Link: Source Throws Mangini Under Bus; Picks Update
In a report certain to re-ignite a debate around these parts, Rich Cimini reports what many people had already been saying: that (according to a “source”), the Jets only drafted Vernon Gholston because Mangini lobbied hard for him.
Cimini calls Gholston “disappointing” and notes that:
His playing time has almost disappeared (only about a dozen defensive snaps in the past two games)
To me, this all sounds a bit too much like the current regime trying to pass the buck. As for Gholston, I don’t think many people expected him to be getting many more reps than that with Calvin Pace and Bryan Thomas ahead of him on the depth chart and the fact that he was getting more reps earlier in the year is to his credit. Still, he clearly isn’t making the impact the Jets hoped for and it isn’t a good sign if they are trying to make excuses for him.
More importantly, Cimini also passes on some new information about the conditional picks attached to Braylon Edwards and Lito Sheppard:
If [Lito] plays in 40% to 70% of the defensive snaps, the Jets have to give up a 2010 fourth-rounder and would get a 2010 fifth-round pick in return. If it’s less than 40%, they don’t owe anything to the Eagles, who already received the Jets’ 2009 fifth rounder. Another four games should put Sheppard over the 40% mark…
[If] Edwards hits 65 [receptions], the conditional third-round pick sent to the Browns in last month’s trade increases to a second-rounder. He’d have to average more than five receptions per game.
Note: This conflicts with what was previously reported on Lito, where if he missed the 85% of snaps condition, the Jets would owe nothing if they didn’t sign him to that extension. Also, the numbers on Braylon are surprisingly low when Adam Schefter previously suggested he would have to have an amazing season for the 2nd rounder to kick in.
BASSETT UPDATE: This is something that I have heard MONTHS ago, and have written about on this blog multiple times. When I talked to my source about it, I asked if blaming it on Mangini was revisionist history, but the source assured me that, no, it was not revisionist and that the college scouting staff was lobbying hard for Leodis McKelvin with the sixth pick to pair with Darrelle Revis, not Vernon Gholston. I don’t know if it was watching Vrabel in New England, but Mangini clearly had a weakness for Ohio State Linebackers (see Schlegel, Anthony) and much like his terribly timed use of on-sides kicks, he didn’t learn his lesson the first time around.
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Honestly Braylon looks good enough to cost much more than that. Lito could have without injury. I’d really like to see both of these guys sign deals after the season ahs concluded.
My fear looking ahead is that while Pats have stockpiled high draft picks, we’re going to be running low. Looking all the picks traded for the likes of Sanchez and Edwards. Not going to be a happy moment if we go 6-10 this year, and then have nothing left in the draft tank to improve. Kind of odd to have a win-now team, give up a bunch of picks, and then find the team old at key positions (RB, OL, nose tackle, etc.) and no way to replace them. Wonder why Ghost-off wasn’t traded to the Browns?
Gholston cannot be traded to the Browns for financial reasons. The Jets could not fit the dead money that would arise under their salary cap (and it isn’t close).
From the article, Tannenbaum is quoted as saying they are happy to have Gholston and are pleased with his progress, but Cimini dismisses this as “spin”.
But Cimini did point out that releasing Gholston (or trading him to Cleveland) is possible next season if it is uncapped.
Wake me up when this bust gets his first sack.
“Cimini did point out that releasing Gholston (or trading him to Cleveland) is possible next season if it is uncapped.”
He’s wrong. The dead money would still bite in the next capped year.
However, if they were that desperate to get rid of him, maybe they could use the uncapped year to somehow clear enough space in 2011 to bear the dead money hit, but I don’t think this is smart business sense.
Surely it’s better to pay an underperforming Gholston (that’s assuming he continues to underperform) $3-4m than to have to pay $10m just to get rid of him. That’s a waste of $6-7m that could be used to improve the team. Cutting off the nose to spite the face?
While I do not doubt Cimini or Bassetts’ source, it still sounds like sour grapes to me.
If true, go on record, publicly, otherwise it should be treated as hearsay, inadmissable in the court of public opinion. If this truly is someone currently in the organization, he/she should not be leaking info. If the source is not with the organization, then put your name on it. Otherwise, shut the export up.
To his credit Mr. T did state that the final decision on all draft picks was his and his alone, so while someone is leaking otherwise, the public front remains that Mr. T made the call, as he of course did.
He is the GM, this, and Schlegal, rest with him. He gets credit for the good picks and the bad, and you measure him by the overall results.
All good GM’s take into account their coaches opinion, but ultimately make the decision themselves based on a preponderance of evidence. If he disagreed, he could have and should have vetoed the pick.
As for the surprsing cost of the Shephard and Edwards trade, this always seems to happen. Mr. T makes a conditional trade, low balls the compensation to his media sources, then hopes no one notices two years down the line when it turns out to be more costly.
The should just cut Shephard now to assure they do not pay the extra pick (or wait until one more loss, but he should not be on the team if/once they are eliminated. I dont want to see him starting vs. the Bengals if the game means nothing).
Edwards is unlikely to get average 5 catches per game the rest of the way, so probably no harm no foul.
Every team has first round failures. VG has slowly and sadly become ours. With the recent success in the draft with Revis, Harris, Brick, Mangold, Keller, Leon, hopefully, Sanchez/Greene…. we were bound to get a dud.
The good part is we have been able to cover this guy with the C Pace signing and the steady play of BT. Some teams have guys that ruin the franchise for years. For the most part VG is mostly forgotten before we even knew who he was.
The point is as bad as he is….Is he isnt hurting us…that much.
I still feel the Jets are getting too much of a bad rap for taking Vernon- he went right where he was projected to go in the draft, and some people had him going higher. It’s not like with Oakland taking Heward-Bey where they reached badly for a guy And I also think it’s a bit unfair to blame him for Carroll being inactive in the last game, since I thought he was inactive (along with Cole) b/c they wanted extra LBs for the running Dolphins and in case Bart had to come out with his injury. Maybe you can blame him for Murrell not being active, but they have different roles on special teams anyway (according to Westhoff) so it might not have made a difference.
What are the Jets draft picks if we don’t lose anything fir Lito?
Do we have anybody we can trade to accumulate more draft picks.
BTW….
I know we get into some pretty goods arguments on this blog……but I want to give a big thanks to all of the Vets out there (even some that post here) today
The jobs and sacrifice the men/women have given make it possible for us to argue about salary caps and poor coaching moves etc…
Happy Veterans Day and Thanks for everything.
Note: And to quote my cousin who is flying a mission to Iraq…..We better we the Jags on Sunday!!!!!!
Vernon has no brain and mire importantly, no pride. He doesn’t care if he plays or not, he already made his 20 million in guaranteed. When his contract is up, he can go open up a library somewhere.
Scott must make life hell for him in the locker room.
AKA… Drew:
And less importantly, happy birthday to the Sanchize!(according to my Jets calendar)
“As for the surprsing cost of the Shephard and Edwards trade, this always seems to happen. Mr. T makes a conditional trade, low balls the compensation to his media sources, then hopes no one notices two years down the line when it turns out to be more costly.”
I don’t believe this has ever happened. I might be wrong, but can you cite an example. In reality, when the full detail is released, it usually is better for the Jets than initially reported.
“He doesn’t care if he plays or not, he already made his 20 million in guaranteed.”
Actually, he’s only made $17m guaranteed. The other $4m of his supposedly guaranteed money will only be paid if he plays on 45% of defensive snaps in any of his first 4 seasons. He’s well below that this year (and last year).
“Scott must make life hell for him in the locker room.”
From what I saw, Vernon very much keeps himself to himself in the locker room, although it may be different behind closed doors.
Gholston acts like he has no passion for football. It evident every time hes on the field, theres no fire in him.
That’s supposedly just the way he is. He has a quiet determination rather than being intense. He’s a David Harris, not a Bart Scott.
They used to complain about the same thing at OSU and then he started putting up great numbers.
I personally think his struggles so far (especially as a pass rusher) have everything to do with his raw skill set and lack of natural agility and little to do with his willingness to play hard and improve.
Bent,
“That’s supposedly just the way he is. He has a quiet determination rather than being intense. He’s a David Harris, not a Bart Scott.”
I disagree with you there. While Harris is humble and quiet, he still shows a lot of intensity on the field, something Gholston hasnt shown at all. For instance, after a big 3rd down sack, or stop, you can always find Harris jumping around celebrating with his teammates. In the same situation, you can see Vernon Gholston casually walking off the field. That bothers me.
Mangini might have just wanted the best pass rusher and that was what we all thought we needed at the time. I had my doubts about Gholsten before the draft but when we picked him at 6 I was not upset.
Also, if Mangini was so high on Gholsten why is it Ryan who is giving him so much playing time? I think he is trying very hard to make something out of Gholsten so that Tannenbum doesn’t look like a bum.
JR – I take your point. That’s an imperfect analogy for sure.
VG doesn’t look like he’s having fun out there, which might be half the problem.
To be fair – Gholston was was making a serious run up the boards pre-draft. I find it hard to believe that Mangini was given either the only or final decision on drafting him.
New England was playing the rouse too – Kraft and Belichick were extensively scouting him. Mangini likely said to Tannenbaum “do you want to face him twice a year?” The front office got played by the Pats front office. When the Pats drafted Mayo, there was a collective “who?” – but then again, he’s clearly a system player.
Exactly, he doesnt seem to enjoy football at all. Even in the preseason when he got his first career sack, he just stood up and walked away, he showed no emotion whatsoever. Guys who excel at his position (Merriman, Harrison, Woodley, Ware, Porter,) are all intense guys, and VG is probably the least intense player I’ve ever seen on this team. It sickens me. I stand on my feet every Sunday and scream til I lose my voice, pound my chest til its sore, and punch holes in my wall, and im just a fan! It’s a disgrace that this guy shows no emotion or intensity AT ALL.
Davo,
I can tell you with confidence that the Patriots had no intentions of drafting Gholston. Bill Belichick told a friend of mine (who lives with his son at Rutgers) that he would not have drafted Gholston in the 6th round. This same friend also told me on draft day that the Pats would draft Jerod Mayo, I told him there was no chance, of course I was wrong.
Can you say DeWayne Gholston? Robertson was the 4th pick overall in 2003. His current situation: Robertson was released by the Broncos after just one season with the team.
I frankly don’t mind his on field antics after a play because that could be just his personality and its not a definition of how he plays.
Personally I think hes a bust because he still looks lost on the field. I hope and pray that he can change it around and fulfill the expectations but frankly I dont see that happening.
Atleast Robertson was a full time starter who was actually pretty productive at times. Robertson definitely didnt live up to his draft selection, but he was way better than Gholston.
Jesus – you’re right, and by all accounts they did as good a job scouting Mayo without showing their hand, as they did convincing everyone that they were interested in Gholston. By all accounts, adding to his run up the boards was the intense interest from Belichick. Not only that, but they were able to trade DOWN, get their man, AND get extra picks for subsequent years.
Patriot fans were gutted when Gholston went to the Jets – horrified at the prospect of facing his twice a year. They were stunned when Mayo was selected with #10. Just goes to show you what a lottery the draft really is.
Ryan’s been trying to see what he can do with VG because the Jets are paying him a lot of money, can’t trade or cut him, and he still has as much raw athletic ability as he ever had. He’s certainly improved over last year and has been able to push the pocket and occupy two blockers at times, opening things up for other rushers. Is that something you want to pay 20 million (or even 17) guaranteed for? No. He’ll likely never live up to his salary or draft slot, but since the Jets literally can’t write him off yet, they might as well try to get some production out of him and see how much he can improve.
If it really was Mangini pushing for VG, bad on him, but plenty of others would have, and have made, similar talent evaluation errors. Many people advocated trading up for McFadden, who got 26 million and hasn’t exactly lit up the league.
He couldn’t get on the field last year for a team coming off 4-12. Now in a year where we’re supposed to see marked improvement, it’s better if he is deactivated. He’s a bust, he stinks, it’s over. Cut him when there is no cap next year.
John,
That can’t happen because it counts against us the next capped year.
I like Gholston and want to see him succeed. But we can’t be fooled into thinking he’s on his way. It’s not the truth.
FYI… Jason Trusnik has two sacks in two starts since being traded to Cleveland.
Look around the NFL at other OLB’s/DE’s who were drafted this past year in the first round, Larry English, Clay Mathews, Cushing, Maybin, they are all much better than Gholston.
Bent,
Which is why he has he has Trusnik now another Ohio native. Don’t be too surprised if Mangini goes after Gholston to pair the two up with Veikune and Wimbley.
JesusRevis,
Gholston needs to do his job. Now he is asked to take as many blockers as he can on the line and try to create holes for the defensive backs on blitz packages to run through. He has a tremendous bull rush and no one gives him enough credit. He will do just fine in the league.
Fonzie,
We didnt pay him all that money to occupy blockers.
Yeah, as much as I’ve defended the Ghost-man during his career thus far, I can’t really do it anymore. You don’t pay a guy $17-$21mil guaranteed to do essentially the job guys like Devito, Pouha and Douglas do. While a necessary position to fill, you don’t do it with a #6 overall pick and gigantic contract (unless it’s a special talent like Haloti Ngata, where you know he is a football player).
Hey Fonzie,
Why is it ok for Gholston to just do his job and Sanchez has to light the world on fire to be given any credit?
I thought you said NO ONE was worth 50 million ?
Is it another Fonzie-Eric Mangini double standard?
That’s true…he is doing his job, but it’s not the job they drafted him to do. That doesn’t mean they’ve given up on him ever being able to do that job. He did rush the passer pretty well over the last few weeks when given the chance, but until it translates to sacks he isn’t what they hoped for.
The fortunate thing about Gholston’s contract is that, while it is difficult to get rid of him if he doesn’t pan out, at least a lot of it is made up of incentives, so if he doesn’t perform, his cap numbers are manageable. It doesn’t look like he’ll get anywhere near $50m (note: the base value is $32m). In fact, if he leaves the team after year 3 or 4, he will have probably only cost them about $20m, if that. At least they are getting some small return on that investment, with the hope that the lightbulb comes on for him at some point not entirely dead yet.
Couple of points. First, the Edwards and Lito deals aren’t likely to cost the Jets much more in picks. It’s exceedingly unlikely that Edwards will get 65 receptions and if Lito plays 40% of the defensive snaps (not a given with his injuries) all the Jets do is swap a 4th rounder for a 5th rounder. Second, I’ve been on the record since well before the 2008 draft as not in the VG camp. Even his “highlights” from OSU showed a guy who used raw speed and power to rush the passer. He had no athleticism. So, the coaching staff has been handed a guy who excels in the gym and has good measurables and turn him into a productive football player. My problem with Mangini is that he did not recognize that VG needed remedial training. I have no idea if VG can be made into a productive football player, but he’s never going to be a pass rusher. IMO, he should gain weight and try his hand at DE. He needs a position where his lack of football-IQ and athleticism won’t count against him and his speed and power would be an asset.
is that 65 receptions for the whole season or 65 with the jets?
over 5 a game for a team that runs the ball so much and has another real good possession guy won’t be easy.
i think he had 10 catches with cle.
I believe it is 65 for the whole season (not just with Jets).
stevie – Definitely 65 total.
He has 23 through 8 games, so if he averages just over 5 over the last 8 games, that gets you back to 65.
For some reason I was always under the assumption that we would be giving the Eagles something this year for Lito and we would get a pick back in return. As for Gholston its juts beating a dead horse as to who to blame. If Mr T gets the credit he should take the blame and people should not scapegoat Mangini for it.
Moving him this year is impossible. The Jets have less than 1 million in cap room. Even next year is doubtful. I’ll try to get some clarification on the uncapped thing. My understanding is that there is no acceleration of bonus money, but I have heard other people say otherwise.
im just as frustrated as anyone on gholston, but i dont see the benefit in people looking around at someone to point the finger at, or constantly yelling to trade/cut him. because of his contract, he is CANNOT be traded. we guaranteed him all that money – what would be the point of cutting him either? the FO offered him that contract – what’s done is done.
the kid is still only 23. what sense would it make to cut him and pay him not to play. he has physical stills that cannot be tought. we are stuck with him at least through 2010 so we may we well deal with the fact that he will never live up to the contract. he could, however, turn into a servicable player or perhaps gain weight and move to DE
It’s for the whole season and Edwards has just 23 receptions. So, he needs 42 over the next 8 games in an offense where Jericho is the possession WR and the Jets are a run-first team. So, it’s very unlikely that Edwards, who has had over 65 receptions in only 2007, will reach it.