The Rundown: The Long Rhodes Back
Yesterday in the locker room postgame, there was a lot of folks looking for some answers from Kerry Rhodes. After going 12 games without an interception, how did he come by two in just one game? Coincidentally a game in which he was benched for the first time in his career? What did he do different this week that made him look like he was in his 2006 form? Does he expect to start next week after that game?
Rhodes turned to the press, pulled his hat snugly down over his eyes and adjusted it a few times and said the following:
“Coach (Rex Ryan) tried to send a message to me, I got the message, the message was sent,” said Rhodes, who had the first multi-interception game of his five-year career. “So, now I am moving on. You are going to see Kerry Rhodes, so that is all I’ve got to say.
“That’s all it takes. You saw Kerry today and that is what you will see.”
Seemingly, reporters were hoping for more, but that was all the Rhodes had to say before he left the locker room quickly. Some reporters took notice and maybe offense, like Newsday’s Wallace Matthews.
… Kerry Rhodes … found himself on the receiving end of two horrible Delhomme throws … accepted a game ball from his coach and took the occasion to bolt the locker room without taking questions.
“I think somebody’s trying to make a point,” a Jets official said disapprovingly of Rhodes’ disappearing act.
Right now, Rhodes is in a tough predicament with the press, the fans and pundits. Yesterday was a good first step to building back some of his cred, but maybe a different postgame approach would have worked better with the press. Whatever.
Getting to the football of it, Rhodes succeeded yesterday because he was in a role where he could range, and what I think is more important, had limited field to range to. Rhodes seems to play best when a team employs more of a Cover-2 shell than a Cover-1, which with Darrelle Revis the team is much more easily able to do. If the Jets can swap in and out of Coverages effectively to allow the team to blitz, but also allow Rhodes to excel in coverage, they’ll be better off for it.
For now, it’s hard to say what the team will do on Thursday. Their plan seemed to work, so I wonder how much time Smith will now see, as his eight tackles were also a big help to this secondary just like Rhodes’ two picks.
244 Responses to The Rundown: The Long Rhodes Back
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charleyjet says:
Smith played an excellent game, leading the team in tackles. He brought a physical presence to stopping the run that was definitely missing.
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Bent says: Did they literally switch roles or did Smith get Rhodes’ reps on running downs, but then they reverted back to their usual roles when both were in the game together on passing downs? It seemed like both interceptions were made with Rhodes in deep coverage which is his usual role, while Smith blitzes or covers underneath on passing downs.
Was Leonhard’s role unchanged or did he cover centerfield more than usual while Smith stepped up into the box?
And what about Digs – did he play more or less than usual?
My apologies for the questions – for technical reasons I did not get to see the game yet.
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greg sec 130 says:
Rhodes was way way deep in coverage for both picks, and for most of his PT. He was roaming on the first and kind of late to the play, I thought he was concerned that the WR would somehow make the play but at the last second he realized it was way overthrown and he got there like a centerfielder.
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Zartan says:
It’s obvious that neither Rhodes or Smith are complete players and need to continue to be used the way they were.
Kerry talking like he made impact plays is starting to make me think he’s a little goofy.
Owe revis an apology, thought Smith may be cryptonite.
Darelle, your the best!!! -
starz31 says:
someone’s got a Big Ego.
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tyrone says:
the media is wrong Rhodes don’t owe them nothin the two faced NY media boo hoo hoo just play you media people destroy somebody then want there respect typical bunch of jerks you dont pay him and as for me the fan just win baby . asking stupid questions anyway but they will run him out of town and then like always he will become a star and the media will blame jet brass assw…….es
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if i was Rhodes i would of told them go kiss brady and the giants butt
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maybe cimini and the rest of media crybabies could play the game we could call it the stupid question bowl
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Jets-Fan-4-Life says:
Shoot I missed the game anyone know where I can watch it?
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Matt says:
Anyone know what the ESPN insider rumor is on Braylon and the Jets’ future… seems negative, but most of the time these things are garbage anyways.
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Kyle says:
Hey anybody else notice Keller’s elevated play, minus the drops and fumbles, he is becoming a weapon on offense. Last three weeks he has has had at least 1 catch for 20 plus yards.
By next year he will be beastly.
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JesusRevis says:
Rhodes is frustrated for good reason. Everyone has turned their back on him and im sure it gets a bit annoying. Let the guy play and im sure he will be a vital part of a good defense for years to come.
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Brendan says:
Matt,
It’s a source-less rumor. Classic ESPN garbage.
“The biggest name moved at this season’s trade deadline, Braylon Edwards has failed to live up to even modest expectations since. Although he’s lit up the Miami Dolphins in both games against the AFC East foe (nine catches for 138 yards and two TDs over the two games), he’s had two other games where he finished with just one reception.
As the ineffective performances pile up, there’s growing speculation that this might be Edwards’ only campaign with the Jets, since his contract is up after this season. If that’s the case, Gang Green will have given up Chansi Stuckey, Jason Trusnik and two draft picks for nothing. Well, one win in six games, so not quite nothing.”
No links given or sources named. Just garbage.
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cabras says:
Zartan put it best, he is a limited player. He had some bright spots, but teams have figured out how to expose him. He is a very good athlete, and an average football player.
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the media puts down the jets and make them feel bad. im here to do the same to the media’ because when jets were 3-0 all the talk Sanchez will make mistakes .we are what we think.. its like they were saying its ok mark screw up.Iin order for any team to have success .you all have to be positive do you believe the colts are really that good .No but they believe manning will come back to win .why can we have that confidence with the jets. when all thoughts are negative nothin could go right” the jets will most likely one day leave new york .unless NY changes its attitude.
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sorry tyrone, the Jets aren’t leaving the Metro area, they did already leave NY, but planting digs inside a new multimillion $$ stadium assures me they will not leave for at least 40 years lol.
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Edwards will be back next year . we gave up 2 picks remember he changes the defense and opens the running game before him our running game was lame Sanchez and Edwards has shown signs of greatness and with this conservative look you wont see what they could do .but it will be cheaper to sign him cause his stock has fallen.
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That’s a horrible post from ESPN. Statistics don’t tell everything. Braylon has had a positive effect on our team since he’s been here. If he doesnt catch a pass, thats not his fault (depends if he dropped it, I know lol) but maybe some other WR doesnt get the ball thrown his way if Braylon isn’t on the team. We saw what defenses did to our WRs when Braylon wasn’t here. He takes coverage. He opens it up for other players. I dont even know why I’m acknowledging that Rumor…It was a brainless post.
This is my problem with statistics in football. They dont always tell the whole story.
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star 31 i dont want them to leave but it would’nt hurt to stick it to the negative people who make there stay here horrible
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NamVetJet says:
Jesus Revis said: Rhodes is frustrated for good reason. Everyone has turned their back on him and im sure it gets a bit annoying.
He should be frustrated with himself. His play this this has been less than stellar. He should have been a stand up guy yesterday and instead of talking about the message being sent—–he should have been talking about that the message was received and understood by him. Instead he reverted to the spoiled, self centered athelete stance that cannot except criticism of any sort.
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this this = this season
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whenever you show somebody you are not putting up with them anymore they change.
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Bent — seemed to me that rhodes was in for 25-35% of defensive snaps —smith played well, tackled great(got a break when a pass interference penalty on the goal line was negated by a Panther penalty) –Rhodes was not exclusively deep and did blitz at least once but didn’t get there — Leonhard had his usual role –Digs played a little more than ususal and blitzed frequently(no sacks) — Lito played surprisingly well
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Rhodes had a late-game blitz where he blasted Delhomme. 1/2 step away from a big hit sack.
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They Chose Me says:
Like I said, Rhodes is a cover 2 safety.
Whats more frustrating than his play, is his quote— now we’ll see Kerry Rhodes…….. as opposed to what? He was less comitted before? He got pissed off, so NOW he’ll grace us with his true abilities?
I was watching the game with my uncle yesterday, and every pick that fell into his lap I was cursing– they were freebies, and now he thinks he is king. Hopefully Rex doesn’t fall into that trap and keeps him in the nickel and dime still.
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Adam Schein on Jets Post Game blasted Rhodes for his post game attitude, saying he owes the media (and fans, but his first concern seemed to be the media) more. Schein is a world class idiot. Rhodes and all players owe the media and fans one thing – that they give 100% on the field. Whether they do that or not, they owe the media nothing. The media owes everything to the players – no players, no job. Rhodes had some lousy games, now he’s had a good one. He can say whatever he wants after the game, it is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is his play on the field. They should not allow people who have never played the game to report on the games – a fantasy that will never come true, I know. But the sheins, gary myers and francescas of the world, they don’t know one thing more than you or I do. They have their strong opinions like the rest of us, but who cares what they think? I would rather listen to a Phil Simms or Esiason any day of the week than some clown who has never been there and is basically clueless.
Kerry should say as much or as little as he wants to after the game. If he has bad games, the coach will sit him, good games and he’ll play. The rest is nonsense.
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I agree with NYCPE. I don’t care about his quotes to the media. Never have, really. Most player-media interactions are 90% cliche’s and the rest BS. If this new angle of “me vs. the world” is what it takes for Kerry to get his game going, then do it my friend. This is still a very good player, he just needs to keep his focus.
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The only guys I really like to listen to in the post game are Ryan (for the pure entertainment value) and Sanchez, because he is still so green that occasionally he lets something slip that he shouldn’t. The rest, as Brendan said, are pre-programmed sound bites.
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Jetsfantasydefense says:
IMO, I think he’s so overrated.
He’s always late to coverages, tackles with his shoulder instead of wrapping up, and unless he’s not touched never gets to the QB on blitzes.
Those picks yesterday were like him receiving a punt and gift b/c of pressure. I know we re-signed him, does anyone know how long?
And to top it off, he’s IMO arrogant to the media and talks trash where he’s less than a contributor. The only person who should be afforded to talk trash is Revis. Rhodes is BAAAADDDDDD!
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Jeff says:
Rhodes got lucky, like Mike Francesa said. Delhomme makes any secondary look great, he had an ok game. Great players show up against great teams, not the leading interception machine of the NFL.
If he can rattle Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer then I may thnk about giving him some respect
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brian311 says:
last year, the jets gave him a 5 year extension with $20 million guaranteed. so he will be here a while. hopefully this is a wake up call to him, and he continues to bring max effort.
also i completely agree on schein. i cant stand his whiny complaining. i loved how lucas put him in his place. i always watch jets post game live for rex’s presser and the pure comedy of ray lucas saying soemthing ridiculous. but i could do without schein. actually SNY has a bunch of guys i cant stand. chris carlin might be my most haten NY media guy
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Bent says:
Jfd – He signed a 5 year deal but he can be moved if it becomes necessary.
I disagree with your assessment, particularly the part about him always tackling with his shoulder. He’s a secure tackler usually and last week is the first time I’ve seen him do that – probably because some fans were whining that he never makes a big hit.
Let’s hope he plays well the rest of the year and I don’t really care what he says to the media, but the third person stuff is never a good idea, unless you’re Ricky Henderson.
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StvDoe says:
Adam Schein and Ray Lucas had an exteremly long arguement on the Rhodes interview during Jets Post Game Live.
Schein ranted on and on that Kerrry has an obligation to the press corps, (and by extension, the fans), and MUST answer any and all questions that they might pose. He repeated his “terrible job” catch phrase over and over.
Lucas disagreed vehemently and said Kerry did his talking on the field and his only obligation is to the team.
I’ve got mixed feelings about this. While I think Kerry tends to be full of himself, (and his “You saw Kerry today and that is what you’ll see” only reinforces that opinion), I feel he’s understandably upset both by his benching and the treatment he’s received from the media.
The bottom line, and what really matters from a team perspective, is that the benching sent a necessary message to both Kerry and the rest of the team. “If you under perform, there’s always somebody waiting in the wings who we’ll give a chance to take your job.”
It’s great that Kerry has a good game, but Eric Smith proved he deserved the chance to supplant him. I’d stick with what worked for at least another game. Kerry can chose to work harder or pout. I only hope he realizes that he’s playing for his future on this team.
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I agree that Kerry has been playing lousy up until yesterday, but give the man SOME props, at least. He had 2 picks. Were they gimmes? Yes, but how many times have you seen a db or safety drop a gimme? And why were they gimmes? Maybe he studied film and knew where on 3rd and long? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Rhodes is great, not by a long shot. I’m just saying that he man had two picks yesterday as well as at least 2 meaningful qb pressures (one was a knock down) and his play did impact the game.
As for them being the leading INT machine in the NFL, well, we had more INTS them them – up until yesterday.
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mole57 says:
mole57 finds the third person stuff annoying.
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StvDoe finds Mole 57 funny.
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bungi says:
Rhodes got blasted because he was playing horribly and deservedly so. You are making 10 million dollars you can take a little criticism. These athletes play horribly and then they think the whole world is against them and everyone wants them to fail. They then have a good game and say screw everyone nobody believed in me. Give me a break. Grow up. It is always someone else’s fault. Own up to the fact that YOU weren’t playing well, bottom line.
Eric Smith was quoted as saying, “I saw he worked harder this week and it payed off”. Hmmm.
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LMP23 says:
Two gimme interceptions and two small efforts on the returns. The Jets offense only scored 10 points which is not good enough to beat any team on the upcoming schedule.
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Players have to get over the fact their going to get criticized by the media, I don’t watch SNY, b/c I live in OH and Schein is an idiot. I still believe you have to answer the question, not care what other people think.
I want to see him attack the ball more, I have seen to many plays where he’s not involved in the tackle passive to the ball, I want to see more passes deflected. The only deflected pass i had seen was the home game against Miami.
Yes he did have two picks yesterday, and he benefits from having Revis on one side of field. Delhomme is terrible. If he makes plays against the likes of Manning or Palmer then i will shut my mouth.
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freddiesdead says:
i cud have picked those balls off
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Give the guy a break. He’s been dogged in the media (deservedly so the past two games, not deservedly so before that for the most part). If a surly, angry, PO’d Kerry Rhodes is going to bring the goods, then let him have a grudge against the media. I don’t care what the source of his motivation is, just that it’s present.
And it’s as if people will never be pleased. People wanted impact plays and he hauled in two int’s (as someone already posted, how often do you see db’s drop passes like that) 2 passes defensed and 2 QB pressures, with one resulting in a knockdown. That’s not a bad game for a guy playing 1/2 the game.
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im fine with whatever mind games rex needs to play to motivate this guy. but he just doesnt seem like a rex ryan type of player. he needs to cut the whole hollywood act and start inflicting pain on people. hopefully another year in rex’s system will help him
eric smith is a rex ryan guy. the difference between him and rhodes in run support is night and day. smith is always looking to kill someone.
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fonzie says:
Brendan:
You mean like the “old Mangini Days” that you guys were soooo dead against!
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Fonzie it is remarkable how you try to make everything about Mangini. If you’re so enamored by him as a person go ask him out on a date or to be his personal assistant gratis.
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Davo says:
“Rhodes succeeded yesterday because he was in a role where he could range”
Rhodes succeeded yesterday in part because he was playing a horrible Panthers team, lead by a horrible QB, at home.
No one is high on Leigh Bodden after he was thrown to 3 times by Sanchez, and rightly so.
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Brendan:
No, It’s just interesting how you now find Rhodes playing centerfield like “the old days” suddenly encouraging. That’s all, just a simple observation.
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Oh, Hank, I thought I was talking to Fonzie. It’s not like I think every single thing that happened under Mangini’s tenure was horrific on an epic scale, but I didn’t like his overall job and think he’s a bad coach. Rhodes thrived in his 2-deep system. Whoopty doo.
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SackDance99 says:
Rhodes played well in the role assigned to him by the coaching staff. He was demoted because, in this defense, he was not a complete player, like Ed Reed. In obvious passing downs, Rhodes can be a beast. Smith, on the other hand, can really hit and with more playing time could easily become the type of complete safety that would be a perfect complement to Leonhard. Hopefully, these guys can push each other because, all things being equal, Rhodes has the potential to be a great player, while Smith’s ceiling is to play Fencik to Leonhard’s Plank.
For all you Drew Coleman haters, yesterday he had a great game, including a monster hit and a great PD. I’ll say this again, the Jets’ secondary is deep and good…let’s get a pass rusher in the draft, the secondary is set.
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Bent says:
So, Mangini deserves credit for Rhodes (who was already coming off a great rookie year) but you’ve been complaining about him since Mangini was still coach, so doesn’t he deserve any of the blame for his supposed downfall? No, of course not.
In Kerry’s best season he did most of his damage in the box, a role Mangini removed him from.
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Beginning to think that Fonzie is Mangini
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Yeah our nonexistant pass rush showed up yesterday and we killed their run game. If it wasnt for those 2 big runs on third down they had we would have held them to around 50yds
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Brendan:
Okay, ok. At least got you to acknowledge ONE positive Mangini strategy that is, how can i say it, “aucontraire” to the flogging he got in this blog. Maybe, maybe, slowly, piece by piece I can get you to admit he wasn’t as bad as all sharks thought.
Smith and Rhodes are polar opposite. Smith challanges you physically, while Rhodes generally is like I said last year, “a day late and five yards short” on most tackles. With a little more experience under Ryan, Smith will be twice the safety Rhodes is.
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Hank,
No, you won’t. I still think Mangini is terrible and that has nothing to do with the media. I use my own eyes, knowledge, and opinions to judge professional athletes. As I have more experience in actual athletics than 90% of the people covering them, I tend to ignore them. I think Mangini was terrible for my own variety of reasons. And, as Bent pointed out, Rhodes’ best season was before Mangini got here.
Smith plays the run well, Rhodes the pass well. I wouldn’t say that Smith is physically challenging while Rhodes is off picking dandelions before games. Each has his shortcomings, but one that Smith won’t be able to overcome is his range, which is at best 2/3 of what Rhodes’ is. If they continue to split the work, motivating them in the process (in order to become the full-time safety), I think it will only help this team.
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Brendan, best part of your post was how this relates to the success of our team. Totally agree. The mix and match may just be what is needed right now. Rex and Mangini both demanded much out of Rhodes and he didn’t deliver, consistently. Maybe it’s time to step back, like with what Rex did yesterday.
Either way, your post focused on our team. Hank and Mangini/Fonzie grasp at the myth Mangini was a good coach. Pretty much everything I’ve read from Hank in the past few weeks has always been centered in someway around Mangini, be it with Sanchez, Rhodes, or Braylon. Last I checked, Mangini no longer is employed with the Jets franchise. Might as well focus on the present.
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Brendan:
Mangini elevated Rhodes game two fold. If you and Bent believe that Hollowood Rhodes was a better player in ’05 BEFORE Mangini got a hold of him, then we have no discussion here. End of story!!
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Rhodes should be benched again. So what if he was able to make 2 picks against a crummy QB (its not like he picked off Tom Brady)…and he still can’t tackle when he needs too!
Start Smith until Rhodes attitude and playing abilities get better, and if the team must trade him at the end of the season!
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miketaliaferro says:
~ Revis and Rhodes each had both a tough catch and a gimme on their pics. Revis’ 2nd was a gorgeous catch as he out-positioned and out-fought the receiver. The pic-6 bounced right to the spot he was standing in, which allowed him to waltz to paydirt. Rhodes’ 1st seemed a result of smart and agressive play. His 2nd was an atrocious throw that went straight to him in centerfield with no one within 5 yds. of him. If he’d dropped that one, he’d probably would have been cut.
~ Enjoyed the Schein / Lucas cage match on the postgame. Dopey argument, but it made for the best TV since they’ve been doing the show.
~ Before this goes any further in the media — just from the game I saw — I thought immediately after the game that BOTH E. Smith and Rhodes brought their A-games. Whether it was just the fleeting emotion or a surprisingly smart scheme, whatever they did yesterday worked really well. Egos aside, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same set-up, or be disappointed if it happened.
~ That said, this may well get ugly before it gets any better. Listening to Schein, then reading Cannizarro today, it certainly looks like the beat guys and extended punditry will jump on the Press (HEARTS) Smith bandwagon to lay a smackdown on Kerry for being pissed at them. I know football runs almost entirely on emotion — I didn’t realize typing on a keyboard did as well.
~ What scares me even more is what’s going on in the clubhouse. Didn’t take long for a few un-named players to pop up, ripping a bit out of Kerry’s hide last week. Made sense, but I would have preferred it if they said it behind closed doors, not to Cimini et al. That crap would make me feel worse than my boss being pissed at me, and may have fueled the postgame terseness. Whatever happened to the “Cortland bonding”? Notice how, postgame, everyone had Kerry’s back? Wonder where they all were on Wednesday? So — are there factions alive in the room? Finger-pointing? I wonder who the true leaders are in that room and what they’re currently working on, to keep this team hanging together?
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Bent says:
Statistically, his best year wasn’t before Mangini arrived, it was in Mangini’s first year. However, during that year, Rhodes had limited coverage responsibilities, because Vilma was being dropped into coverage. This enabled him to do more playmaking in the box. Since then, he’s been given more responsibilities.
Rhodes has had good and bad games before, during and after the Mangini “era”. Therefore, my conclusion is that how well Rhodes plays has more to do with Kerry Rhodes and nothing to do with Mangini.
I don’t believe Rhodes was a better player before Mangini got hold of him (although it’s possible he was playing better then than he did the last couple of weeks). However, he was a very good player already, so to give Mangini all the credit and none of the blame is nonsense.
I don’t have an issue with saying that Rhodes played well under Mangini or giving Mangini some of the credit. It’s the contradiction in the fact that Mangini “made” him and yet (according to you) he has been playing poorly back when Mangini was still coaching him, therefore he went backwards under Mangini’s watch.
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TB says:
ESPN Insider is reporting that Braylon Edwards is done after this year with the jets! Is there any truth to this? I mean what a waste of draft picks that would have been but I cannot see paying this guy big money!
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Bent says:
Having read the report, they seem to have arrived at that conclusion out of thin air.
I expect they will bring Braylon back and he was talking about wanting to come back a few days ago.
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WhitePlainsJetFan1776 says:
Not that i really care, because i’m a Jet fan anyway….but why the heck does Carolina continue to start Jake Delhomme?? He looks terrible out there. He cannot handle the blitz to save his life, and he throws up erroneous jump balls for interception on almost every drive! It was only 14-3 at half time…but just based on how Jake had played ijn the first half, I knew carolina was not going to come back and beat us in the second half.
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Oh and on the topic, I agree start Eric Smith. He plays harder and the guy can lay the wood when he has to.
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Bent says:
Re: Delhomme – It is probably because they gave him a big contract extension at the start of the year.
To be fair to him, after a shaky start, he had been playing OK since their bye week. He had a broken finger yesterday though, so that might sideline him anyway. I don’t know if that affected him in the game or not.
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Great to see my boy Kerry response with a nice game. I could do without the post game “now youll see the real Kerry Rhodes” nonsense but the guy is clearly annoyed he was benched and probably was shocked by “rumors” from the lockeroom.
Continue to start Smith until we lose a game. Kerry can rotate in more and more.
I know I am late to the party on this game but how great is D Revis?? The guy is a effing superstar!
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Bryan says:
Did anyone else notice what Rhodes did on the 1st Revis intercept (off the foot)? I had to run it back to check because Rhodes walked off the field after he saw Revis catch the ball and start running to score. HE WALKED OFF THE FIELD. I wasn’t sure whetehr he thoguth it was an incompletion or what, but Revis had the ball and was running, some Jets went into blocking mode. Rhodes WALKED OFF THE FIELD. Check it out.
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Bryan, he definitely thought it was intercepted. You can see people on the sidelines pointing to him and yelling, which means he definitely didn’t think the play was still going.
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thought it WASN’T
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Oh and Hank,
As Bent basically laid it out for you, you can’t claim Mangini built Rhodes, but then think Mangini had nothing to do with Rhodes’ downward spiral last season.
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Bent:
Sorry I answered late, just got back.
There is no contradiction. Kerry was/is a good back. However Mangini got him to Pro-Bowl status by pulling his head out of his butt and go him to take a leadership role on the D. He screamed for a new contract in ’07 with two yrs remaining and Mangini got him a BIG extension in ’08. He repaid Mangini by Bad Mouthing him after he got fired.
Once he got his “Fat Cat” millionaire stutus his focus was on hisHollywood “after Life” and not on his real and present life. That Bent, is not a contradiction. -
Haha Hank,
So Mangini builds him up and the root of all evil (money) is what turns him bad? You always find an excuse for Mangini.
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Edwards won’t be going anywhere next year, since it’ll be uncapped he’ll be a RFA not a FA. The NYJ will have the ability to match any offer after they tender and receive 2 1st round picks as compensation if he goes. If he’s smart he’ll offer a home town discount and stay right where he is, after playing in Cleveland there’s no place to go but up and the Jets will continue to improve. By the way, Fat Charlie isn’t going anywhere but home for the holidays, basking in the warm embrace of Bill and Tom. Scary mental picture, back to therapy.
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Bent says:
Golden – I agree, if the stories about the Jets not wanting to retain him are true (which I doubt), they’ll tender him and then trade him to another team (which would then mean that they hadn’t wasted the picks). I don’t think they will retain him on a one-year tender because I expect him to seek an extension and them to grant him it, especially if the uncapped year affords them an opportunity for frontloading. We’ll see though.
And, yes, I don’t expect the Jets to be in the mix for Weis, but you never know.
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If the Jets don’t keep Edwards, how do they replace him? I can’t believe the Jets traded Stuckey, Trusnik and a 3rd rounder to then trade Edwards, again. Unless the Jets coaching staff has decided that Edwards’ attitude is toxic, I just don’t see the wisdom of getting rid of him. He’s too talented and too young to trade away.
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Joe B. says:
Anyone who advocates letting Braylon go or trading him is delusional. The guy is a stud (yes, he drops passes from time to time) and his staggered production is more due to Sanchez’ growing pains than anything he’s doing wrong. Mark my words, if he stays he’ll have a big year next season when Sanchez is less up-and-down. If he gets let go, I will be extremely disappointed. Braylon/Cotch/Keller is a 1-2-3 punch unlike any I’ve seen in my years as a Jet fan.
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Bent says:
Just to be clear, I don’t think they’ll let him go and nor should they. I only commented because of the baseless espn insider report that he might not return.
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Bent:
Edwards has made it clear that he doesn’t want to go anywhere. Anywhere OUTSIDE of NEW YORK i believe.
So, as long as the Jets tender a reasonable offer he will stay. The problem I have is the RFA status. What if the Giants offered him a ton and the Jets don’t match?
I also dont see how the jets can recoup the draft choices this guy cost.SD99:
Didn’t the Jets give up Trusnik, Stuckey, a 3rd AND a 5th? Mangini must be crying all the way to the draft.
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Hank -
Are you serious? Mangini will be lucky to live to see the draft.
And the Giants had their chances at Braylon in the offseason and decided against it. I doubt they’ll think revise that stance with the strides they’ve seen from Smith, Manningham and Nicks this season.
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Bent says:
Hank – if the giants offered Braylon a ton and the jets didn’t match, the jets would get two first round compensatory picks.
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Closer to the original topic, I’d like to commend Angel on a good piece written on Bleacher Report. Pretty much articulates my feelings about yesterday’s Kerrydrama.
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I missed the game, anyone know where I can watch it online?
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Bent:
Forgive my ignorance, but why MUST the Jets receive TWO 1st round compensatory picks on a RFA?
Aren’t compensatory picks awarded in rounds 3 to 7th?
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Joe B.
The Giants DK’d the trade because it was understoood Mangini wanted two 1st round picks for Edwads and Mangini wouln’t budge.
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Dylan says:
Bent,
Wouldn’t the Jets only get two first round picks from the Giants (or any other team) if they put the franchise tag on Braylon? -
If a team signs a RFA it does the same thing. If a team offers a RFA an offer sheet, the player accepts, and the team he is currently on declines to match, then the new team has to compensate with picks. I believe since Braylon was a first round selection they get 1 first rounder for the other team signing him to an offer sheet and one since Braylon was a first round pick. I could be a little off though.
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I think the Jets would receive a first and a third round pick if they decided not to match another teams offer sheet.
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Brendan:
Compesatory picks are given out based on value lost comared to value gained during free agency. If you loose a greater value player than you sign you get a compensatory pick anywhere from the third to the eigth round.
I do not know of any FIRST round “compensatory” picks.
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Hank I am aware about the compensatory picks you’re talking about. RFA’s net the team they’re signed away from additional picks. It’s definitely multiple picks, one being a first and the other being a 3rd or another 1st. Neither sounds more correct to me, but you definitely get 2 high picks for having a RFA signed away from you, which is why RFA is so valuable to the team.
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Dyland;
Where does it say the Jets WILL get a 1st and third in the right of first refusal?
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It’s the same process as a franchise tag, basically.
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hank/naples,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_free_agent
I’m pretty sure Braylon would command a first and third round picks as a direct result of losing Braylon Edwards. It is different than the compensatory picks (rounds 3-7) that are rewarded to teams each year depending on how many players they gain/lose in free agency. Again, I’m not 100% positive but I think thats how it works. -
Wow sorry about the grammatical errors
I meant to say: I’m pretty sure the Jets would get a first and third round pick… -
From what I’m reading, it’s a first and a 3rd for braylon, since he will be tendered at 110% this year’s salary.
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Here is what I’m reading:
The player’s original team (Jets) maintains the Right of First Refusal and First Round Draft Selection and Third Round Draft Selection (both from the team with which he signs) if the team tenders an offer of one year at $2.792 million OR at least 110% of the player’s prior year’s salary — whichever is greater.
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Dylan:
If the Jets make the Playoffs, and right now it looking better every day because NO is winning 24-10 , then the picks, compensatory or otherwise, will have value for Edwards. If the Jets don NOT make the playoffs, I doubt very highly the Giants or others, will give more than a second for Edwards.
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Hank, it isn’t an option. He’s going to be a RFA and the Jets will tender him a qualifying offer. If a team signs him to a deal they must give us a first and a third. That’s our compensation since he is a RFA.
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hank/naples,
Brendan has it right. The Giants or whatever other team wont get to choose how much they give up if they want him. Unless the Jets decide to trade him for less, the compensation would be a first and third rounder. Its the same type of thing that happened this past offseason when the Jets were considering offering Miles Austin a contract. A lot of people on this site were suggesting that the Jets only give up a third or fourth rounder instead of a second round pick, but that isn’t how it works. I think Braylon Edwards will be a Jet next season. -
Brendan/Dylan:
Fully understand the tender/compensatory picks bit. BUT, if the Jets don’t make the playoffs, no one will give the mandatory 1st &3rd, 1st or 2nd round picks for Edwards.
Bray-Bray is smart. He knows which side of the toast is buttered. That is why he emphaticaly said that he WANTS to stay with the Jets. He must prove his value and that will be in the playoffs. If the Jets don’t make it, his value would’ve dropped worse than a cheap house.
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hank/naples,
I don’t understand how the Jets making the playoffs makes a difference. Please explain. -
Damn these Saints are playing smash mouth footbal
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Eddie DiGio says:
Hank
Its either the Jets sign him to the tender offer OR any team that wants him has to give up a 1st and 3rd.
If what you are trying to say is that no one will want Braylon Edwards if the Jets dont make the playoffs, thats a different story
BUT
like Dylan and Brendan said
If the Jets tender him and another team wants him, its a 1st and 3rd, no negotiating, end of story
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Up until this drive, the only reason the NE -Saints game was close is bc NE gets every chippy call. Regardless of the score, the Saints are physically beating the piss out of Brady and Co
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and let’s not forget our defense did a good job against this unit. Dayme.
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Dylan:
It’s not hard. First it must be acknowledged that Braylon’s value has dropped during the last seven weeks. If the jets do not turn it arround and make the playoffs, then his value will continue to diminish. The result will be that the Jets will NOT recover the value given to the Browns for him. I do NOT believe ANYONE will give a first round, period, for Edwards. Maybe a second round but I doubt it.
On the other hand, if the Jets do make the playoffs and Braylon proves his worth in doing so, and if the Jets decide not to keep Braylon, then that is the only way the Jets may get a 1st and a 3rd.
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Hank,
I don’t know why you’re talking about anything other than a first and third. Jets are going to tender him a qualifying offer. So you can just speak as if that has happened and realize that they will either get Braylon, or a first and a third. Them reaching the playoffs or his production has nothing to do with that compensation.
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Basically, they would tender him for $4.785 million. That’s it. That’s his current base salary plus 10%. So it’s either someone offers him more and we get a first and a third, the Jets extend him, he plays for that much for next season, or the Jets don’t tender him and he becomes an unrestricted free agent.
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hank/naples,
Receivers are not valued on winning. They are valued on their on field production, potential, and the stats they put up. If anything, teams would take into account that he has had 3 inconsistent QB’s throwing to him (Quinn/Anderson/Sanchez (because he is a rookie) which would obviously hinder his production. If a team wants Braylon badly enough, they will have to give up a first and a third. If not, the Jets will keep him which is what will most likely happen. -
Take a look at the best receivers in football:
Andre Johnson- has NEVER been on winning team
Larry Fitzgerland- didn’t win anything until last year
Randy Moss- had some winning seasons and also some losing seasons
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Bent says:
Hank -
Yes, those comp picks you described are for unrestricted free agents.
I made a slight mistake in saying it would be two first rounders, but they can give him the max tender and end up with a 1st and 3rd if they are unable to match any offer. If they wanted to trade him, then they might go for a lower tender (say 2nd round) which would make it more likely that a team would bid for him and would recoup the value they lost.
I think they’ll want to keep him though and tendering him ensures they either do, or are compensated handsomely. If his value has dropped then maybe it makes a long term extension easier to complete.
It’s if you franchise a player and they’re picked up by another team that you get two firsts. If there’s no cap, that won’t be necessary, but if a cap is agreed before next year, then that’s another option. The only way I can see them losing him for nothing is if there is a cap and someone bids crazy money for him, but even that can be prevented with a franchise tag, while they look to extend him.
Tannenbaum knew this when the trade was completed – you obviously didn’t. Maybe the trade was a lot better than you think.
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Bent;
You said: “Tannenbaum knew this when the trade was completed – you obviously didn’t. Maybe the trade was a lot better than you think”.
I guess Tannenbaum must be closer to a GOD than we all think because he must also know that THERE WILL BE NO CBA this year that would make Edwards a RFA.
Also
Edwards has already clearly stated that he WANTS/WILLING to stay with the Jets, that this is the best possible scenario for him, could’nt be happier, etc, etc.. Made it sound like he will listen to reasonable offers. That means Suck-up would be dumber than he looks if he Franchized Him.
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Bent says:
Eh, i’d say it was a calculated risk. The Jets have erred on the side of caution and prepared for either eventuality, which is not the case for all teams. However, no cap is looking increasingly likely.
I’m not suggesting Braylon will be franchised in order to pay him the franchise tender, just to protect themselves against losing him for nothing while they negotiate long term, then if another team wants to negotiate with him, they will lose picks (or the teams can agree a trade). Either they’ll keep him or they’ll end up with compensation, cap or no cap (in fact, even if they lost him as a UFA there would be compensatory picks coming back).
You know I don’t think Tannenbaum is a god. Don’t be facetious.
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Dylan;
You absolutely have a point. The only problem is Braylon has NOT achieved that status all all. On the contrary, Braylons peputation as stone hands, indisciplined receiver, bragadocious party animal is widely known and preceds him.
Therefore, he must hope, for his own value’s sake, that the Jets make the Playoffs so he can disprove at least 2/3 of his reputation and what better, quicker place than the BIG stage.
You see Dylan, Bray-Bray is very, very much like the Clean-up hitter in baseball, he hits 300 but has only 70 RBI leaving lots, and lots of runners on second base!!!
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Bent:
When you franchise a player, don’t you have to pay him the average salary of the 5 highest players at his position?
Why would the Jets even entertain the idea when ,again, he made it clear he would accept a resonable offer to stay.And why would they want to sign him to multi years in view of whats going on arround him?
Also, you seem to agree with me while beign argumentative.
My original comment was that the Jets WOULD get compensation if they trade him, not ver high, but compensation nonetheless.If everything remains equal,THERE IS NO WAY the jets will get back ANYTHING close to what they gave up for him. Regardless how you present it.
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Bent says:
Yes, Hank, but as I was trying to explain, they would never actually pay him that, they would just use the tag to protect his rights while they negotiated. Then they are free to rescind it at any time and make a long term deal. It’s common practice. If there’s no cap, it’s moot anyway because he’s an RFA.
I was merely trying to point out how compensation will be paid, so I note you’ve made that point too. I disagree that it won’t be as much as they gave up. I’d expect at least a 2,, which according to the draft value chart is equivalent to a 3, a 5, a mid rounder (Stuckey) and a low rounder (Trusnik).
Even if there’s no RFA or franchise tag (highly unlikely), they would still recoup a 3rd rounder from UFA compensation, so the one year rental only cost them Stuckey, Trusnik and a 5th…total value = low third or high 4th.
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Hopefully Hank finally gets it.
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Bent:
You must be in sales. If not, you should definitely be.
Only you can make Trusnik, Stuckey, a 3rd, and a 5th equal in value to a 2nd.
Ask Westhoff how much he values Trusnik.
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subwayfare says:
I can’t believe people are still arguing over whether the Edwards trade was a “win” for the Jets or Browns. I see the trade as very much a non-zero-sum game.
I’d be surprised if the Jets didn’t sign Edwards to a deal with nice upside for him and some sort of protection for the team if he reverts to Bad Braylon.
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Hank,
It isn’t Bent pulling value out of thin air. Go look at a darft chart, each pick is assigned a value. I’m sure you know this. I don’t know why you’re arguing this point still when Bent, myself and Dylan are clearly, non-negotiably, correct on the issue.
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Bent says:
No, I am hopeless at sales because I am too honest!
Trusnik is doing really well, but at the time of the trade, he was a backup that only played on special teams. No way he would have ever fetched more than a 7th rounder in a trade.
Per the draft value chart:
http://www.draftcountdown.com/features/Value-Chart.php
A mid second rounder is worth 400 points
A mid third and fifth are worth 180+33 = 213 points
Let’s say Trusnik is worth a 7th = 7 points, that’s 220
And let’s say Stuckey is worth a 3rd = 180 points, that’s 400 in totalNote: It’s probably a stretch to suggest Stuckey is worth a 3rd.
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Brendan:
So, if you were to follow that system of accounting, then you must say T. Brady is only worth a sixth !
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Hank,
You are unbelievable. Bent said “at the time of the trade.” At the time of the trade, Stuckey had 120 yards and 1 td in four games. At the time of the trade, Trusnik had 6 tackles and a forced fumble on special teams. So, at the time of the trade, it’s absurd to think Trusnik would have net anything, even a 7th rounder. Bent is being nice and giving Stuckey a 3rd round value, but in reality at that point he would’ve been a 5th at best.
Ok, not go ahead and twist this some more to try to fit your argument.
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Johnny Reefer says:
When will everyone learn that Hank is a foolish fool and that he knows nothing about football.
He still thinks the browns are a better team with mangina and his crew then the jets now.
Browns are by far the worst football team in the league and they have nothing to look forward too. That is why, there is talk of their games being blacked out. Nobody wants to watch those bums. And the brown fans cant stand mangina.
Trusnik and Stuckey are also bums. The trade was an obvious steal for the Jets.
Sure Edwards numbers aren’t what we hoped for when the trade happened, but the TEAM, also isn’t what we hoped for at the time of the trade.
We are gonna keep Edwards, all these reports that we aren’t is just the media looking for ways to rip the jets more. It’d be stupid if we didn’t. Sanchez is gonna be amazing in the next few years with this Receiving Core we have now.
Now what we need to do, is start having Sanchez study the hell out of Drew Brees, and the next OC, start game planning the offense to one similar to the Saints. If Sanchez plays the same as any QB in the league it is Brees, they just look so similar out there. Besides Brees being lights out and Sanchez being a rookie. But Brees was also a bum for his first 3 years.
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I said the exact same thing in the “puppets” thread. Brees is as good a model for Sanchez as there is.
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Haha Hank is one of my lone sources of entertainment while i’m at work.
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hank/naples,
Even if Braylon’s value goes down by the Jets missing the playoffs, which it wont, it only benefits the Jets because it would allow them to sign him at a lower price. Braylon isn’t going to get paid 9m/yr by any team, so I don’t see why he wouldn’t sign with the Jets. His off-field issues might be a small concern to some teams, but that only benefits the Jets, assuming they want to resign him. I hope Braylon is back in green and white next yr, but if not, they should be compensated fairly.And btw Trusnik is only worth about a 6th or a 7h, and Stuckey only around a 4th rounder. I like Stuckey, but a #1 receiver is MUCH more important than a good slot receiver. And the Jets already have a ton of talented special teamers.
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Bent says:
Reefer – Hank may have misinterpreted some of the rules, but there’s no need for the name calling.
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The Edwards deal was a steal for the Jets. A bona fide no. 1 WR, which Braylon is from a talent standpoint, takes a top 10 pick or you have to be very lucky in the draft. Plus, WRs have one of the steepest learning curves in football, especially multi-dimension threats like Edwards (pure speed guys can often make a quicker impact).
Trusnick, Stuckey, a third and fifth aren’t worth Edwards’ replacement value, which would be a top 10 pick or 1,300 points for a no. 10. I just don’t see how anyone can view this as a good deal for the Browns…they traded 400 (at most) points worth of players for a guy at least worth 1,300 points (and likely more). Moreover, the Browns could’ve gotten more from teams, like the Giants, if they had dealt Edwards before the draft. Since the Giants drafted Nicks in the 1st and Barden in the 3rd, it’s not a stretch to think that they would’ve given that up for Edwards. So, the Browns could have, in theory, gotten 805 points (29th and 85th picks).
No matter how you slice it, the Browns blundered with Edwards, like they did with Winslow, or giving Anderson a big contract, or trading up to draft Quinn, or drafting Couch or Frye, etc. At least I’m not a Browns fan!
Also, if there’s one team that I think might try to sign Edwards, it would be Miami. Henne knows Edwards from Michigan, they need a no. 1 WR and Parcells has signed RFAs before, like C-Mart.
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Hank, what is your fascination with the Browns, Mangini, Stuckey, and Trusnick? I just don’t get it. You are seriously hoping Braylon Edwards fails as a Jet WR because then you can wash your hands and will not have to accept that the trade we made with the Browns, was in fact, a very good trade for the Jets. It’s comical and actually a little alraming that you would rather Braylon fail as a Jet just so you can save face. We have gone over this topic to ad nasuem. it’s annoying at this point.
We traded away scrubs and depth pieces for an elite WR that we desperately needed, at a fraction of the cost his former team was seeking in the summer. I’m a Jets fan. This trade improved my team. I, and other posters here, have no reason and have seen no reason to think this trade was a failure, could be a failure, or even will be a failure. Seriously dude, man up.
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I don’t think it was a particularly good move for the Browns, but it wasn’t a terrible move for them either since there was no way Edwards was going to resign. The Browns made a terrible decision though, by waiting until his value was at its lowest before trading him. During the offseason it was reported that the Giants were willing to give up a 2nd, a 5th, and Manningham which is MUCH better than the Jets gave up. Supposedly the Browns rejected the offer because they wanted Steve Smith instead. Basically, the Browns passed on a potential #1 receiver (Manningham), a 2nd round pick, and a 5th for a slot receiver, a special teamer, and lower picks. I’m sorry to say but the Browns handled the Edwards situation TERRIBLY, since they waited til he has little value before dealing him.
The Jets on the other hand took advantage of his legal issue and his lack of production in Cleveland to get Edwards for very little.
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Manningham is 23 and might end up with 1000 receiving yards! Here is the link:
http://www.giantsgab.com/2009/03/22/report-giants-considered-trading-for-braylon-edwards/ -
I feel bad for you guys that you have to keep arguing with this guy when Dylans last post ALONE totally refutes any notion that Mangini and the Browns came out on the sweet end of the deal
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thats the best part Eddie…any way you look at the trade, from any perspective, its all the same answer = that the Jets made a very good trade. Its just comical how biased any argument against the trade is at this point.
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Bent/Bendran/Dylan
Just want to give you a couple of facts about Bray-Bray.
The guy you fleeced Mangini by giving him four players.138 passes targeted
83 passes NOT caught
55 passes caught
18 passes dropped39.8% total percentage of passes caught
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Hank,
How about you put off your non-stop Mangini lap-dog act, in regards to this trade, until next draft. Or until Mangini gets fired, whichever comes first? My money is on a firing, but if he somehow does make it to the draft, let’s see his mastery of all things football in the 3rd and 5th rounds. Deal? Can we agree to that?
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Brendan:
Your affinity to turn all my arguments towards Mangini is getting stale.
I gave you FACTS about Edwards and your only respose is relate it to a “Mangini lap dog act”? It’s weak to say the least Brendan. I give you more credit than that.
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Congrats, you are starting to learn. Use facts to back up your arguments. But on one of the other threads, in regards to this trade, you said Mangini would be “laughing all the way to the draft”. And I’m sorry if this argument was lumped in with all the others that you DO bring Mangini into (scroll up and you’ll see this convo started about Rhodes and you chimed in referring to what I called the “good old days” insinuating that Mangini was the responsible party). Don’t get mad because I will call you out on loving all things Mangini.
As for the trade. We can go over this ad nauseum. The Jets needed a stud WR. They gave up a slot receiver. They gave up a backup LB and special teams player. They gave up a 3rd and a 5th.
In return they got a game-changing WR. Regardless of what his drops would imply, he has an impact on every game. He’s big, requires doubles all game and eases the pressure in the box. So, would I rather have a backup LB, a slot receiver, and two depth/bench guys (assuming those picks go as swimmingly as the ones from this year), or a game-changing, offense-altering legitimate #1 WR?
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Brendan:
I don’t love Mangini. I follow him, I very much respect him from what I read, I I defend him because he is abused and his character is slandered by the media sharks and their “fans”. And most of all, he DESERVES to do well.
AND, regarding THE TRADE, I only followed up on your post of 9:47 AM. Beyond that you, Bent and Dylan kept moving the goalposts on player value during the draft,, then at the time of the trade and so on. My position has been from the PRESENT perspective (present player value) ie. how the trade looks today and will look if the Jets do not make the playoffs.
This is why my question as to’ How valuable Westhoff now thinks Trusnik is’ was ignored by you guys.
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hank/naples,
I think Mangini is a terrible coach. For all I know he is a great person, but that isn’t what matters when it comes to coaching. I am not going to say he is a terrible person because I don’t know him. You can defend his honor all you like.Regarding the trade, what do YOU think Stuckey and Trusnik are worth now? You keep on asking us how valuable Westhoff thinks he is which is stupid since nobody on here including yourself know the answer to that.
Personally, I think Stuckey is worth a 4th/5th and Trusnik is worth a 5th/6th. Even if I use the higher value for each Stuckey and Trusnik it is still a great deal for the Jets. The Jets gave up Stuckey (4th), Trusnik (5th), 3rd, 5th which all together have the value of a mid to late 2nd round pick. That means that even if you overvalue Stuckey and Trusnik, the Jets still got Braylon for only a mid to late 2nd round pick.
The Browns made a terrible move by not trading him to the Giants. They could have gotten a 2nd round pick (which is app. the total value of what the Jets gave up) AND a potential number one receiver for Braylon.
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I dont get this Mangini CHARACTER stuff…
-The guy got his first NFL job bc he went to the same school and was in the same fraternity as Belichick, otherwise the conversation in the film room between the two would not have gotten past “thank you” “your welcome” or :”could you please…”
-He then rides his coattails ( he got promoted cause Crennel became a HC and NE does not hire from outside the org) to fame and success by being surrounded by HOF talented players and coaches, and bolts for his mentors hated rival after one season as a coordinator in which he didnt even call the plays, even after BB told him he wasnt ready and that he would get another coaching job down the line if he stuck around
-The same guy who gave him his start thinks so little of him now that he wont even acknowledge he exists. Not to mention the fact that no one is missing Eric Mangini in NE. That team didnt skip a beat after he left.
I dont call that character, I call that being lucky. I call it being a gravy train rider, I call it being a fat spoiled brat.
Rex Ryan overcame a learning disability (dyslexia), and despite his Dad being arguably the best Defensive mind in the history of football, had to climb the ranks through high school, junior college, mid level D1, major college D1, position coach in the NFL, coordinator then finally HC.
In my book, that is paying your dues no matter who Daddy was and overcoming adversity
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Bent says:
Hank – going by your logic, moving up for DeWayne Robertson was a great trade because the guys picked with the picks they gave up sucked worse than he did.
At the time of the trade, they got him for good value andcsince he arrived, the offense has been statistically better – even without Leon (and with Cotch and Smith also missing time).
The kicker is that I never wanted to trade for Braylon, but he was such a bargain I am now happy with the deal.
They didn’t waste the value because (as outlined) they’ll retain him or acquire back value equivalent to what they gave up.
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Dylan:
I have no problemwith your opinion of mangini as a coach and In some things I completely agree with you.
What I dispise is the frontrunners/wagoneers piling on drunk with media koolaide trying to destroy his his character with unfounded heresay and drive him as far as they can from his livelyhood, his passion.
As far as THE TRADE goes, I’ve stated ( and many others) that every day the Jets are loosing more and more value.
Looking from todays perspective, the total sum of todays value the Browns received outweighs the value the Jets got. If you ask Westhoff what was Trusniks true (real) value to the team at the time of the trade, would he say he played like a UFA? Would you say what Bent said, that he is WORTH 7 POINTS? Are you serious?
Take a look at the REAL FACTS about Edwards on my post of 5;59 PM then tell me how the Browns got fleeced. Don’t tell me what a PAPER VALUE system says.
Lets deal in true flesh.Tell me what a players TRUE worth to his team is !!!
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Hank, if you truly believe in the things that you say, then you are basically saying that everyone else that posts on this site is a moron. You are always in 100% disagreement with everyone, so im pretty sure its obvious who is wrong here, and every other time.
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Ok Hank,
Trusnik’s true worth to this team was that of a 6th or 7th round project linebacker. Oh, wait, that’s what he was in reality as well. The guy didn’t play outside of ST’sand wasn’t even the first LB off the bench (even when Mangini was here, so don’t use that as an excuse). You’re looking at him starting a few games and think he’s a star, but look at what he did before the trade, because that’s where his value was. He forced a fumble from a guy who is only known for fumbling. He also fumbled a punt in that same game, so temper your excitement for that play by Trusnik.
Stuckey was a decent receiver. Maybe with a guy like Braylon next to him he could have been a Welker-type of player (just not nearly as productive), but Stuckey’s been less-than-stellar since going to the Browns. He had one good game (against the Lowly Lions, mind you) and since you love your dropped passes stats, here’s one for you: Stuckey dropped 4 passes against Cincy on Sunday. And in the AFC leaders in dropped passes, Stuckey is tied for fourth while Braylon is…not even in the top 20 of the AFC? Isn’t that interesting? Where on Earth did you find your 18 dropped passes stat, judging by those numbers I’m guessing they’re from last season? I’m looking at the Washington Post’s database and don’t see Edwards isn’t even on the list, for this year.
3rd & 5th picks. Since there aren’t bodies here we can only use the numbering system which has been discussed enough that I’ll assume you understand it.
So that’s what we gave up. We got back a game-changing, offense-altering, 6’3 beast of a WR who can do it all talent-wise and whose dropping issues are not nearly as bad as you seem to think.
And who here attacks Mangini’s character? We don’t care about his character. We cared that he was a terrible coach who we felt would never lead this team to the Superbowl. I honestly don’t care if our coach is the biggest A-hole on Earth, winning makes fans love everyone, just ask a Pats fan.
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Bent:
I Don’t understand what you mean by ..”Hank – going by your logic, moving up for DeWayne Robertson was a great trade because the guys picked with the picks they gave up sucked worse than he did.”
The Jets, more specifically Bradway/Edwards pawned the Jets future by giving away TWO (2) 1st rd and I think a fouth for Robertson. I mean I LOVED this guys heart and motor, but he was too small and did NOT fit Manginis 3-4….the rest is history.
As for THE TRADE( II ) (THE TRADE( I )was Farve) yes, you are right. We have all agreed from day one that Braylon would help open the offense up.
But, as you have noticed, teams are starting to stack the box again and challenging Franchez to throw, so even that benefit has been somewhat short lived.However, the same effect and MUCH MORE could have been had for a much lesser value….. MAYBE ehr, hum…MIles Austin for a second and some $$$$$ from the suck-up bean counter?
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If the Jets signed, a then unknown Miles Austin, and gave up a 2nd round pick as well, Hank would have been the first one ripping Tannenbaum for giving up a high pick for an unkown player.
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Jesus:
FYI This is what I wrote about Austin then. I guess is dumb thinking I might win atlest one.
hank/naples, on April 13th, 2009 at 11:12 pm Said:
Dylan;I agree. I also think it would have been a good signing. With TO gone the Cowoys will now make him their #2 receiver. This kid is bigger, stronger AND faster than Wes Welker. Loook for him to have a great year. Can’t wait to see who Tannenbaum drafts w/2nd pick
I will now start praying to the REAL Jesus for a win here.
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Bent says:
Agh, don’t re-open the Miles Austin debate. We had a long discussion about the poison pill, I recall. Basically, the Jets could’ve had Austin for a 2nd with the poison pill and there would have been nothing the Cowboys could do about it, but unfortunately (maybe because so many fans said they’d be so angry at giving up a second rounder) they decided not to. (Tangent: Jets players, coaches and owners should stop listening for the fans – Rhodes hears “make more impact plays” and “why do you never go for a big hit?” and starts making a ton of mistakes, Sanchez gets voted rookie of the week three times by the fans and starts throwing a bunch of picks…)
Yes, the Robertson trade was a bad one for the reasons you pointed out. However, if you analyze the eventual value of the guys that were drafted with the picks they gave up, which seems to be what you want to do with the Braylon trade, the Jets actually got more value than they would have had by picking those players instead. AT THE TIME OF THE TRADE they got great value and despite Trusnik’s emergence, Braylon has been worthwhile.
For $3.5m this year, the Jets have him to replace Coles, who is earning twice as much per year for the next 4 years and is 31-379-3TD on the season, with multiple drops. Braylon is 30-460-2TDs and about five years younger. That’s good business…
I am saying I think it was a good trade because I think it was a good trade, not because I want to “destroy his his character with unfounded heresay and drive him as far as they can from his livelyhood”
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Bent….stop…..too logical…..brain hurts….
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Bent says:
I would’ve been furious if the Jets traded a first rounder for him, but when I heard what they gave up, I didn’t have a problem with it. However, I asked the opinion of a friend who is as knowledgeable as any of us about the NFL (and not a Jets or Browns fan, so completely impartial).
When I told him the Jets traded Trusnik, Stuckey and two picks for Braylon, his guess was that the two picks would be a 2nd and a 3rd. I trust his opinion, so I maintained the view that they got good value.
And since, as I illustrated, the Jets can probably recoup equivalent value, if not better, if they don’t choose to retain him, it was also a low risk move.
(To be fair, I’m just trying to see if I can get Brendan’s head to explode now).
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Brendan:
Trusnik was a UFA, NOT a 6th or 7th rounder.
And if you call him just “a special teamer” you are NUTS!!! The lack of judging talent has been our greates downfall. Want proof? I could probably put toghether an Pro-Bowl team with all the talent the Jets have GIVEN away. Just look at our last 40 Years, still under 500%
And when you say convincingly that….”I honestly don’t care if our coach is the biggest A-hole on Earth, winning makes fans love everyone, just ask a Pats fan” You must be drunk or in a coma.
Just look at our present W/L record. Dilusional, trully dilusional!!!!!!!!
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hank,
i don’t think jesusrevis really cares if he wins a debate on the jetsblog.
all any of us care about is if the Jets win.
Bray bray gives us a better chance at winning, then who we traded for him did. plain and simple “point value” or not.
Remember, his stats are the way they are because we have a rookie QB, and he is new to the system. Lets see how he preforms the rest of the way before we make any decision.
Regardless or not, i’m gonna hope he has a 3 td 190 yard game, because if he does, its means we prolly won the game. Thats all i care about, if you wanna wish him ham, which will hurt the jets, thats all you. Please, please just don’t call yourself a jet fan anymore if that is how you think.
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Bent:
Glad you brought that up. Here is what I said about that:
hank/naples, on April 13th, 2009 at 11:20 pm Said:
PS. What happened to Tannenbaum’s PATENTED “poison pill”. It must be losing its potentecy (Cutler, Kemo and now Miles).Notice the remark on the “poison pill”, And with cutler don’t go there, I dont want to go back and dig up dirt.
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Hank,
You posting two past posts isn’t going back to dig up dirt? Hah your hypocrisy is mind blowing.
I am aware of how Trusnik entered the league. I was putting a “price tag” on his value to this team, if you will. And I’m nuts for calling him a ST’s player? Really? What did he do on the Jets? He played ST’s. He didn’t start, he wasn’t someone coming into sub packages, he wasn’t getting plays on defense. He was a Special Teams player. So yes, I refer to him as a special teamer.
You said “want proof?” Um, yeah, I kind of do. Make your All-Pro team (weren’t you the one who said pro-bowls are meaningless?) of past Jets. If anything, our current regime has shown a keen eye in talent evaluation. Here is actual proof: D’brick, Mangold, Keller, Harris, Revis, Greene. If you want less flashy examples we have Devito, Ripoti Pitoitua, Turner (ready to step in as a starter), Westerman, Murrell. I know, I know, all those guys are here because Mangini wanted them. Gholston is on Tanny, though.
Why must I be “drunk or in a coma”? It’s true. By all accounts Belichick is a surly, unhappy, miserable human being (basically, an A-hole), but his fans adore him. Winning solves everything. And our W/L record is what it is because we have rookies running our offense and running our team. And I wouldn’t class Rex as an A-hole at all. By most people’s telling he is an engaging, friendly and caring man.
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Jhonny Reefer:
I appreciate the nuggets of “Wisdom From Reefer”
I do not wish him harm and contrary to theMedia Kolaide drinkers on this blog I want the jets to win.
Howerver, blind faith, twisted logic, and unfounded bashing comming from fans drunk with Media Koolaide must be answered!!
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Brendan:
Explain to me how two posts, about MY COMMENTS, to prove MY points is “digging up dirt”
This is the type of convoluted logic that I mentioned to Jesus that it’s imposible for me to succeed.
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Hank,
You bring up past comments to try and win an argument, but you don’t want someone else going back to use them? That is hypocritical.
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Bent says:
Hank – I did say don’t reopen that debate!
Why did you not post where I replied, explaining to you that the poison pill was infallible (and why) and that the reason they didn’t pursue Austin was that they chose not to, not because the poison pill failed. Not pursuing Austin has proven to be a mistake by mr t, so I’m surprised you’re not all over that.
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Hank, congrats on ignoring my posts that could actually hurt your argument…
Everyone else, please stop responding to Hank. It is quite obvious now that he will never accept the fact that the Jets made a great trade for Braylon Edwards. It’s fruitless at this point to spend any more energy logically and intelligently proving, explaining, and dissecting exactly why this was a great trade And are in no postion, playoffs or not, to actually lose out on this trade, short of Braylon Edwards pulling a Plaxico (no pun intended).
It is obvious that Hank will repeatedly carry out this argument to his death, distorting every post that is written towards him all in a last ditch effort to save face.
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This is amazing even for Hank…yea its the hundred other people that disagree with this guy on a daily basis…thats right….everybody else is f’ed in the head but Hank has it right…and Hank talks about delusional
Seriously though, this Kool Aid crap has got to stop, everytime he knows he cant win an arguement or make his point, he pulls it out, I dont know who this guy thinks he is fooling
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Brendan:
My opinion of the pro-bowl that it is all politics and name recognition does NOT waver. It is, however validated as an achievement by those that believe in that process, like yourself.
And if you knew anythig abouth the “process”, as our beloved EX was fond of saying, there are only two ways you got on the field. 1) through special teams, or 2) By standing out in your position during practices.
So, being that Trunsik only got on the field as a LB a couple of games (Injuries and otherwise) thef ans got a very short look at the guy.
Apparently Mangini saw enough!!
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And thats why the browns a 1-7. and their d is horrible.
Why do we have a top 5 d?
we aren’t starting trunsik.
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I can’t believe we signed Bart Scott. If only we knew we had such a stud LB on our depth chart, just like Trusnik….we could have saved millions. Tanny is a horrible GM. David Harris and Trusnik in the middle…we’d be unstoppable. We never would have lost that 1rst Miamo game…Mangini wins again!!
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Bent:
1st Part: Sorry I din’t see that part… about not bringing it up.
2nd part: I did not jump all over the bean counter over Miles because I don’t like to kick a person when he is down, ok? I don’t need any more compliments for being right!!!
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Hank,
I’m sorry, I’ve killed too many brain cells, but you might know the answer to this. Who, exactly, was the head coach while Trusnik was playing special teams and not defense? Al Groh? No, couldn’t be him. Herm, maybe? Nope, he just missed Trusnik. Oh, that’s right MANGINI. So you’re saying that Mangini saw enough of him to not even play him in NY but to start him with Cleveland? Do you actually think about what you’re posting before you post?
So, again, what is your point? You try to lead people around in circles so they forget the original point, which is the Jets got good value in the Edwards trade, and that you just try to pick a single statement in an entire post to highlight and attack. Fact remains, Trusnik never started (under your boy Mangini), Stuckey is still nothing more than a slot receiver, and the 3rd&5th rounders combined wouldn’t even equal our 2nd rounder, all while the Jets got a big-play stud receiver with less drops than Stuckey, who hasn’t played in 4 games this year.
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Bent:
I will continue this wonderful chat later. I must go to a wake and a funeral for someone special. We are all wearing black…..NO………GREEN !!!!!!!! Just kiding.
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Sorry Brendan, Hank ignores many posts. I have come to realize that numerous times.
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starz31;
Here is something for you and your friends……WITH AMNESIA……..to read while i’m back:
By Steve Doerschuk
CantonRep.com staff report
Posted Nov 20, 2009 @ 01:01 AM——————————————————————————–
BEREA — Linebacker Jason Trusnik, who seemed to be just a throw-in in the Braylon Edwards trade, is throwing some weight around.In 17 games with the Jets, spread over the 2007, ‘08 and ‘09 seasons, Trusnik impressed teammates as a special teams whiz, but he seldom played on defense, not making a single tackle as a linebacker.
In five games with the Browns, he has become a key man, racking up 21 tackles, starting the last two games at outside linebacker.
“This guy has been fantastic ever since we got him,” Defensive Coordinator Rob Ryan said coming off Trusnik’s eight-tackle game at Chicago. “He’s playing multiple roles. He’s a quick learner, smart guy, tough guy, the way I would picture a typical kid from Ohio.
“If you get in a bar fight with him … he’d be in there all day if it got to that.
“I think we really got someone special here that we can develop. He’ll be a final part of our defense for years to come.”
This was music to the ears of a 25-year-old trying to get an NFL foothold, having fought his way in as an undrafted rookie out of Ohio Northern in 2007.
Trusnik came by a transcript of Ryan’s strong words about him.
“I took that as a great compliment,” he said. “I have tremendous respect for (Ryan). My goal is to be a hard-working, intelligent guy who’s going to get after it on the field.”
Trusnik landed in the small-college ranks after he was a backup quarterback at Nordonia High School through his junior year.
“I’d played some defense here and there, but in my senior year, they made me a defensive end,” the 6-foot-4, 250-pound Trusnik said. “There came a point when I realized I loved the defensive side.”
He was feared in the Ohio Athletic Conference. He credits Ohio Northern coaches for developing him into a versatile defensive end, but it has been a quantum leap trying to prove he can be an NFL linebacker.
He said he had “a vision” of how well he’d do with a chance to play linebacker in the NFL, but for two-plus years, that’s all it was, a vision.
He said he was “a little nervous at first.”
“Once you get out there and realize you can play … I’m making plays, tackles, sacks, whatever it is. I gained more and more confidence,” he said.
He played about 75 percent of the defensive snaps against Baltimore on Monday, when the defense had a shutout at halftime and wound up allowing a season-low 274 yards.
Plenty of undrafted players from small colleges have said they forever battle the stereotype that their background somehow makes them less.
“One thing I’ve learned over time is, people are going to say and think what they want,” Trusnik said. “That’s something for me to prove to people and to myself that I can play here. That’s what I continue to try to do. Keep setting higher standards.”
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Why does an article by a Ohio sports writer matter to us?
The whole discussion is about value BEFORE THE TRADE. Stuck’s and Trusnik’s value to us, against Braylon’s value to us now. Not what their value is to the Browns.
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Sorry Hank but I dont drink the Kool-Aid!!!! Why dont you stop getting drunk on BROWN KOOL AID!!!
the best part
Rob Ryan
“He’ll be a final part of our defense for years to come.”Years to come!!!! That whole coaching staff is going to be s#i+canned out of there by the end of the season!!!! They are the worst team in the NFL!!!! The Bucs would KILL the Browns!!!
Its real nice Rob Ryan said that stuff about him but in reality, no Off Cord is staying up at night trying to figure out a way to block Jason Trusnick, regardless of what he has done. Im not saying the guy is a bad player, bc I think the kid has some ability but he is a VERY replaceable run of the mill guy. He will never be more than a Larry Izzo type or back-up LB on a good NFL defense, not the joke that Mangini tries to pass off to Browns fans every weekend
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Hank, again, and again, what are you trying to prove?
You already posted that article, and we already had this discussion. My apologies if my amnesia is lacking at this particular moment.
If only we could go back in time, then we could save Tanny the embarrasment of signing Bart Scott (it only would be an embarrasment b/c as you infer, we could have had Trusnik starting instead of Scott).
Why is Trusnik starting on the Browns?
Why was Trusnik not starting on the Jets in 2007, 2008, or 2009? He even had two years with Mangini to crack that lineup. WE HAD DEPTH. WE HAD BETTER PLAYERS THAN HIM. Browns? can’t say the same for them.Again, what are you trying to prove? Because as I see it, the Jets dealt from a strength (depth LB) and upgraded our WR position (going from a #3 in Stuckey to a #1 in “Bray-Bray”) Sounds like we made a great trade then.
You are unable, and have been unable, to convince any logical Jets fan that the Braylon trade was a poor choice.
The only thing you have won is the Mike Francessa-award, which is given to those special fans that have the ability to distort reality, to ignore facts, all with the motive to rile up fans/listeners to respond and give focus to your posts. Well done sir and congrats.
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To add to starz31′s point about the reason for starting Trusnik:
Trusnik is starting because D’Qwell Jackson and Eric Barton are both hurt. They were the starting ILB’s at the start of the season and are still 2nd and 3rd on the team in tackles (despite getting hurt in game 6 and 8, respectively).
If those two were not injured, then their four starting LB’s would be Wimbley (OLB), Jackson (ILB), Barton (ILB), and Bowens (OLB). Trusnik probably would still be a rotational player at best if those two weren’t hurt.
Oh and Hank, those youngsters you were touting: Veikune still hasn’t played, Coye Francies isn’t even in the top 4 CB’s on the team (on the BROWNS), Maiava was just demoted for your boy Trusnik and 90 year old Bowens, and in the last 4 games Massaquoi has 185 yards and 1 TD (and if you take away his 115, 1 TD game against the Lions he’s had 92 yards and no td’s in the past four games).
Ladies and Gentleman…your Eric Mangini Draft Class!!!
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hank/naples,
I was all for the Miles Austin signing during the offseason. If we had signed him though, we probably wouldn’t have been able to trade for Sanchez without giving up this years first round pick. Bottom line though, the Jets got Sanchez for around the value of a 2nd round pick.You have to take into account what Stuckey and Trusnik meant to the Jets and not just to the Browns. Stuckey is/was a great slot guy but nothing more. He had some value to the Jets, but not that much. Trusnik was a good special teamer for the Jets, but was never going to be anything more. The Jets already have a bunch of project linebackers in Westerman, Cummings, Murrell, and even Gholston. Trusnik wasn’t going to see much playing time, if any. Also, the Jets are loaded with talented special teamers like Wright, Coleman, Westerman, and Izzo.
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I mean bottom line the Jets got Edwards for the value of a second round pick
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Dylan:
Gotta give you credit, you were for getting Austin. Fact is who knows what it would’ve cost outside of $$$$$. Fact is we needed a WR, with speed size and strenght, more than a RB. Fact is we still gave away five picks, not counting Edwards. We can only just imagine what coulda, woulda, shoulda.
As far as THE TRADE goes, most fans ( hear me BRENDAN, STARZ 31 ET AL) are illusional in seeing a mirage when looking at our LB personnel. They see the best LB corps in football when in fact, if you project the performance of our LB,s (EXCLUDING THE ANIMAL DH) to a full season, they do NOT stand up to Trusnik.
You heard me right. If you project all the stats to a full 16 game season for Pace, Scott, Thomas and Trusnick, guess who comes out on top!!!
But to listen to these koolaide drinkers, they swear that this kid Trusnick has little to NO value only because as a undrafted FA was still fighting to get on the field learning a new position after a total of seven games.
They are too blind to see that it took Scott FOUR(4) yearsas a undrafted FA to grow into his position and they disparage Trusnick because they think he shoulve done it in his first year. It ‘sridiculous.
Specially when you consider that Mangini requires you to pay your duce on ST while you earn playing time in practices.
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Dylan:
And as far as Stuckey goes, from what I remember, if I do remember correctly, we got Stucky in th 7th round because he had suffered a foot injury prior to the draft. I might be wrong but i think that was the reason he fell fron high 2nd rd. to seventh.
Also do NOT forget that Stuckey was our NUMBER TWO (2) wide receiver that we gave up for a number 1.5 WR. And I hate to remind you but, we also gave up those other four items.
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Bent says:
hank – you said who knows what [austin] would have cost outside of $$$$. That I can answer…he was available for a second round pick because he was an RFA with a 2nd round tender.
Trusnik is doing well, but he hasn’t done well enough to turn the Browns fortunes around. Either way, at the time of the trade, he was worth a 7th rounder at best. Stuckey’s value before he injured his foot isn’t relevant either because at the time of the trade he was worth a 3rd rounder at most.
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hank/naples,
There is a difference between putting up pretty good numbers and being a very good player. Somebody has to tackle the opposing teams players. Just because he has a lot of tackles doesn’t make him a great player. Cleveland is ranked 31 in total defense. I don’t care how many tackles Trusnik, Bowens, Elam, or Poteat get. If they were as good as their stats suggest the Browns wouldn’t have 2nd worst ranked defense in the entire league. Comparing Bowens and Trusnik to Harris and Scott is just silly. There is a reason that the Jets are ranked #2 in defense and the Browns #31. Because the Jets players are MUCH better than the Browns.Please explain how its ridiculous for fans to say the Jets have the best linebackers in football when the defense is ranked #2 in the league behind only Green Bay. What is ridiculous is trying to make average players on a TERRIBLE defense look like superstars.
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Bent says:
Okay, I admit I was wrong…
Trusnik is not doing well:
http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&page=1&surn=T&playerid=4083
This site rates his performance with the Browns as worse than Gholston.
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Bent says:
“if you project the performance of our LB,s (EXCLUDING THE ANIMAL DH) to a full season, they do NOT stand up to Trusnik.”
Trusnik has 31 tackles and 2 sacks, but didn’t play defense in the first 4 games.
Pace (who also didn’t play in the first 4 games) has five sacks! Note: He also has 36 tackles.
Scott has 65 tackles in 11 games, whereas Trusnik has 31 in 7.
I think their stats do stand up to Trusnik. Either way, as the previous link shows, he has apparently not been playing that well regardless of his stats – and that’s not just because he’s on a bad team because 9 of the team do have positive rankings.
I don’t rate that site as the be all and end all, but it does reveal some interesting trends.
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Bent:
I hate to be rude but…What the FOCUS is that?
The only thing I understood was his name. I guess your STATESTICIAN Mr. Focus, did NOT see my STATS projecting Jason over a 16 game schedule as OLB.
PS. I can’t believe that you have admitted to LITTLE OLD ME that you have been WRONG TWICE, and in one day nonetheless. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Bent:
Sorry, istill learning how to spell statistician.
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Bent says:
It’s a site which grades the performance of every player on every snap. Red is bad, green is good. There is no green for Trusnik, just red. So he has had (significantly) more bad plays than good plays.
I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong. All those other times when I refused to admit I was wrong, I obviously wasn’t wrong. On this occasion I was only wrong because I believed what you were saying without looking into it.
As I noted above, Trusnik’s stats over a 16 game season don’t appear to be better than any of the Jets starting linebackers, well, apart from Bryan Thomas. I’ll give you that one.
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Bent:
I believe you are wrong, again. Scott STARTED 11 games, Trusnik started 5 games. That translates to 95 tackles for Scott and 99 for Trusnik.
Also Pace translates to 82 tackles. Trusnik would have 99 tackles and 6 sacks. So what if Pace would have 11 sacks, talk to me when he gets close to 15
And Thomas….forget Thomas.
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Hank,
Nice of you to skip over my analysis of why Trusnik is even starting.
Also, if I’m so delusional (I think that’s the word you were looking for) about the Jets’ LB corps, then Mangini was too, no? Seeing how he started the same corps (with the only difference being Scott in for Barton). Did Trusnik crack the lineup at all under Mangini? So, once again, he’s only starting because of injuries, as Mangini didn’t see him fit to start here. And since you hold Mangini’s football IQ in the highest regard, are you actually questioning his judgment?
And you are correct that Stuckey fell to the 7th round because of a foot injury. But he was never going to be drafted in the 2nd round. He was projected as a 4th rounder before his foot injury (he was ranked as the 24th WR in the draft by Rivals.com). And as for starting for us, that was only because we had no one else. He’s a slot receiver and not suited to be a starter, as his declining production with the team as a starter showed.
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Bent:
I like your Chinese Abacus;
Don’t stop now though. It shows your pride and joy boy Calvin with FOUR times more RED than GREEN.
And Harris has more RED also. Unbelieveable!!!That in its self helps prove my point does
it not?Just asking.
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Bent says:
Well, Trusnik still played in those other games and Scott (as you are aware) does a ton of things like taking on blockers that don’t show up in the boxscore…most importantly though Scott anchors a top five defense and the Browns are winless with Trusnik starting (despite apparently far superior coaching).
I like Trusnik, always have. One day, maybe he’ll be as good as some of those guys. Nobody knows. Based on the statistical evidence though, he has a way to go. It’s good he’s getting a chance to play, because he wouldn’t have had the same chance with the Jets.
None of this affects his value when he was traded,
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Bent says:
Hank – hey, it’s not my website, but as I did point out it spots trends.
Both Harris and Pace have better overall ratings than Trusnik, who according to their ratings has had no good games and one terrible one.
Completely disregard the results if you want, but you’d think they’d have spotted something, anything positive from the guy.
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Dylan:
The problems with the Browns are several but the biggest is not Personnel. The biggest is communication and chemistry. There have been toooo many moving parts, tooo much “grit in the grease” (I love that one) for thedefense to be effective.
If Mangini gets the chance from Lerner, and I firmly think he will, he will work out the kinks and replace Barton, Bowens, Elam (If he doesn’t improve) & Pool as D starters in this years draft.
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Dylan:
What all of THE Mangini bashers are too blind to see is that Mangini inherited a dysfunti
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Dylan:
What all of THE Mangini bashers are too blind to see is that Mangini inherited a dysfunctional team with only four picks AND the THIRD HIGHEST PAYROLL IN THE NFL. A team that is about to earn the honor as THE WORST TEAM OF THE DECADE !!!!!
And to hear you guys, the Media Sharks and all HATERS, Mangini has been the Browns Coach, President and GM for ALL TEN YEARS. Incredible!!!!!
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Bent:
One last question regarding this site;
The horizontal line is the mean. Above (GREEN)is the positive performance Bellow it (sometimes RED) is ALL the negative performance, correct?
If it is so, why would you say that Pace has a better performance if he has four times more NEGATIVE than POSITIVE performances?
And Harris also has more Negs than Pos.
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starz31 says:
Hank, I almost fell out of my chair when you claimed Trusnick is a better LB than Scott, Pace, and Thomas. I know you left Harris out, but unfortunately that is the only thing you did correctly. It’s illogical, embarrassing, and unsubstantiated to suggest that a special teams lifer and depth chart LB is a better qualified starter than 3 veteran and consistently successful, more athletic, experienced, proven, and effective starting linebackers for a the 5th best defense in the league. You sound like a middle-schooler to use such exaggerations.
So Mangini will be removing the majority of players that he brought with him to the Browns? You’re right in that he will for some, but not most. But the problem isn’t his guys, its the guys that he inherited. As common with most coaching changes, the short-term overhaul can be difficult because you are limited to using existing personnel to implement a new and unknown scheme, playbook, style, etc.. (Not always the case, but it is here). If he is to remove his players that he brought in only a year ago then he is not taking a step forward but at best, only laterally.
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Bent says:
Pace minus-1.8, Harris minus-4.2, Trusnik minus-4.3 are their overall ratings.
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hank/naples,
I don’t care about all the Mangini haters and “the media” doesn’t affect my view of him. I think he is a terrible coach and his short stint with the Browns has done nothing to change my opinion of him. So far, what he has done is take a bad team and make it worse. I think the Browns were crazy to higher him. He doesn’t get the most out of his players and he doesn’t make ANY in game adjustments. The Browns could easily not have any wins. You say the players aren’t the problem and the coach is great but yet the Browns suck. Something doesn’t add up… -
I’ll give you credit though, very good ironic self-deprecating humor you used in poking fun at Bent for acting like a reasonable, true Jet fan, let alone person, and admitting he was wrong. The respectful posters here do admit when they are wrong. Thats how thoughtful and insightful discussions work.
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The problem with the Browns is a terrible coach and very little talent.
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Bent says:
I don’t hate Mangini. I think he would have become a decent coach, but was made a head coach too soon perhaps and may never get another chance if he doesn’t turn the Browns around.
He inherited a similar situation with the Jets, but took them to the playoffs. Why hasn’t he had anything like the same kind of success this time? I don’t know. I wasn’t a fan of many of his offseason moves but maybe they’ll pay off in the long run. Unfortunately, he might not last long enough to see that.
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Is Hank trying to say that Jason Trusnick is better than Scott, DH and Pace. Is this really happening? This is a legendary Hank rant. To be honest this is Favre-like with regards to Hank.
Hank at least, you are persistent. You are absolutely, unequivocally wrong in every sense, but persistent.
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Bent/Dylan?starz31:
I don’t understand how your Focus Pocus can show Pace with Four times More Negatives than Positives and still have him with Half the Negative rating than Harris and Trusnik. But anyway, it doesn’t matter.
As far as the Browns go, if you are interested, I can tell that it demands such a Herculean effort by Mangini that it is trully insane !!
There is absolutely no comparison, Pre-Mangini, between the state of the Jets Team, Franchize, Media, City and Fanbase to that of Clevelands. No comparison, none whatsoever.
He has changed at least 40% or more of all the players, much, much more of ALL the coaching staff, trainers, Medical staff, front office personnell, executives. and on and on and all by himself.
On top of that, he has had to endure probably the most injuries and illnessess to his starting players than any other NFL club.
And that is Just for starters. That is even before we get into the losing culture of the City during the last Decade. I mean i can go on and on and on before we can even get into the coaching side of it.
Enough said.
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Hank,
Become a Browns fan then.
Seriously. please. Nothing you say or do, will change what is going on with the team now, if you dont like it, LIVE WITH IT, or stop being a jet fan.
Seriously, its getting old. I’m starting to think you have a mental disorder.
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Reefer:
Is This another nugget of “Wisdom from Reefer”?
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Reefer
Its never going to change unless the Jets start winning. If the Jets start winning Hank will go away. Until then it will be the same thing over and over and over.
The problem is we are all stupid enough to give the guy a reaction. Hell, Im so stupid I post things to the guy knowing that he will not answer them back.
The only comfort you can take is knowing that no one listens to a word this guy says. Everyone is on to his BS. He isnt fooling anyone, we are all smart enough on here to know what we know is true, and def dont need Hank to spell it out or shed any light for us.
Hank Im finished with you forever, just know that you are a cowardly, bush league fan. All the negativity toward you on this site is well deserved karma for the chaos you create on this site on a regular basis.
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Bent says:
Hank – “I don’t understand how your Focus Pocus can show Pace with Four times More Negatives than Positives and still have him with Half the Negative rating than Harris and Trusnik.”
He doesn’t, I have no idea where you got that idea from: http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=Pace&playerid=1334
“But anyway, it doesn’t matter.”
Agreed. You might as well disregard this because it doesn’t help your case.
If you want to treat the Edwards trade as being bad value on the Jets part based on the current value of the players involved, then you have to accept that the Sanchez trade was good value on the basis that Elam has been a huge bust (who you admitted yourself Mangini will probably replace next year) and Ratliff has not figured at all and is unlikely to ever get a shot. Their current value is ZERO because if you’re getting cut from a one-win team, you aren’t going to make it anywhere else. So the Jets got the 5th pick for an exchange of first round picks, a second rounder and a journeyman defensive lineman. You can’t have it both ways.
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Bent:
Look, I,m impressed by the mision statement of thid site. But I call it “Focus Pocus” because how can you explain that Kerry Rhodes rate much more positives than negatives on a week ly basis. Your site shows Rhodes SEVEN positve weeks to only THREE negative and a NET rating of POSITIVE 5.8
While Harris was rated with Four positive performances vs. SIX Negative and a NET rating of a NEGATIVE 4.2.
Sorry to repeat the question, but it DOESN”T make sense.
Also, Judging by your criteria, Braylon Edwards rated much more NEGATIVE (-6.8) than Trusnik (-4.9) .
So, which way is it Bent, you can’t have it BOTH ways.
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Reefer:
I woke up in a better mood and re-read your comments on 11:27PM.
I trully think you ( and a couple of others) must chill and get a grip on reality.
Discussions, even arguments about trades, performances, individual abilities of players and teams have been and intricate part of spots and the only thing that allows “FAN” participation.
Unless, your
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Reefer:
Cont…..
Unless your life, or your self or your familys’ support depends on it , I strongly suggest you have some fun with it!!! Get a grip on reality !!!!
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Hank,
When did this turn into you arguing the results of a website? This is what I mean. You will take any part of an argument to attack rather than stay on course. We were talking about the Braylon trade.
Bent never said he swears by this website. It’s just another resource in the many that are available to us fans.
And why do you ignore posts that may negatively impact your argument? I understand you can’t respond to all posts, or sometimes miss one, but it’s as if any post that successfully negates your point go unnoticed.
Bent’s argument about the Sanchez trade is a great example. He’s pointing out your double standard, but that point gets swept under the rug.
My point about Mangini choosing not to start Trusnik (or even play him) over the same linebackers that are here now (with Scott being the only new body) goes unnoticed.
I could probably find more examples just on this thread, but I’ll save us the time.
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Bent says:
Also, if we disregard the website that says Trusnik is playing poorly and take your word for it that he has played well, then I was right about him all along, so where I admitted I was wrong above no longer applies!
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hahahaha…I enjoy reading what possible tangent Hank concocts every time he posts something. It’s comical at this point how many times he has been proven wrong, from what you think is every possible persepective, but he always finds a way to re-arrange things to ease his feelings. But its the cycle of things that is best. Becuase once he creates a new angle and we subsequently disprove it, he just keeps going and concocts another myth. It’s fun to prove him wrong each and every time. Enjoyable, actually.
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The best part though, or maybe frightening, is that, I think, he believes he’s a Jets fan.
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Yes, it is another nugget of wisdom from me.
If you just thought like me Hank, you’d always wake up in the good mood.
Yes, I know the Jets need to win, and I’m supporting them no matter what. Hell last year i hated the Brett Favre trade, just because i always thought he was overrated, but while other people bashed him, hated him, during the year, i supported him.
Why? because he is on the jets and if he does good, the Jets are more likely to win.
Karma baby. its all about Karma. We have such a crappy aura around this team because of the media and fans, we will never win anything.
How do you expect players to take pride in the team, when the fan base doesn’t?
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Brendan:
It’s unbelievable, really! …Actually it’s so unbelievable it is funny!! You know what you guys look and sound like? I envision an ant colony all moving, lock step in the same direction, all going deeply into the same HOLE. Then comming out in file and going into ANOTHER HOLE, and so on PERPETUALLY.
Look, to remind you guys what my last comment was all about i’ll quote Bent……” Okay, I admit I was wrong…
“Trusnik is not doing well:
“http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&page=1&surn=T&playerid=4083
“This site rates his performance with the Browns as worse than Gholston”
Bent added this site as proof that Trusnik was NOT doing well, AFTER his first response in which he actually agreed with me that Trusnik WAS DOING WELL”
So, using Bent’s sample as proof, I researched additional info to demonstrate that I am right.
That STRATEGY is called ” Using your opponents Leverage Against Him”
Using Bents ‘site I can actually demonstrate how Franchez has had MUCH, MUCH more NEGATIVE performances than Elam, and thereby extrapolate from those stats that the Franchez, along with the Edwards trade, has been much less beneficial to the Jets.
Now tell me agaain, where am I wrong?
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but, Sanchez is a rookie QB. He is going to have a negative affect on the team for that reason.
Elam has been in the league for years, HE SHOULDN’T have a negative affect.
SANCHEZ IS ABOUT THE FUTURE NOT THIS YEAR!
how the hell are you judging a ROOKIE, as a failure already, in freakin 11 games as a pro.
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Its like if you got a job you never did before, and they fired you after the first few days because your production wasn’t that of a ten year employee.
its stupid, Sanchez is learning on the job, give the kid some time to grow.
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Hank you sound so ridiculous sometimes its embarassing. How can you compare Elam to Sanchez? Sanchez is a rookie QB, his performance in his rookie year isnt an indication of anything! Its a shame that so many Jets fans waste their time arguing with you!
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And, since Sanchez is a rookie, who is going to suffer the most from him being a ROOKIE. His WRs.
J-CO, isn’t having that great of a year stat wise himself.
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hank/naples,
Your argument is ridiculous. Sanchez is a rookie and we all know he has struggled this season. Nobody on here said Sanchez was having an amazing season. I guess in your opinion we should just trade Sanchez straight up for Elam. Nevermind the fact that they play completely different positions and one position is much more important than the other. Bent used the website to rate Trusnik’s performance against other LINEBACKERS, since you foolishly said that he was having a better season than DH, BS, CP, and BT. Your arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous by the second. -
Bent says:
Yeah, that’s my take too. Elam’s going to be replaced next year, whereas Sanchez is hopefully only going to get better. If he doesn’t it wasn’t a bad trade, but maybe it was a bad pick. The draft picks the Browns got in the trade have had no impact whatsoever yet, but you’re always the first to point out how good they will be in the future…well, then you have to allow the other side of the trade to be considered in terms of future value too.
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Johnny Reefer:
I’m glad to see you are in a better mood. I ope that anger came from Reefer and not you Johnny.
But seriously though, I’m a diehard Jets fan. I have to be to put up with all you guys, but it’s fun, really.
Look, being a Jets fan doesn’t mean you have to put up with all the garbage the ORGANIZATION feds us.
It doesn’t mean you have to put up withall the alterior motives they hide behing in the name of the team. It doesn’t mean you have to support ass hole players like Farve and BIG MOUTHS like Rhodes, Scott and RYAN.
Being a fan simply means that you support a group of players ( not necessarily ALL) in their effort, or field of battle, against any and all opponents. THAT”S ALL, nothing more. It is NOT till DEATH DO its PART. It is only a sport, can NEVER be anything more, of course unless you have a risk/ reward invested.I am a diehard Jets fan and I guess you must’ve read somewhere that in the past I would WALk to Shea Stadium
So it’s that simple for me, I hope it is also for you.
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Hank,
I may be alone in this regard, but I get quite uneasy when you refer to me and the rest of these posters “all going deeply into the same hole” and perpetually going into holes together.
But seriously, I think everyone else here already summed it up.
As Dylan pointed out, Bent used that site to compare Trusnik to other LB’s. That site rates players on a per-play basis, so to compare people from different positions on their positive/negative effects on the team is pointless.
And are you seriously trying to compare a journeyman safety who won’t even be on the WORST DEFENSE IN THE LEAGUE next season to a rookie potential-franchise QB? That’s how you expect to convince us you are right?
And how does comparing Sanchez to Elam show you were right about Trusnik? You like to throw one liners about how I’m a Kool-aid drinker, drunk with the media hype, illogical, etc. but do you ever read your post in succession? You went from talking about Rhodes only being good because of Mangini (proven wrong even though you won’t accept that), to talking about the Braylon trade and the value of the trade (we’ll say this was a “draw” so you don’t start going off on it again), to disputing FACTUAL information about restricted free agency by citing some garbage about the playoffs, to this dispute about Trusnik being better than Pace or Scott (absurd, btw), to now talking about Elam vs. Sanchez trying to justify how Mangini got the best out of that trade. Look at that chain of topics for a second. All of them you made outlandish claims and were refuted by numerous posters. It’s not like we have a grudge against you. None of us know you. But when you make factless and baseless arguments based off of your own clouded view of the team that is embedded in negativity, people are going to take the time to refute you. Not because we expect to change your view (believe me, we all gave up on that a long time ago), but instead to make sure no other fans get sucked into your vortex of nonsense.
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hank/naples,
Your “media brainwashing us” argument is becoming really weak. It seems like you are saying that just because the press (and every rational person) think that Ryan is a better coach than Mangini, we shouldn’t. Maybe some people on this blog actually like that the Jets have some personality under Ryan. Maybe most of us dislike Mangini because of how he coached this team and NOT because of what the big bad deceitful media says about him. -
Reefer:
I’m not Judging one AGAINST the other, I’m judging the trades and the PRESENT value each has for its respective team. I’m trying to this through Bents site.
It’s hard enough projecting for this year (16 games), forget projecting for the future years !!
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Actually, my anger came from the the lack of reefer, haha, i’m poor for the next month, paying bills are more important, so i might not be my cheery self all the time.
but I’m not actually doubting your a jet fan, i was just tryin to get under your skin.
But like I said before, I just believe,( i know you don’t) that the fans and the media’s always negative outlook on the Jets is what is hurting this team more then coaches or players. This isn’t the 60s or 70s. All the players watch the media and listen.
So like I said before, how do you expect players to play with pride, when the fanbase, the ones supposed to have their back through it all, doesn’t have any pride for the team.
Hence the losing culture that is being said all the time, its only a losing culture because the fans make it that way.
Show support and love, your supposed to like the JETS. who cares if you hate a player, or a coach. They are rocking your TEAM on the front of their jersey.
This would be the only arugement I ever make too.
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Dylan:
Dont be illusional, Ryan hasn’t proved SQUAT as head coach.
Mangini, at the very least, HAS brought us to the playoffs.
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and yes, i supported Mangini when he was our coach, and i supported Herm too. I supported freakin Neil O’Donald and Glenn Foley.
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Reefer:
“But like I said before, I just believe,( i know you don’t) that the fans and the media’s always negative outlook on the Jets is what is hurting this team more then coaches or players. This isn’t the 60s or 70s. All the players watch the media and listen’.
You want to see the REAL MEDIA HELL, see Mangini.
But you are lucky and you are abolutely right. You may not know it but, Rex and the jets are right now in MEDIA HOG Heaven
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Hank,
The word is “DElusional”
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Eh, I still see all the negativity through many fans, and many people of the media.
Nothing good comes from being negative. Call me naive, i’m pretty sure my thinking is, but screw it, something has got to give ya dig?
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hank/naples,
The Jets would be in the playoffs with a veteran QB this year. The only reason we haven’t won is because Sanchez is not a good player yet. Ryan transformed last years #16 defense to #2 this year. He put the offense in the hands of Schotty which was obviously a huge mistake.You are right Mangini coached pretty well during the 2006 season, but has done nothing since. He had loads of talent last year and failed to make this playoffs. The Jets highest ranked defense under Mangini was #16. Ryan is still making the transition for D coordinator to head coach. With a new O coordinator and a QB who isn’t a rookie anymore next year, the Jets will be REALLY good. The Jets lost their best defensive and offensive players, and are still in contention for a playoff spot with a rookie QB!
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/24/is-rex-ryan-good-or-bad-for-the-league/
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/32975810/ns/sports-nfl//
There are plenty of people in the media who dislike Rex Ryan.
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Dylan:
Lots of what you said is true, and I really don’t want to get back to last year with with that dirt bag QB.
But I can say, is that we would be in the playofs with a veteran QB. We have a better team this year than last years’, no doubt about it. However, who made the choice to go with Franchez, Rex Or Woody or Tannenbaum?
It seems history always repeats itsee with the Jets.
The more thing change, the more they remain the same!!! I have said this many, many times before on this site.
I have been against THE Franchez trade from day one, (I think everyone knows that by now) and the primary reason was not seeing what our QBs in waiting could do. It was the PERFECT time to see that before the draft!!!!
Rex made his bed, right? Rex must sleep in it.
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hank/naples,
I agree that not signing a vet QB was a TERRIBLE decision. We don’t know if it was Rex or Tanny that decided not to. I don’t think Clemens is any better than Sachez though, so considering who was on the roster when the season started, Sanchez was the logical choice.I think the Jets should have signed a good vet, so that if Sanchez struggled we would have other options. It was a terrible decision to go into the season with 4 inexperienced QB’s. I also think it was a bad decision to let Schotty have complete control of the offense. If the Jets had played a more conservative game, they would have a much better record right now.
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Rex is a rookie coach and is still learning, but I think he will be REALLY good.
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Brendan:
Slow down man, you are all over the place, and by doing so you’re taking things out of context.
Somewhere along the line you missed my comments on comparing values OF THE TRADES from the perspective of the PRESENT, not at the time they were drafted.
Now go back and plug play that point and see if it all makes sense to you.
If it still doesn’t make sense, then tell me what criteria, outside of original draft value, would you care to use to evluate from todays perspective, the TRADES, OK?
, OK? -
Dylan:
I hear you but i don’t know. One thing I do know IS that Franchez would have to get COMPLETE amnesia, Get run over by a truck ar get BOTH arms amputated for either KC DA or the other guy O’Connell to see the field. Personally I firmly believe Ainge would have the Jets firmly in the playoff hunt today.
But we’ll never know won’t we? Hate to say it but “PAR FOR THE CURSE”!!!
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Hank,
What? I’m all over the place because I was summarizing where you’ve been on this thread.
You don’t view trades just on present value. You also have to look at the value at the time the trade was made.
You can look at it this way. Jets got a franchise QB and a #1 WR. The Browns got: a center, a future #2 receiver, a OLB 3/4 pass rusher (who hasn’t suited up once this year), a journeyman DE, a terrible S, a career 3rd string QB, and a 3rd and 5th round pick.
I’m not being biased in that analysis either. That’s what they got.
That’s how I review trades. You can talk about value all you want, but the Jets got to stars, the Browns got 6 role players and 2 mid round picks.
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Bent says:
“Franchez would have to get COMPLETE amnesia, Get run over by a truck ar get BOTH arms amputated for either KC DA or the other guy O’Connell to see the field.”
Or he could mildly tweak his knee as happened four days ago and KC got to play then!
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Bent:
Yeah, OK Bent. Make me a liar for one stinking play. Geeezzzzz!!
Selective shots out of context again, Bent? What about the rest of it…”Personally I firmly believe Ainge would have the Jets firmly in the playoff hunt today.”
Or what about this part…… “I have been against THE Franchez trade from day one, (I think everyone knows that by now) and the primary reason was not seeing what our QBs in waiting could do”.
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Bent says:
Relax, Hank, that one was just a joke!
I’m not that high on Ainge (or Clemens) and have never been, but I remain open minded about them both, as I do about most young players.
As you know, I wouldn’t have picked Sanchez at number five, but I remain hopeful he will eventually prove to be a good player.
There’s no way of knowing how the Jets would have fared with Clemens or Ainge or Ratliff or O’Connell or [insert veteran QB name here] but I honestly would have been surprised if they had a winning record at this stage of the season without Leon and Jenks. Still, that’s what I probably would have done.
They did get the 5th pick for good value though.
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“But I can say, is that we would be in the playofs with a veteran QB. We have a better team this year than last years’, no doubt about it. However, who made the choice to go with Franchez, Rex Or Woody or Tannenbaum?
It seems history always repeats itsee with the Jets.
The more thing change, the more they remain the same!!! I have said this many, many times before on this site.”Like the others have said, theres a good chance we would be in the playoffs this season with a veteran QB. We don’t know. But very good possibility. That guy was not on the roster though. Clemens had his shot to start this season, there was no conspiracy, he got an equal amount of reps. The problem was he never distinguished himself as a better option than Sanchez, performance wise. Mentally, he may have been b/c of his experience. But we don’t know.
My point with this is that thinks are not the way they used to be. Things are changing. That is WHY we got sanchez. We wanted to be able to groom our own QB so that one day in a few years we can consistently have a talented offense. That we dont have to re-tool at QB every few years. That was the whole point of drafting a franchise QB. Rex Ryan fell in love with this kid and believes he can be that kind of QB. The fact they made a great trade for the kid is icing on the cake. But I’m optimistic because unlike last season in which Favre gave us one shot at competing with not future hopes, we actually have someone we can build AROUND. We don’t have to keep looking for a QB.
So I disagree. History is not repeating itself. Rex and Tanny have been proactive in trying to build a successful consistent program. It doesnt happen overnight though.
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Combine that with two great trades, 1 to get a potential franchise QB and the second to grab an elite #1 young WR, without giving up pieces that we are counting on (depth pieces and fair value draft-chart picks)…it has set up our offense for years to come. Going into this offseason we dont have to worry about whose going to play QB. We may have to think about Braylon, but thats a money issue, not an acquisition issue.
Let them both play. Rex is smart enough not to put Smith in every 1st & 2nd down and Rhodes in on 3rd downs. He’ll mix em up, send Rhodes on a blitz, have Smith drop back, just to keep it from being predictable. But it seemed to work very well yesterday with Smith playing outstanding against the run and Rhodes patrolling center field like the old days.