a numbers guy at all, but you wanted to list players, so i made a list of my own. You said it yourself “the players have to be there”. Who cares where they come from. Players come to a team a variety of ways, no one way more important/better than the next. Who has 1 pick the last 3 years? I don’t even know what point you’re trying to make.
How about you give the “build through the draft” talk a rest and realize that it’s a case-by-case basis. What works for the Pats doesn’t work for everyone else, because if it did every team would be the same. The Jets have their way of doing things, Tann’ys way, and it seems to me and the majority of people on this board that it is, overall, seemingly the right way.
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Actually Brendan it does matter. your draft picks are your guys. Thats your core. They hold your philosophy. They play your game. They come up together in your system and they form the core of your system. Lower round layers need to either ascend to starters over time or provide valuable backups. Yada yada. There’s a lot of ways to build a team. The first is the draft. Everything else just supplements that. When this is not the case you have the Dan Snyders of the world and of course, a team that has always undervalued draft picks in the post-parcells era, the New York Jets.
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lgs – I just find it funny that you accuse the rest of us of not hearing what you are trying to say, but you miss people’s points left and right. You certainly have the right not to agree with what any of us are saying, but it’s just the pot calling the kettle black when you act like WE aren’t following what YOU are saying.
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I don’t understand. what point did I not address?
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lgs – but the draft isn’t the 1st way (except in your narrow world) it’s just one way. Like it or not, what you believe isn’t the only way to build a team. And I don’t care how many picks we’ve had (and by the way you should add Thomas Jones to that list), what I care about is how many of the picks that we have had stay and contribute. Quantity does not always equal quality.
Anyway, I’m done. Agree to disagree (or not) and move on. -
What I said above is what you did not address: that it’s the quality of the players, not how you got them, that matters. You gave a spiel about you draft your guys, blah, blah, blah. Calvin Pace, Kris Jenkins, Bart Scott, Alan Faneca, Damien Woody, etc all seems like Ryan guys to me, even though none were drafted here. Even Braylon Edwards said he could see finishing his career here if things stay like they are (I assume he meant the CS, but I could be wrong).
Anyway, now I’m really done, but fire away as you wish.
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NYC,
Thomas Jones is not a draft pick. And at this point I’m sure you must be pretty desensitized. You probably don’t even remember what a Lombardi trophy looks like. You can dispute me all you want. But at the end of the day, bottom line, teams that go, draft and retain a high amount of draft picks. The #1 thing is drafting good. But depth is part of drafting good and the Jets have 0 depth. Bottom line. Prove me wrong. I’m begging you. And please show me a team that has drafted 13 picks in 3 years and even made the SB within the next 3. Hasn’t happened. -
You guys are all falling into the trap. Igs is a troll and most likely a Giant fan. Dont waste your time
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NYC,
My point is that a good drafting team has both. If you feel you gotta bet the huse to get a marquee player in the draft, no ptions, then you’re a team that has been sorely mismanaged and is very far away from a Superbowl. -
Dylan says:
The Jets have a great mix of draft picks and players they have acquired in free agency. Just take a look the contributers on offense.
Draft Picks: Mark Sanchez, Jerricho Cotchery, Brad Smith, Dustin Keller, Leon Washington, Shonn Greene, Nick Mangold, and D-Brick.
Free Agents/Waivers: David Clowney, Danny Woodhead, Damien Woody, Brandon Moore, and Alan Faneca.
Trades: Thomas Jones, and Braylon Edwards.
As you can see most of our offensive contributers were players we drafted. Brandon Moore and Danny Woodhead were both undrafted free agents, and Clowney was only around 22 when we signed him from the Packers practice squad. The Jets have a great core of young players, most of whom were acquired through free agency.
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JesusRevis, couldn’t prove it could you? Don’t get sent to the kids table again.
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Really? The core is only created through the draft? You can create a core however you want. Players don’t need to ‘grow up’ together to be a part of the team. Bart Scott has already gone full board into the Jets/Fins rivalry, and he’s been here only a few months. And if you want to be realistic, our core IS through the draft.
Sanchez, Greene, Keller, D’Brick, Mangold, Cotchery, Moore, Leon.
Harris, Rhodes, Revis, B.Thomas, Ellis, Lowery.Then guys like Brad Smith, Wallace Wright, Eric Smith and depth players that contribute.
Our core is home-grown my friend. Tanny went out and got some gifted Vets to mix with our own young stars and we now have a special blend of old and young talent.
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Dylan, the point is the cost. I’m not saying that eventually this team doesn’t come together. I’m saying that 13 draft picks in 3 years is a bad thing.
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lgs – I may be desensitized, but anyone with a brain should realize that the reason I mentioned TJ is because we traded a 2nd round pick to get him, i.e. he was our de facto 2nd round pick in that draft. Not brain surgery, is it?
As far as proving you wrong, you must be nuts. You go back and look at the draft records of all teams that made the SB and YOU show ME how many draft picks they have and more importantly, how many of those made the team and contributed. Tanny has drafted a lot of stars in 3 years. Dispute that.
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Bent says:
igs – I don’t disagree with either of your comments to me above, but they don’t refute the points I was making either.
I always enjoy this debate because there is no right answer and infinite different ways of looking at it. The outcome is always going to be agree-to-disagree. Even in five or ten years time (I wonder if we’ll all still be interacting?) it will probably be possible to argue both that it was the right approach and that it was the wrong approach, whatever happens!
JR – I’m going to be lazy and cut and paste from when the last person asked me this. I hope this gives you all you need. I think they’ll tear up the extension and try to re-negotiate with him and obviously he’s not going to hit the 85% snaps target but I’m not sure that even matters. Here’s the cut/paste:
http://www.thejetsblog.com/2009/03/03/the-lito-sheppard-trade-a-work-of-art/
This (and the comments after it) should remind you of the situation. The Jets have great flexibility and I’m sure they won’t give up a 2nd rounder unless Lito has a terrific year…in which case, they’ll be happy to.
Retaining him is one of the conditions of that 2nd rounder. The other is that he plays in 85% of defensive snaps.
If he does have a good year (and assuming he meets the 85% condition), they can release him and come up with a new contract to retain the 2nd rounder and give up a 3rd or 4th instead (but this would give other teams a shot at signing him).
If he doesn’t meet the 85% condition, but still has a good year and they don’t want him to hit the open market, they could retain him and restructure the option bonus so that it can be spread over 4 years. The 2nd rounder wouldn’t apply in this case.
If he has a GREAT year and meets the 85% requirement, I’m sure they won’t let him hit the open market, so they will just eat the 2nd rounder (although I’d still expect them to spread the option bonus).
A lot depends on the CBA too.
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Couldnt prove what?
That youre annoying? immature? short sighted? ignorant?
…I could go on for days
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Thanks Bent, youre the best
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Dylan, you can’t sight Jets FAs yet, as the jets haven’t done jack**** this season. But you can see my remark to Dylan.
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Bent says:
To add to the above, now that they added Braylon and gave up a 3 and a 5, if the Jets are required to give a 3 to the Eagles, they’d instead have to give them a 2 (which will never happen). Similarly, if they retain him without meeting the 85% clause, the 5 that it would cost them would graduate to a 4 (which will also probably never happen).
As with the Vilma/Shockey situation, you can preserve a pick by not signing the extension and instead negotiating a new extension (even if it’s effectively identical).
Hope that covers all you need.
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igs,
Its not a bad thing when nearly all of them are contributing at some level. If we had kept our picks we wouldn’t have nearly as good a team as we do now. How bout Jenks, Sanchise, Greene, Harris, Revis, Jones, Pace, Edwards, Lito, and Strickland. You cant honestly tell me you would rather have 10 or 15 mid to late round picks. -
Wow, I like how Revis just gets to spew all these names at me. But whatever, you obviously have no life outside of your TV and your twinkies. 13 picks, 3 years, bad thing.
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All of them were acquired by moving around picks…
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Wah Wah Wah Wah
Lets have the Jetsblog sponsor a boxing match between me and Igs.
We can use the money raised for a charity of sorts
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revis, you wouldn’t last. the friction from your thighs rubbing together would set your tights on fire.
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Hahaha. Good stuff Igs, you always keep me laughing
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NYC,
Sorry, I didn’t see your posts. But I think the Giants and Steelers have drafted their fair share of stars over the years. Justin Tuck and osi Umeinyora in the 2nd round anyone? -
As far as me going through the statstics, I have, that’s why I make my point. Teams that don’t draft with a good balance of contributers and numbers barely make the conference and flat out never make the SB. Good things will happen for the Jets, but it has come at a great cost tot he tea is all im saying.
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Pete57 says:
Earlier in this post, didn’t igs ask for a team that made it to a championship game that has alot of free agents, UDFA’s, etc? The Az Cardinals last year are a pretty good example.
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Don’t even bother, Pete. igs has selective vision, so he’ll pick out things he wants to harp on, but leave most of your posts out.
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Phony bologna
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Bent says:
I figured it would be impossible to find any examples of teams that made 13 picks in 3 years. However, I searched around for a bit and this is what I came up with. None of this proves anything either way, I just wanted to share what I found out.
For a start, you can rule out any year before 1994 because the draft went 12 rounds back then, so no team was going to ever have an average of anywhere close to 4 picks per year.
Free agency came in at the same time, as did compensatory picks. Since that time, although teams start with 7 picks, they actually average 8 picks. So, on average, each team gets one compensatory pick per year (or three over a three year period). The Jets happened to not have any in any of them three years, so they “wasted” 8 of 21 picks, whereas another team (on average) would have to “waste” 11 picks over a three year span to get to 13. I put wasted in inverticommas because they did convert those picks into value.
In terms of compensatory picks, they did get the maximum compensation (a 3rd rounder – Eric Smith) in 2006 and they have comfortably more UFA losses than additions this year so will definitely get bonus picks in 2010. It is rare for a team that isn’t spending every year (the Jets were clearing cap room until 2008) to not have any compensatory picks.
I tried to find one anyway and I basically couldn’t (not that I looked all that hard). So, I can’t find a team that only had 13 picks in 3 years and still reached the championship game but I can’t find one that failed to either. There’s nothing to say it’s definitely a bad plan.
Having said that, I did stumble across the following facts:
- Fewest picks between 2002-2006 was the Redskins. No argument here, they have been poorly managed, although I think the differences between Snyder and Tannenbaum’s approaches have been pointed out.
- Miami was next, followed by Atlanta and Minnesota. Atlanta did go to the NFC championship game. Minnesota did win a division title.
- Tennessee had the most, followed by SF and StL. Again, three teams that didn’t go to the Superbowl in that span (but then if you’re preaching balance, perhaps you’d expect that). Tennessee did go to the AFC title game in 2002 and SF did win a division title.
- 4th fewest picks over the last 4 years is apparently the Saints…who could be on their way to a perfect season, if the media hype is to be believed.
- The closest I could find to 13 in 3 years was the 49ers from 1995-1997 who had 14 picks. In those three years, they were 36-12 in the regular season and lost to the Packers in the playoffs three straight times (twice in the divisional playoffs and then in the 1997 NFC Title game, which they probably would have won if they didn’t lose Jerry Rice and Garrison Hearst to injury). Not too shabby, although admittedly they were already the Superbowl champions before that three year period and the Jets at the end of the 2006 season, um, were not.
Using the number of picks is kind of a misnomer. Instead you would need to consider value and the Jets draft picks, in total would be as valuable as most other teams because they traded up to obtain picks of higher value. They went for quality over quantity, perhaps figuring their depth throughout the team was better than thought because of the emerging youngsters like Clowney, Devito, Pitoitua and Turner. It’s definitely a risky strategy, that I didn’t like much at the time.
It seems having so few picks over a 3 year period is pretty much unprecedented, but that doesn’t necessarily guarantee success or failure. At least the Jets (a) have some cap flexibility, (b) should have at least six picks next year, (c) do have some youthful talent on the team that they didn’t draft and (d) have a relatively high success rate with the guys they moved up for.
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Hey Bent, I’m sorry I didn’t catch this reply earlier. But thanks a lot for the insight. You make good points. I’m going to bring some research to the conversation when I have some time. I think one way of looking at this issue is to look at the amount of picks of the teams that have made it in the last few seasons, say… the last 10 years.
Steelers-24
Cardinals -20
Giants – 23
Patriots-28And so forth. (I’m at work right now.)
I think it will show that the teams that are able to keep dominate franchises draft a lot of players, put a premium on making smart draft choices, and have fair to great development programs.
In all this one of the frustrating things is that guys think I’m hating on the Jets. But if you can accept that the Jets have a strong history of losing, then you have to start to take a look at what the long term habits of this franchise has been. I think the Jets have a good foundation now. I think they have still shown to have some bad habits.
Lol but I dont think its as bad as when the Jets fans were chanting “we want Sapp”