Link: The Gholston Effect
JP Pelzman writes that the Gholston has been something of a “elephant in the room” for the Jets coaching staff. Using his activation over Murrell, who is a solid special teamer as his central point. Pelzman outlines that Gholston … just isn’t measuring up.
Ryan and linebacker Bart Scott, the two most loquacious people in green and white, promised Monday that they have no intention of lowering the volume. That’s OK, but perhaps Ryan needs to be a bit more judicious with some of the words he uses Sunday, specifically when choosing the team’s inactives.
Linebacker Marques Murrell, one of the Jets’ best special-teams players, was a healthy scratch Sunday, while Vernon Gholston was again active. Gholston has 12 tackles on defense this year, and one tackle on special teams, while Murrell has eight special-teams tackles. Gholston has only four tackles since Calvin Pace returned from suspension.
When asked why Gholston was up instead of Murrell, special-teams coordinator Mike Westhoff said, “That’s a good question. You’d have to ask the defense that, to tell you the truth.”
It’s understandable that the Jets would want to get a return on their $21 million investment of guaranteed money in Gholston, the sixth overall draft pick in 2008, but they also must think about the bottom line of winning down the stretch, now that they are in a playoff battle. And if Murrell or someone else gives them a better chance to win that day than Gholston, then that decision must be made – no matter how it looks publicly or how it hurts in the wallet.
Ryan said that he was going to play the guy who was drafted highly, no question, and he’s done that … with Gholston and this year’s #1 .. Mark Sanchez. No one’s going to argue at this point that Gholston’s seems like he’s tracking right along with a player like DeMarcus Ware. It’s been a season and a half, and he’s not really been much of a factor from a “splash” statistic perspective. Still he’s making contributions, more than he ever did in 2008.
I’m sure you’ve noticed it too, but the Jets are actually lining up Gholston at Nose and Tackle on sub-package passing situations, and it’s working, in terms of getting blockers focused on him and not other players. Gholston is winning some battles on interior lineman just bullrushing and making teams double or at least have a second lineman keep an eye on him once he finishes his assignment. Now, do you pay $21 million for a warm body? No, I don’t think that’s the answer either, but it’s not like you can just look at his tackles or sacks and say that’s the sum of all the effect he’s making on this team.
After the debacle on special teams this past week, I don’t care how much Gholston is getting. The guy is a bust. His “contributions” on defense in no way measure up to what the team lost by not playing Murrell. They have to get Murrell back in the lineup, particularly if Brad Smith is still banged up. And who knows, there’s no way Murrell could play any worse than Gholston on defense.
i dont take westy’s comments at all as a slap to VG. sure, murrell is a better special teams player, but if woodhead had maintained outside contain, feeley and wright had taken better angles, and any one of 5 players could have wrapped up this would be a non-issue. if the players on the field would have executed, this would be an non issue. i think its impossible to say that with murrell active, we dont give up those TDs
you have to win all 3 phases of the game. but a player who can play 20-30 snaps on D is more valuable than someone playing 10-15 special teams plays. the whole salary / draft pick is irrelevant in my mind
Murrell was scratched from the line up because of the punch thrown in the Oakland game.
You are really grasping at straws by saying olson’s making an “impact” by forcing OL’s to focus a second defender on him, etc. He has been, to this point, an unmitigated bust.
I understand the Jets not being in a rush to give up on him due to the investment in him, but at the end of the day not only has he not contributed, but he’s actually been a detriment to the defense – often out of position.
Wasn’t Murrell scratched from the Oakland game for throwing that punch in the Buffalo game?
i know Bent has stats and tells me that Gholston has played the run so well this year and he is taking on double teams and so on….but the fact is he isnt playing the run “that” well and any other OLB on our roster can do what he does and play much better on special teams that he has.
Not to mention that Murrell and Westerman can get to the QB be more the VG does.
i am not pulling the plug on VG yet but he is not a valued member on this team and is a zero on specials.
Murrell was out from the oakland game Mo dog
Every organization goes thru this with 1st round players that suck…. They keep trying to find a way to utilize the player without exposing his flaws.
It has become very difficult to hide what Gholsten’s flaws are unless you do what Mangini did last year and not play him. He is a strong guy who takes on blocks….you can find undrafted free agents that can do that and play well on specials to boot. He was drafted to passrush which he has failed at miserably.
i wanted him even though I thought he was overrated at OSU but can not believe how low his football IQ is andf or a guy who is so gifted athetically is as fluid as a turtle.
The Jets should have drafted Leodis McKelvin, Sedrick Ellis, or traded down for Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie or Aqib Talib. This Gholston pick is going to sting for a while.
Drew I think your comment is unfair to Turtles.
How about moving VG to FB? We know how strong he is and he might be better suited at that position at this point.
- LOL
Well played JAGG….well played. lol
The GHOST is no better than a free agent. Combine numbers do not make a player, you have to want to kill people, he actually looks like he avoids contact.
No need to sugar coat it, if not for the $$ he would be long gone.
I agree Cabras,
Anyone notice how Gholston never attempts to hit anybody? Or when the Jets defense is gang tackling he doesnt even want to geti nvolved? ro after a big 3rd down sack he doesnt even celebrate with his teammates? It has become clear to me that this guy does not love football. The talent is there, but the passion is missing.
I made this point when people were convince he was going to be S Merriman. he was a drag down tackler in college and never ran thru the QB or the ball carrier….. he usses he speed to get the ball and then slows down.
The Jay Culter play from last year is an example of VG’s style of play…. he can get there but rarely finshes at this level.
Go look at his college “highlight” film. I bet you there is a ton of drag down tackles zero expolsion hits…i watched him do this for 2 years.
NEXT YEAR IM BEING VERNON GHOLSTON FOR HALLOWEEN
JesusRevis, “hindsight is 20/20″ so it’s hard to play that game of who we should have drafted. Look at it this way though: the top three defensive picks from ‘08 (Long and Dorsey being the other two) are doing terribly in their second years. Ellis and Harvey haven’t looked great either.
Drew, when you said that my first thought was Turtle from Entourage. Funny image.
Drew,
i’ve seen him follow through some real hard hits, but even those were just a result of his superior power and strength. He doesn’t go hard, lets just put it that way
Eastside,
My point was made made in hindsight. Before that draft I wanted McFadden, but I would have settled for either of the Longs. All I was saying is, looking back, those guys would have been better picks. Sedrick Ellis may not be a dominating player, but hes a key player on the Saints defense and the Jets would be much better off with him playing some D-End then they are with Gholston attempting to play OLB
Eastside…
Its a coin toss who is more fluid. I would say my order would be:
1 – Turlte from Entourage
2 – An actual Turtle
3 – Vernon Gholston
With a stick nipping at Gholston’s heels to get into the top 3.
I never wanted VG, but I can’t blame the Jets for giving him a full season. That’s the problem with high draft picks. You spend so much money for them that you are forced to play them to see whether they can ever earn the money or not. Like I’ve said before, VG lacks almost all of the football moves that I would expect for an outside pass rusher and he was drafted to pass rush and play the WILL.
Unfortunately, VG can’t play the WILL, so Rex is trying to see where he can play to evaluate how he can be, at least, a productive player. Like it or not, VG will continue to hamstring the Jets until he can be cut without a huge cap hit and, it seems to me, that it’s not a question if he will be cut, but when.
BTW, VG was an all-state OG. Maybe he can put on 50 lbs and replace Faneca.
I actually think the FB idea isnt that crazy. Try letting VG block on goal line situations.
Unfortunately, the guy is just a total idiot. He doesn’t have the brain capacity to play football. He is a big sack of crap.
It is too bad, because the Jets could use a versatile OLB…did anyone see BT chasing Joey Haynos for the Dolphins’ TD. I mean it was Joey Frickin’ Haynos, not Dallas Clark, Ben Watson or Tony Gonzalez, all of whom we’ll have the pleasure of seeing over the next 8 weeks. It goes without saying that the D has to cover the TE better.
Bryan Thomas couldn’t cover his own bed with a blanket.
In all honesty, I was petrified of him leading up to the draft. I wanted Rivers from USC or Mayo, knowing Mayo was an ILB and thought Rivers could be a OLB.
Players that need to go this offseason ;
Bryan Thomas, Larry Izzo, Ben Hartstock
Contracts that need re-structuring ;
Vernon Gholston, Kerry Rhodes, Kris Jenkins, Shaun Ellis, Alan Faneca
What we need next year ;
LG, NT, DE, S, CB, RT
Kyle,
The Jets will no re-structure Rhodes’ contract.
Also, im curious as to why you suggested we need a Safety. I think Rhodes, Leonhard, and Smith are a very good trio
Kyle,
I like Robert Turner a lot. Every time he’s in, the Jets’ running game doesn’t skip a beat and we don’t know how Slauson is, so I think LG is okay. I agree on RT, Hunter doesn’t thrill me and getting a productive RT with a mid- or late-draft pick (or even UDFA, cap casualty or practice squad) is doable.
I disagree on the secondary. The Jets have enough depth at secondary, so I wouldn’t call the secondary a need. I still want to see how guys like Cole, Dig and and E. Smith mature in Rex’s system.
NT/DE or just DL (because of the way Rex uses them, I’m not sure labels matters) is, IMO, the no. 1 need. Problem is that getting a flat out stud is tough to do after the 15th pick in the 1st round.
How about OLB/DE hybrid? To me, where the Jets will likely pick, there should be a DE/OLB hybrid that can rush the passer available. A healthy Jenks, improvement from DeVito, Pouha and even Pitoitua and I can live with the DL, but a threat on the edge would make the entire defense better. Again, that’s why Gholston being a bust has set the Jets back. The blitz works a lot better when 4 guys rushing already put pressure on the QB, the 5th guy can come in clean. Now, teams anticipate and pick up the 5th guy too often.
We have all become complacent with the secondary. Revis is the best corner in football– outside of him, the secondary sucks. Remember when Kerry Rhodes was the most underated defensive player in football? Now he is the most overrated. The safeties have made ZERO impact plays this year, both Leonard and Rhodes. The Raven’s D was so good becuase they had playmakers to clean up what the D line left them, quick and inaccurate passes. This secondary has done nothing of the sort. Revamp everything.
The annual right of Jets fans– NFL Draft.
Terrence Cody and Taylor Mays should be targets. The Jets need OL and DL depth, and safety.
Everybody know we need to upgrade out OL/DL depth. We are not that far from a complete team
The Kerry Rhodes hatered still confuses me. the guy has not played badly. Plus our secondary has rarely been the problem for our losses.
T Mays is a stud and he and Berry from Tenn will probably go early in the draft. If we are in the middle to bottom half we couldnt get either anyway.
I would always draft best available passrusher….every year
They Chose Me,
I disagree with you, but even so, the Jets are not going to revamp their secondary.
I would love Taylor Mays, but are the Jets really going to use their first round pick on a position that is not a true need? I mean, we have 2 good starters at safety, and some nice depth. There are much more pressing needs than safety.
If the Jets were smart they would get Terrence Cody.
With the Jets core pretty much set offensively (Sanchez, Greene, Washington, Ferguson, Mangold, Cotchery, Edwards, Keller), I’d expect them to put the emphasis on defense, not only in this years draft, but also future drafts. I agree with Drew about drafting pass rushers, plus the Jets are in a position to take best player available, who will most likely be a pass rusher.
I suspect that fans defend Ghost, because they feel that he’ll be a late bloomer like James Farrior was. The difference between the two is that Farrior showed signs of greatness when he was part of this community. Ghost looks like a deer caught in headlights whenever he’s out there.
Ryan has to decide whether it’s worth playing him a lot down the stretch during our bye. He promised before the season that he was going to play him and he did, but our playoffs hopes are on the line now. Ghost has to sit some in our final eight games. I see no reason to play him more than the speedy Murrell and continue to impede the development of Westerman, the player he showered with love the most on the team in the offseason.
JetFanINLA wrote: “NEXT YEAR IM BEING VERNON GHOLSTON FOR HALLOWEEN”
LOL!
At this point it’s clear that VG was a bad draft choice. Even if he develops into a decent player (not likely, but he is more than a year younger than both Murrell and Westerman so who knows). You don’t spend he 6th pick in the draft on a guy who takes 3 or 4 years to become decent. It was a mistake, pure and simple. At least Mangini made up for it by doing the Sanchez and Edwards deals. All in all, Mangini’s decisions over the last couple of years have made the Jets a better team.
the financials of VGs contract make him uncuttable / tradeable through at least the end of 2010 and more likely 2011. we can complain about his lack of production, but the fact is we are stuck with him and we need to get over it.
i may be taking the glass half full approach but he is still just 23. he doesnt seem to have that killer mentality that a good pash rusher must have, but i am hoping he can learn to be a solid player. it is not impossible to improve / acquire a good football IQ. what is impossible is to be 6-3 265 and run a 4.5 40 if you are not born with those gifts.
if we are stuck paying him his guaranteed salary we might as well see what he can do. i would have no problem trying him out at TE or FB. take a shot, what do we have to lose?
more realistically, i think that if he does not show any progress at rushing the passer, they make him gain 20 lbs and play DE. he is surprising good against the run and occupying blockers. that is a far cry from what the expectations of him were being drafted at 6, but you have to find a way to get production out of him.
Yeah, the simple sollution is to trade him to Mangini before Mangini gets fired maybe we can get Trusnick back !
I agree with those that see VG as a bust. He has a low football IQ and lacks aggression. As I said before he’ll washout when it benefits the Jet’s salary cap, if not sooner.
I dont think its hatred for Rhodes, but he has provided no dynamic plays since his strip sacks in buffallo two years ago!
I know it takes time, look at the Giants superbowl team– they were terrible on D for four weeks at the start– but with a defense that provides pressure like this defense, to have no dynamic plays this deep into the season from the safety position is an issue. The pass D has been solid as a whole, but the success of the Ravens D was the plays of the secondary once the pressure was brought.
I would upgrade up front first, and maybe Mays is a reach, but I dont think we can be complacent in the secondary.
I think its almost time to write him off for good. When a special teams coach says a guy cant play specials its usually a sign that they simply can not do anything.
Can we put Rhodes on Special Teams? Maybe with Gholston’s speed we can have him try out for safety . Couldn’t be as bad as Hollywood. How about we trade Rhodes and Gholston to Oakland for Shane Lechler. Our D would be awesome with his punts.
Our Offense Line needs depth, that is where I hope we draft next year.
The Rhodes bashing is getting out of hand. All of you bashing Rhodes are probably the same people who will be crying when we have a different safety back there who cant cover. I suppose you want an all-pro at every single position right? Rhodes is an excellent safety, quit whining.
im not one that is bashing rhodes, but i think criticism of him is fair game. simply put, he is not having a good year.
if he was the best cover safety in the league, he would have more than 4 passes defended. dwight lowery has 5 and has probably played 40% less snaps than rhodes. and i dont buy the argument that teams are not throwing his way. we already have one side of the field that teams are avoiding. its not like they are only throwning to lito’s / lowery’s 1/3 of the field
i cant think of ONE single big play he has made this year. i can name 2 terrible plays off the top of my head: him letting ted ginn getting behind him in the 1st miami game, and taking a terrible angle on lee evans in the buffalo game (play that would cost us the game)
look – would i rather have him over most safeties in the league? sure. but he is not playing at an elite level. not to mention he is one of the highest paid players on the team. he needs to step up
Thats more than fair. But there is a big difference between being disapointed with his production and acting like he is horrible.
I want to see some more big plays from him too, but when I watch other NFL teams, and I see their safetys giving up big plays all day, Im thankful that we have Kerry Rhodes.
i agree – and part of it could be rhodes learning rex’s system and how to coexist with leonhard. he has been excellent in run support. i would just like to see his ball-hawking skills be let loose
BRIAN311 u hit it on the head. i said the same thing . rhodes aint did squat this year . hadnt heard his name once in a positive moment. maybe they need to blitz him over jim the nobody leonhard. westerman has to get a chance sometime guys whats goin on? i like Pouha he played well and maybe the reason why the wildcat looked funny sunday. keep ur eyes on him. maybe donald stricklland should start over lito and lowery cause when he is not injured he is the second best defence in the secondary. miami is the the more disiplined team btween us guys and it showed rex thought he can bully guys around but ended up looking like the bullied. as of next year we need a nose tackle from the draft and end from FA. no projects im alkin bout a certifieid qb killer. fanaca is down to his last days gentleman hes almost done and its sad cause he looks like a shell of himself. brian thomas is a joke. i literally almost forgot he was on the team untill i read a post on nyjets.com about what he has/hasnt done this year and im not joking. brian shotty needs to be put in the “bull in the ring” and if anybody here has played football knows what im talking about .
should never have traded Trusnik …. he will probably be a better pro than Gholstink will ever be. Trusnik plays with heart, passion and desire characteristics Gholston knows nothing about
I agree that Rhodes and Faneca have been underperforming their contracts, Does anyone know their cap hit in coming years if their play should drop with age? Are they cuttable?
Having said that I have plenty of faith in rhodes improving over the next oouple of years- people forget that he’s in a new system, and the pass defense overall has been good. He does deserve some criticism, though- no big plays and he is often the one arriving a second late, not just completely avoided.
Maybe VG should be converted to a blocking TE….:) an expensive one…I bet he can hold as good as Hartstock…Hard co.ck..Heartstop…whatever his name is :P
K. Rhodes in not the issue here. The thread is about Gholston who will be cut as soon as we can afford the cap hit and who will never earn another NFL contract in his lifetime. Please do not compare him to D. Ware or even Farrior. Lets just acknowledge it and move on.
Priortiy next year has to be a natural/speed pass-rusher. We do not have one currently on our roster and have not had one since J. Abe was here.
Why not just sit woodhead now that most of our injured recivers are back .
I like to call him Fartsock for the way he stinks it up out there….
As for Faneca, Rhodes, Gholston these guys all need to play better this year. We can talk all we want about needs/wants for next year’s draft (G, RT, CB, OLB/DE) but we still are 4-4 and in the thick of things. I know it sucks to lose 4/5 but there’s no reason to be sure some of these other “good” teams we need to catch to get a WC berth won’t go into a skid of their own.
Cincinnati for instance is a solid team, but certainly capable of an implosion and we know for sure that Houston is capable of coming back to the pack.
If the Jets come out of the bye week after some self scouting and re-focused on execution instead of trashtalking 7-1 or 8-0 is possible in the second half. Then agains 2-6 is also possible. I guess my point is there is still a lot to play for this year.
Finally, does anyone think they might not re-sign Leon to a big contract? They were trying to trade up for Harvin and now that he’s been injured there’s no telling if Leon will be back a step slower or less explosive…..I know that we can keep him for sure next year but is it possible that the Jets might be planning for a future w/out LW in the same way SD seems to be planning for life after Merriman? Speaking of which, there’s a guy who can get after the QB and could benefit from a change of scenery. If healthy I’d love to see him in green and white
i hear what everyone is saying about gholston and thats why i think the should trade him to the browns and get some draft picks for him and then we could get a better linebacker
and someone above said in reference to VG if you can’t play specials you can’t really be expected to be able to play elsewhere…. assuming that’s true, can we please send Woodhead back to the practice squad now? I know some people have mentioned it, but I’d bet that if it were Hartsock or Gholston who lost contain twice on TD’s there’d be huge outrage on this blog….Woodhead gets a few mentions but bottom line is this guy is no Wayne Chrebet…. the sooner everyone accepts that the better
It was rocket science. The 2008 draft was a five-player draft and we had the sixth pick.
Gholston was the best of whatever unknown qualities were around. He was known as a boom or bust player, and it was probably apparent from his first couple of practices that he was more of the bust type.
Plus, is my memory foggy, or did Gholston not even show up at the draft for fear he would drop like a stone?
Thank you for backing this up- Rhodes is a good football player, but is not living up to his contract, nor is he making any plays. The defense is BUILT for him to make plays– they stop the run, and pressure the QB. It is built for sacks or for the secondary to pick up the scraps.
I don’t want to conceede the season (most people wrote the yanks off at this point as well!) but once we get into the offseason, a deep look needs to be taken at the entire defensive backfied (save Revis), ESPECIALLY safety.
I think the Jets will go 7-1 the rest of the way… We’ve been in every game, and it’s bound come together after the bye.
I think we will win the AFC EAST with an 11-5 record, New England will finish 10-6, Miami will finish 9-7.
It’s not uncommon for a team to get on a good run… I think the Jets are about to embark on one. Coach Ryan mentioned something telling, about the year that the Raiders made the playoffs after starting off 4-4. You see every season some team was 2-4 or 2-5 at one point of the season and turned it on… Why can’t that be the Jets.
This is the playoff picture as of today…
IND 7-0, DEN 6-1, CIN 5-2, PIT 5-2, NE 5-2, HOU 5-3, BAL 5-3, SD 4-3, NYJ 4-4 & MIA 3-4.
I predict the final standings will be:
1. AFC NORTH
PIT (13-3) w/ wins against DEN, CIN, KC, BAL, OAK, CLE, BAL and MIA, w/ a lose against GB
2. AFC SOUTH
IND (13-3) w/ wins against HOU, NE, BAL, DEN, BUF and JAX w/ loses against HOU, TEN, NYJ
3. AFC EAST
NYJ (11-5) w/ wins against JAX, NE, CAR, BUF, TB, IND and CIN w/ lose against ATL
4. AFC WEST
SD (11-5) w/ wins against DEN, KC, CLE, DAL, CIN, TEN, WAS and loses against NYG and PHI
5. WILDCARD #1
NE (10-6) w/ wins against MIA, CAR, BUF, JAX, HOU w/ loses against IND, NYJ, NO and MIA.
6. WILDCARD # 2
DEN (10-6) w/ wins against WAS, KC, OAK and KC and loses against PIT, SD, NYG, IND and PHI
Outside looking in:
BAL 9-7
MIA 9-7
HOU 7-9
CIN 8-8