A few months back, when the Jets anounced PSL’s would be required, I suggested that fans stay away for the first part of the of the opening game to demontrate to Woodypecker that the fans did NOT approve of being fleeced (extortion $$)
Subsequent to that, the Browns fans DID listen, and they are doing just that on NOV. 16. although for different reasons.
Regardless of cause, the effect will be seen as the National media will be there.
The only reason I’d watch is because I have a wager on the game (**friendly wager, no money, don’t hunt me down, IRS). Aside from that, there is nothing interesting about this game and the Ravens are going to smash the Browns.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that (ravens smashing the Browns). Was it not you that said Mangini has a history of getting his team ready to play right after the bye?
And believe it or not, the Browns D is starting to come together, since Trusnik is playing LB, remember him?
Oh, yeah, Trusnik…isn’t that the guy who wouldn’t have ever played LB for us unless both our starters were out, then our backups went out? He’s a special teams guy moonlighting as a starter.
“The Browns D is starting to come together” Do you even look up any factual information before you post? Or is it all 100% BS? 75%?
Last week: gave up 369 yards (170 rushing) and 23 points to the Bears (16th ranked offense) while being dominated in TOP 37 minutes to 22 minutes.
Week before: Gave up 460 yards (202 rushing) and 31 points to the Packers while losing TOP 36 minutes to 24 minutes.
Week before: gave up 543 yards (140 rushign) and 27 points to the Steelers while losing the TOP battle 37 to 23.
So in the past 3 games they gave up 1372 yards (512 rushing) and 81 points. Orrrrr 457.3 yards per game (170.6 rushing) and 27 points.
Like when he says it is nice to share the stadium because it is half the cost—-even nicer that they are getting twice the PSL’s. Don’t get me started Woody. All of the sudden you think it is great that the fans can tailgait—-yet you were willing to move to the west side where no tailgaiting would be possible. Your only concern is your bottom line—you don’t give a damn about the fans.
You are sooo right about this dirt bag. He is soo dumb for a BILLIONAIRE that even puts his foot in his mouth about doubling his profit due to sharing half of the expenses. And the Jets fans LOOOOOVE this guy !!!
Fans are just the collateral damage in an economic arms race among owners, players and TV networks. The Jets wouldn’t have remained profitable for much longer with escalating player salaries and operating costs with the revenue generated through the lease deal at the old Giants stadium. So they – and the Giants – build a stadium capable of generating significantly higher profits over the long-term with expensive financing only possible in the short term with fans’ PSL money and corporate box sales. Those corporations will also pass the cost of those boxes down to the consumers buying their products. The bottom line is that the average consumer always pays the price.
Don’t call me boy, please. What I’m saying is that the “improvement” you speak of is from god-awful-atrocious, to just really really bad. If giving up 370 yards, 170 rushing and losing the TOP battle by a whopping 15 minutes because you can’t get your offense off the field is “coming together”, then yes you proved your point. But for the rest of us football fans a defense “coming together” would be 3 lockdown games where it showed it’s potential. If 370/170/15 minutes is reaching their potential, then bravo, Mangini, bravo!
Then I must apologize twofold: !st for calling you Boy, I ment to say Roy. Sorry.
Second, I apologize for Not speaking from atop of the DEFENSIVE world, like the JETS, like yourself, but I thought we were referring to the BROWNS D. I know I was only speaking from the Browns perspective.
We are referring to the Browns D. I don’t think “coming together” is a case-by-case basis. If your defense is coming together it should be performing well by national standards, not losing-team standards. 170 rushing yards is atrocious for any team, so going from 202 to 170 is coming together because they’re an awful team?
It sounds like you are giving the Jets a pass on this, and if you are I diagree completely.
NY and the Metro are is the highest rated area in TV land and earns the highest share if TV revenue from ALL TV Networks, Possibly totaling a Trillion (Capital T) dollars.
There are many frachises in football other sports with new stadiums that are financilly stable and NOT drawing that kind of TV revenew.
Add to that the Jets have the only, I believe, NFL franchise to ha ve theadvantage of sharing residency and therefore expenses, while THEY (JETS/GIANTS)DO NOT SHARE REVENUES. Revenues are intact, which means DOUBLE THE PROFIT of any other NFL franchise.
Now, you would be right if you were referring to the Jets.
In that case you would definitely NOT say the Jets D is comming together!! Why? Because the Jets D won convincingly the first three games, then lost 4 out of the next 5.
That means, If a child takes three steps forward then three backward, then one forward then…..well you get the picture.
Would you say the child is getting it together? I don’t think so, would you?
Yes, Hank, the upside will be very big for the new stadium. My point is simply that keeping things as they were was not an option. They would have begun losing money in a year or two if they even had the option to remain at the crumbling Meadowlands – which they didn’t. The Giants were going to build a new stadium and move no matter what the Jets did.
The NFL model is the same as that for the stores along Broadway in my neighborhood. There are no nice, steady, little businesses anymore. There are only big winners, making very large profits, and losers going out of business. The business middle class has evaporated in the 21st century style free markets. It’s comforting to create individual villains – like Woody – and blame them for everything, but it’s overly simplistic and misses the fact that the problem is systemic.
Hey Hank,
Remember Braylon Edwards, the guy who made a ridiculous TD catch and carried TWO guys into the endzone? TD’s count for six points, a sack gets nothing. They mean less when your defense gives up over 300 yards and lose. Besides we managed six sack w/o Trusnick and still managed to lose the game. The only game Trusnick shined this season was the Tenn game when he layed out Mouton, who proved to be the worst KO/PR guy in the league this year. He wouldnt have stopped Ginn all by himself, too many players missed assignments on the first KO. You cant F up that bad and expect one guy to bail the whole unit out.
Oh man, just when I think things were starting to turn around for Hank. First the “Mangini may prove to be a better GM than HC” comment. Then the knowledgeable, fact-filled PSL points. I thought you were learning the value of give and take. Just like SOJ its Same Old Hank. “Making excuses and finding a silver lining for Eric Mangini since 2005″
I don’t even understand how your comments are a rebuttal to what I said.
My point is that you shouldn’t have a different definition of “coming together” for every team. If a team comes together, it should mean one thing, a string of games where the unit plays well enough to win, would be a good definition. The Browns defense hasn’t played well enough to win, except for when the Bills were running into each other on offense and they lost.
And using your child comment: I would be concerned if my child was learning to walk while other children his same age were playing on the playground. NFL defense is NFL defense, they’re the same “age”, if you will. I would consider your two steps forward, one back, two forward, one back approach for a high school, or maybe even college. But the NFL is the NFL, these guys know how to play the game by now, so a bad team is a bad team any way you slice it. A team isn’t “coming together” until it starts performing to the point where it can actually WIN a game. The object of “coming together” as a unit isn’t so you don’t lose as bad as you were earlier in the year, it’s to win.
And the Jets D, aside from one game, has been stout. They don’t need to come together, because they’re already there. Understand that?
PSL = Personal Sucker License. Whoever buys one of these needs to have their heads examined.
#1 Ticket prices are only going up, and if you do not buy tickets for whatever reason you lose your PSL $$. What happens in 10 years when tickets are $350 per game x10 games per seat, if you have 4 seats that = $14,000. That is without prepaying for parking!
#2 When you want to go to a game all you have to do is go online and buy tickets for any game you want.
#3 Why should a fan help finance a stadium for an owner without any incentives such as discounted concession prices or free parking? I mean $7 for a beer on top of a PSL, please, they should offer a discount card to PSL holders.
#4 HD TV and a 50 inch screen, and no traffic jams!
I had tickets for 40 years and gave them up his year after listening to an idiot from the Jets on the phone tell me that a PSL was a good investment. I have watched all of the games on my couch, and even get to watch the 4 pm game! Have not missed a thing, except traffic!
“If a team comes together, it should mean one thing, a string of games where the unit plays well enough to win”
Well enough to win !! That says it all, well enough to win !!
Have you seen the offense since day one? If you have, you would not question time of possesion, scores, won and lost records etc, etc, etc.
You mention las sunday against the Bears. Well there were five turnovers and I don’t know how many dropped passes! I mean Da passer rating was ZERO in the first half, and you have the gall to question the defense?
I could go on, and on, and on, but I will save us the time and effort !!!
Your post was so on point I could cry. For a second I thought I had written it as it echoes my feelings exactly. My father and I gave up our seats this year, seats he’s had since ‘67, and all we could say to each other after last Sunday’s epic loss was — “Hey, at least we weren’t there!” Don’t miss the cold/parking/traffic/drunks/staying till the bitter end only to lose one bit… I do miss throwing the football around with the old man before the game though…
Now that we are on it, let me tell you something: That Is the tragedy of what is going on in Cleveland.
Every disgracefull reporter in the shark infested press cesspool blames Mangini for beign a total failure, EVEN BEFORE THE PADS WERE ON!!!
And NOT one mentions that they have absolutely NO QB, NO Receivers (the only thing K2 did was bitch and Edwards drop passes) and no RB’s ( Davis the Phenom on DL day one)
And NOT ONE, NOT ONE pencil pusher writes about that.
I agree wholeheartedly. Take a look at my first post, it’s all about PSL’s and the fact that months ago I suggested that the Jets bretheren actively, and easely demonstrate this owners “Personal Suckers License” extortion $$$$. And yes, that is the name I Baptised it then also.
Of course, my friend Mr Brendan, picked on my example and ran with it !!!
The fact is that he is helll bent on bashing everything Mangini and I defend him.
Most of your points are well taken, but Woody absolutely was not “made a villan” in order to “blame him for everything.”
He is a self made villan(aire) and must be blamed for this extortion $$$ because he is personally responsible for shoving it down the throat of his ”
followers.(congregation)
He is a greedy in that he understands that most sports fans are addicts and he will extort/fleece as much $$$$$ as he can out of them.
And before we get on the “That’s Capitalism ” side kick, how else do you explain his “generous” price roll back on 7000 of his 65,000 = seats from $400 t0 $200 PER SEAT/PER GAME, are you kidding me?
He is a smart, smart, greedy capitalist that is milking every red cent out of the NY Metro area market (addicts) fans !!!
I strongly suggest you speak out against this now before, as you say, ONLY large Corporations can aford to buy season tickets, because as you and I know, WoodyPecker can’t wait to get there !!!
Anybody who pays for a PSL has their priorities out of whack. The NFL is a classic TV sport, it’s made for it. Honestly can anyone say that being at any professional sporting event is better than being at home with family and friends watching the game?
Prices will come down because demand will go down. Look at oil use for a perfect example. Supply and demand. Also throw in the threats of the NFLPA not having players report for the playoffs.
Hank I was pointing out the reason the Browns are doing “your idea” is for an entirely different reason. Fact is, your idea would never work because the Jets team is exciting and worth watching so people will go to the games regardless. And the truth is people are buying the PSLs. It’s not my fault that anytime someone speaks poorly about Mangini you go into a tizzy and feel the need to defend him. 99% of football fans (including browns fans) think Mangini is a terrible coach, and a worse GM. I don’t need to convince you of what everyone else already knows.
I highly doubt players would skip the playoffs. This is their livelihood and I can’t see them jeopardizing it for the fans, as much as some of them love us.
And oil prices have gone down? Maybe from the absurd $3.50 a gallon, but they’re still up 150-200% since the mid-90’s. PSLs won’t be plummeting in price unless they’re still unsold by preseason next year.
And yes, I can honestly say being at an event is better than being at home watching it. I’ve been to GREAT games in person. Robin Ventura’s grand-slam single. Larry Johnson’s 4 point play. I was at the Matteu! Matteu! Matteu! game at the garden. I’ll even throw in the Pats game from this season into that group. Games that, while exciting on tv (and more convenient with fantasy, gambling, finances, etc.) don’t hold a candle to the games in person. The buzz in the air, the boom as the crowd erupts in unison. Yeah, a stinker like the bills game this year are awful to sit through, but nothing beats being in the building for a legendary game.
The current NFL model exists because it’s what the market will bear. Woody didn’t invent it. He’s operating within a system that has drifted towards rewarding a reach for the highest profits while punishing those who attempt to maintain the status quo. There are a number of participants including corporations that buy boxes, players, agents, lawyers, networks, advertisers, politicians, real estate speculators, construction firms, etc. that contribute to the cost of a seat at a new stadium.
I have no particular affinity for Woody Johnson, I just don’t see him as being that much more greedy than any of the other players in the opera. If he were, he’d likely have bet his family fortune on something with a higher and faster rate of return than an NFL franchise. There are easier ways to make money. And the one upside to the increased financial pressure on Woody is that there’s a much stronger motivation to deliver a winner than in the Leon Hess era. There are, of course, a number of different arguments to be made about how that should be done and whether Woody Johnson is employing the best strategy. He’s fair game, there.
The one point on which we agree is that the fans have to power to change the equation by not buying the PSLs or season tickets. As you have pointed out, that has already delivered some downward pressure on the pricing. Perhaps if enough fans in enough markets reject the current price structure there will be pushbacks all the way down the chain sufficient to reset the baseline. Either that or some of these big stadium bets will just fail and the league will eventually crumble in on itself.
“The current NFL model exists because it’s what the market will bear. Woody didn’t invent it. He’s operating within a system that has drifted towards rewarding a reach for the highest profits while punishing those who attempt to maintain the status quo”
That is exactly my point!! It is the greed for the highest profits by some, not all, that is the root of the problem. PSL’s anyone? And maybe “Partnership Fees” to come from these licenses. Greed, to some, is more than a business, it a way of life !!!
Why do you think this country is shifting towards Socialism?
Also,
“If he were, he’d likely have bet his family fortune on
something with a higher and faster rate of return than an NFL franchise”.
Two points there: 1) I’m not too sure about that if you look at the return on original investment and it beign about as much recession proof as there is ( besides Medical stuff) and 2) Can’t think of any other business that gives the ownership a “Toy” that weilds as much sense of POWER over individuals as professional sports.
You quoted a section of my post yet disregarded the gist of its content, which is fine. But who exactly are the greedy, “some?” The owners of all the teams that sell PSLs?
Ny Jets
NY Giants
Tennessee Titans
Carolina Panthers
Pittsburgh Steelers
Philadelphia Eagles
St. Louis Rams
Houston Texans
Baltimore Ravens
Chicago Bears
Seattle Seahawks
Cincinnatti Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Cleveland Browns
Does Randy Lerner deserve less ire than Woody for some reason? It’s a simplistic, romantic notion that NFL owners are so rich they pay for their teams out of their pockets, but a false one. In building a 1.6 billion dollar stadium both the Jets and Giants ownership took on humongous debt loads:
“Mara said that “it would have been impossible” to finance the Giants’ half of the stadium without selling seat licenses. Not only are the Giants and the Jets splitting the cost of the most expensive stadium in the N.F.L., but the league is requiring that they repay their debt faster than even their banks required. Each team received $150 million from the league’s stadium-financing program to defray construction costs. After proceeds from the seat licenses and the N.F.L. loan, Mara said that about $500 million would remain to be financed from other sources such as revenues from tickets, concessions, sponsorships, naming rights, luxury suites and club seats.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/sports/football/27seats.html?scp=4&sq=stadium%20psls,%20credit&st=cse
Why should a new stadium cost 1.6 billion dollars? It shouldn’t, but does for a number of the reasons I noted in an earlier post, including NY area real estate and construction costs, political lobbying (aka graft) etc. “It costs more to build in New York, but the total is breathtakingly ridiculous,” said Marc Ganis, a sports industry consultant. “How did it get up to $1.6 billion, five times more than Gillette Stadium http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/sports/football/01sandomir.html?scp=1&sq=stadium%20psls,%20credit&st=cse
I’m not saying that Woody Johnson is a saint and doesn’t share some responsibility for his participation in something that bleeds the fans. My point is that demonizing him any more than the other participants is disingenuous. Greed is viral at all levels of the system.
Woody the Weasel is full of crxp. Let’s see, Yankee Stadium, the mecca of baseball lasted 85 years. And could have lasted probably another 20 years. Fenway Park is probably 100 years old. Wrigley the same.
The only reason Woody The Weasel says every 40 years is so he can soak fans for more PSL fees.
Of course his strategy of alienating JETS fans has paid off. They have 20,000 tickets still available for 2010 and no waiting list. At this rate there will be 40,000 seats available when Woody builds his next stadium in 2050. Let’s hope he is a bit smarter and builds it with a retractable dome.
Woody please sell the team to The Boss, George Steinbrenner.
Brian:
A few months back, when the Jets anounced PSL’s would be required, I suggested that fans stay away for the first part of the of the opening game to demontrate to Woodypecker that the fans did NOT approve of being fleeced (extortion $$)
Subsequent to that, the Browns fans DID listen, and they are doing just that on NOV. 16. although for different reasons.
Regardless of cause, the effect will be seen as the National media will be there.
Browns fans are doing it because their coach has the team playing at an all time high.
Brendan:
From the looks of it, you’re also going to participate the boycott by not watching it on MNF, Am I right?
The only reason I’d watch is because I have a wager on the game (**friendly wager, no money, don’t hunt me down, IRS). Aside from that, there is nothing interesting about this game and the Ravens are going to smash the Browns.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that (ravens smashing the Browns). Was it not you that said Mangini has a history of getting his team ready to play right after the bye?
And believe it or not, the Browns D is starting to come together, since Trusnik is playing LB, remember him?
Oh, yeah, Trusnik…isn’t that the guy who wouldn’t have ever played LB for us unless both our starters were out, then our backups went out? He’s a special teams guy moonlighting as a starter.
“The Browns D is starting to come together” Do you even look up any factual information before you post? Or is it all 100% BS? 75%?
Last week: gave up 369 yards (170 rushing) and 23 points to the Bears (16th ranked offense) while being dominated in TOP 37 minutes to 22 minutes.
Week before: Gave up 460 yards (202 rushing) and 31 points to the Packers while losing TOP 36 minutes to 24 minutes.
Week before: gave up 543 yards (140 rushign) and 27 points to the Steelers while losing the TOP battle 37 to 23.
So in the past 3 games they gave up 1372 yards (512 rushing) and 81 points. Orrrrr 457.3 yards per game (170.6 rushing) and 27 points.
Things are realllllllly coming together.
Like when he says it is nice to share the stadium because it is half the cost—-even nicer that they are getting twice the PSL’s. Don’t get me started Woody. All of the sudden you think it is great that the fans can tailgait—-yet you were willing to move to the west side where no tailgaiting would be possible. Your only concern is your bottom line—you don’t give a damn about the fans.
Brendan:
Yeah Trusnick. The same Trusnick that WAS your special teams MVP. The same Trusnik that you desperately needed to stop Ted Ginn. Remember Ginn?
Nam Vet Jet:
You are sooo right about this dirt bag. He is soo dumb for a BILLIONAIRE that even puts his foot in his mouth about doubling his profit due to sharing half of the expenses. And the Jets fans LOOOOOVE this guy !!!
Brendan:
You know, sometimes you argue just to let out the SOJ frustration impaled on guys like youself by a hipocritical front office.
Your case in point: 500, 400, 300 yds allowed the last three games. You dare to argue with the facts, boy?
Fans are just the collateral damage in an economic arms race among owners, players and TV networks. The Jets wouldn’t have remained profitable for much longer with escalating player salaries and operating costs with the revenue generated through the lease deal at the old Giants stadium. So they – and the Giants – build a stadium capable of generating significantly higher profits over the long-term with expensive financing only possible in the short term with fans’ PSL money and corporate box sales. Those corporations will also pass the cost of those boxes down to the consumers buying their products. The bottom line is that the average consumer always pays the price.
Don’t call me boy, please. What I’m saying is that the “improvement” you speak of is from god-awful-atrocious, to just really really bad. If giving up 370 yards, 170 rushing and losing the TOP battle by a whopping 15 minutes because you can’t get your offense off the field is “coming together”, then yes you proved your point. But for the rest of us football fans a defense “coming together” would be 3 lockdown games where it showed it’s potential. If 370/170/15 minutes is reaching their potential, then bravo, Mangini, bravo!
Brendan:
Then I must apologize twofold: !st for calling you Boy, I ment to say Roy. Sorry.
Second, I apologize for Not speaking from atop of the DEFENSIVE world, like the JETS, like yourself, but I thought we were referring to the BROWNS D. I know I was only speaking from the Browns perspective.
We are referring to the Browns D. I don’t think “coming together” is a case-by-case basis. If your defense is coming together it should be performing well by national standards, not losing-team standards. 170 rushing yards is atrocious for any team, so going from 202 to 170 is coming together because they’re an awful team?
Suwayfare:
It sounds like you are giving the Jets a pass on this, and if you are I diagree completely.
NY and the Metro are is the highest rated area in TV land and earns the highest share if TV revenue from ALL TV Networks, Possibly totaling a Trillion (Capital T) dollars.
There are many frachises in football other sports with new stadiums that are financilly stable and NOT drawing that kind of TV revenew.
Add to that the Jets have the only, I believe, NFL franchise to ha ve theadvantage of sharing residency and therefore expenses, while THEY (JETS/GIANTS)DO NOT SHARE REVENUES. Revenues are intact, which means DOUBLE THE PROFIT of any other NFL franchise.
Brendan:
C’mon Brendan, give it a break. What part of “comming together” dont you understand, really?
Your reference to the end, desired result doesn’t make sense.
If your child is “starting to walk” would you compare him to other children in the playground, already playing? C’mon, seriously !!!
Brendan:
Now, you would be right if you were referring to the Jets.
In that case you would definitely NOT say the Jets D is comming together!! Why? Because the Jets D won convincingly the first three games, then lost 4 out of the next 5.
That means, If a child takes three steps forward then three backward, then one forward then…..well you get the picture.
Would you say the child is getting it together? I don’t think so, would you?
I dont like Woody Johnson at all, but he lets Tannebaum and Rex do pretty much whatever the hell they want so I wont kill from that point.
I understand the NFL is a buisness but the fee is out of control, and the Giants fee is beyond comprehension.
It sucks that instead of getting a couple of season tickets, I had to make a choice between those and putting new bolt joints on all my trucks.
Go to the Jet game, lose my distribution company…Decisions decisions
Yes, Hank, the upside will be very big for the new stadium. My point is simply that keeping things as they were was not an option. They would have begun losing money in a year or two if they even had the option to remain at the crumbling Meadowlands – which they didn’t. The Giants were going to build a new stadium and move no matter what the Jets did.
The NFL model is the same as that for the stores along Broadway in my neighborhood. There are no nice, steady, little businesses anymore. There are only big winners, making very large profits, and losers going out of business. The business middle class has evaporated in the 21st century style free markets. It’s comforting to create individual villains – like Woody – and blame them for everything, but it’s overly simplistic and misses the fact that the problem is systemic.
Hey Hank,
Remember Braylon Edwards, the guy who made a ridiculous TD catch and carried TWO guys into the endzone? TD’s count for six points, a sack gets nothing. They mean less when your defense gives up over 300 yards and lose. Besides we managed six sack w/o Trusnick and still managed to lose the game. The only game Trusnick shined this season was the Tenn game when he layed out Mouton, who proved to be the worst KO/PR guy in the league this year. He wouldnt have stopped Ginn all by himself, too many players missed assignments on the first KO. You cant F up that bad and expect one guy to bail the whole unit out.
Oh man, just when I think things were starting to turn around for Hank. First the “Mangini may prove to be a better GM than HC” comment. Then the knowledgeable, fact-filled PSL points. I thought you were learning the value of give and take. Just like SOJ its Same Old Hank. “Making excuses and finding a silver lining for Eric Mangini since 2005″
And Feely is the Special Teams MVP for the year so far, 13-15 hasnt missed a kick when the team was trailing all year.
Trusnick was the ST MVP for the Titans game, maybe
Hank,
I don’t even understand how your comments are a rebuttal to what I said.
My point is that you shouldn’t have a different definition of “coming together” for every team. If a team comes together, it should mean one thing, a string of games where the unit plays well enough to win, would be a good definition. The Browns defense hasn’t played well enough to win, except for when the Bills were running into each other on offense and they lost.
And using your child comment: I would be concerned if my child was learning to walk while other children his same age were playing on the playground. NFL defense is NFL defense, they’re the same “age”, if you will. I would consider your two steps forward, one back, two forward, one back approach for a high school, or maybe even college. But the NFL is the NFL, these guys know how to play the game by now, so a bad team is a bad team any way you slice it. A team isn’t “coming together” until it starts performing to the point where it can actually WIN a game. The object of “coming together” as a unit isn’t so you don’t lose as bad as you were earlier in the year, it’s to win.
And the Jets D, aside from one game, has been stout. They don’t need to come together, because they’re already there. Understand that?
Woody, please sell.
PSL = Personal Sucker License. Whoever buys one of these needs to have their heads examined.
#1 Ticket prices are only going up, and if you do not buy tickets for whatever reason you lose your PSL $$. What happens in 10 years when tickets are $350 per game x10 games per seat, if you have 4 seats that = $14,000. That is without prepaying for parking!
#2 When you want to go to a game all you have to do is go online and buy tickets for any game you want.
#3 Why should a fan help finance a stadium for an owner without any incentives such as discounted concession prices or free parking? I mean $7 for a beer on top of a PSL, please, they should offer a discount card to PSL holders.
#4 HD TV and a 50 inch screen, and no traffic jams!
I had tickets for 40 years and gave them up his year after listening to an idiot from the Jets on the phone tell me that a PSL was a good investment. I have watched all of the games on my couch, and even get to watch the 4 pm game! Have not missed a thing, except traffic!
Brendan:
“If a team comes together, it should mean one thing, a string of games where the unit plays well enough to win”
Well enough to win !! That says it all, well enough to win !!
Have you seen the offense since day one? If you have, you would not question time of possesion, scores, won and lost records etc, etc, etc.
You mention las sunday against the Bears. Well there were five turnovers and I don’t know how many dropped passes! I mean Da passer rating was ZERO in the first half, and you have the gall to question the defense?
I could go on, and on, and on, but I will save us the time and effort !!!
What is it, do you want to just argue?
Cabras:
Your post was so on point I could cry. For a second I thought I had written it as it echoes my feelings exactly. My father and I gave up our seats this year, seats he’s had since ‘67, and all we could say to each other after last Sunday’s epic loss was — “Hey, at least we weren’t there!” Don’t miss the cold/parking/traffic/drunks/staying till the bitter end only to lose one bit… I do miss throwing the football around with the old man before the game though…
PSL’s suck.
Brendan:
Now that we are on it, let me tell you something: That Is the tragedy of what is going on in Cleveland.
Every disgracefull reporter in the shark infested press cesspool blames Mangini for beign a total failure, EVEN BEFORE THE PADS WERE ON!!!
And NOT one mentions that they have absolutely NO QB, NO Receivers (the only thing K2 did was bitch and Edwards drop passes) and no RB’s ( Davis the Phenom on DL day one)
And NOT ONE, NOT ONE pencil pusher writes about that.
DON”T YOU THINK LERNER IS AWARE OF THAT??
THIS IS WHY I CALL IT A TRAGEDY !!!!
Hank/Naples, Brendan, Boy, Roy, Bobby, Cindy
It seems as if both your arguements are coming together.
What was the topic of dicussion….. oh yeah Woody and PSL’s.
You guys weren’t hired by Woody to get us talking about something other than PSL’s were you?
Johnny:
I agree wholeheartedly. Take a look at my first post, it’s all about PSL’s and the fact that months ago I suggested that the Jets bretheren actively, and easely demonstrate this owners “Personal Suckers License” extortion $$$$. And yes, that is the name I Baptised it then also.
Of course, my friend Mr Brendan, picked on my example and ran with it !!!
The fact is that he is helll bent on bashing everything Mangini and I defend him.
subwayfare:
Most of your points are well taken, but Woody absolutely was not “made a villan” in order to “blame him for everything.”
He is a self made villan(aire) and must be blamed for this extortion $$$ because he is personally responsible for shoving it down the throat of his ”
followers.(congregation)
He is a greedy in that he understands that most sports fans are addicts and he will extort/fleece as much $$$$$ as he can out of them.
And before we get on the “That’s Capitalism ” side kick, how else do you explain his “generous” price roll back on 7000 of his 65,000 = seats from $400 t0 $200 PER SEAT/PER GAME, are you kidding me?
He is a smart, smart, greedy capitalist that is milking every red cent out of the NY Metro area market (addicts) fans !!!
I strongly suggest you speak out against this now before, as you say, ONLY large Corporations can aford to buy season tickets, because as you and I know, WoodyPecker can’t wait to get there !!!
Anybody who pays for a PSL has their priorities out of whack. The NFL is a classic TV sport, it’s made for it. Honestly can anyone say that being at any professional sporting event is better than being at home with family and friends watching the game?
Prices will come down because demand will go down. Look at oil use for a perfect example. Supply and demand. Also throw in the threats of the NFLPA not having players report for the playoffs.
Its going to be a wild ride.
Hank I was pointing out the reason the Browns are doing “your idea” is for an entirely different reason. Fact is, your idea would never work because the Jets team is exciting and worth watching so people will go to the games regardless. And the truth is people are buying the PSLs. It’s not my fault that anytime someone speaks poorly about Mangini you go into a tizzy and feel the need to defend him. 99% of football fans (including browns fans) think Mangini is a terrible coach, and a worse GM. I don’t need to convince you of what everyone else already knows.
James,
I highly doubt players would skip the playoffs. This is their livelihood and I can’t see them jeopardizing it for the fans, as much as some of them love us.
And oil prices have gone down? Maybe from the absurd $3.50 a gallon, but they’re still up 150-200% since the mid-90’s. PSLs won’t be plummeting in price unless they’re still unsold by preseason next year.
And yes, I can honestly say being at an event is better than being at home watching it. I’ve been to GREAT games in person. Robin Ventura’s grand-slam single. Larry Johnson’s 4 point play. I was at the Matteu! Matteu! Matteu! game at the garden. I’ll even throw in the Pats game from this season into that group. Games that, while exciting on tv (and more convenient with fantasy, gambling, finances, etc.) don’t hold a candle to the games in person. The buzz in the air, the boom as the crowd erupts in unison. Yeah, a stinker like the bills game this year are awful to sit through, but nothing beats being in the building for a legendary game.
Hank-
The current NFL model exists because it’s what the market will bear. Woody didn’t invent it. He’s operating within a system that has drifted towards rewarding a reach for the highest profits while punishing those who attempt to maintain the status quo. There are a number of participants including corporations that buy boxes, players, agents, lawyers, networks, advertisers, politicians, real estate speculators, construction firms, etc. that contribute to the cost of a seat at a new stadium.
I have no particular affinity for Woody Johnson, I just don’t see him as being that much more greedy than any of the other players in the opera. If he were, he’d likely have bet his family fortune on something with a higher and faster rate of return than an NFL franchise. There are easier ways to make money. And the one upside to the increased financial pressure on Woody is that there’s a much stronger motivation to deliver a winner than in the Leon Hess era. There are, of course, a number of different arguments to be made about how that should be done and whether Woody Johnson is employing the best strategy. He’s fair game, there.
The one point on which we agree is that the fans have to power to change the equation by not buying the PSLs or season tickets. As you have pointed out, that has already delivered some downward pressure on the pricing. Perhaps if enough fans in enough markets reject the current price structure there will be pushbacks all the way down the chain sufficient to reset the baseline. Either that or some of these big stadium bets will just fail and the league will eventually crumble in on itself.
subwayfare:
“The current NFL model exists because it’s what the market will bear. Woody didn’t invent it. He’s operating within a system that has drifted towards rewarding a reach for the highest profits while punishing those who attempt to maintain the status quo”
That is exactly my point!! It is the greed for the highest profits by some, not all, that is the root of the problem. PSL’s anyone? And maybe “Partnership Fees” to come from these licenses. Greed, to some, is more than a business, it a way of life !!!
Why do you think this country is shifting towards Socialism?
Also,
“If he were, he’d likely have bet his family fortune on
something with a higher and faster rate of return than an NFL franchise”.
Two points there: 1) I’m not too sure about that if you look at the return on original investment and it beign about as much recession proof as there is ( besides Medical stuff) and 2) Can’t think of any other business that gives the ownership a “Toy” that weilds as much sense of POWER over individuals as professional sports.
Hank-
You quoted a section of my post yet disregarded the gist of its content, which is fine. But who exactly are the greedy, “some?” The owners of all the teams that sell PSLs?
Ny Jets
NY Giants
Tennessee Titans
Carolina Panthers
Pittsburgh Steelers
Philadelphia Eagles
St. Louis Rams
Houston Texans
Baltimore Ravens
Chicago Bears
Seattle Seahawks
Cincinnatti Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Cleveland Browns
Does Randy Lerner deserve less ire than Woody for some reason? It’s a simplistic, romantic notion that NFL owners are so rich they pay for their teams out of their pockets, but a false one. In building a 1.6 billion dollar stadium both the Jets and Giants ownership took on humongous debt loads:
“Mara said that “it would have been impossible” to finance the Giants’ half of the stadium without selling seat licenses. Not only are the Giants and the Jets splitting the cost of the most expensive stadium in the N.F.L., but the league is requiring that they repay their debt faster than even their banks required. Each team received $150 million from the league’s stadium-financing program to defray construction costs. After proceeds from the seat licenses and the N.F.L. loan, Mara said that about $500 million would remain to be financed from other sources such as revenues from tickets, concessions, sponsorships, naming rights, luxury suites and club seats.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/sports/football/27seats.html?scp=4&sq=stadium%20psls,%20credit&st=cse
Why should a new stadium cost 1.6 billion dollars? It shouldn’t, but does for a number of the reasons I noted in an earlier post, including NY area real estate and construction costs, political lobbying (aka graft) etc. “It costs more to build in New York, but the total is breathtakingly ridiculous,” said Marc Ganis, a sports industry consultant. “How did it get up to $1.6 billion, five times more than Gillette Stadium http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/sports/football/01sandomir.html?scp=1&sq=stadium%20psls,%20credit&st=cse
I’m not saying that Woody Johnson is a saint and doesn’t share some responsibility for his participation in something that bleeds the fans. My point is that demonizing him any more than the other participants is disingenuous. Greed is viral at all levels of the system.
Woody the Weasel is full of crxp. Let’s see, Yankee Stadium, the mecca of baseball lasted 85 years. And could have lasted probably another 20 years. Fenway Park is probably 100 years old. Wrigley the same.
The only reason Woody The Weasel says every 40 years is so he can soak fans for more PSL fees.
Of course his strategy of alienating JETS fans has paid off. They have 20,000 tickets still available for 2010 and no waiting list. At this rate there will be 40,000 seats available when Woody builds his next stadium in 2050. Let’s hope he is a bit smarter and builds it with a retractable dome.
Woody please sell the team to The Boss, George Steinbrenner.