Opinion: A Tough Decision, But the Right One
Thoughts on the loss of Thomas Jones to this team in 2010.
Right Place, Right Time — Thomas Jones was Mike Tannenbaum’s first real big trade for a player. The deal consisted of the Jets and Bears swapping some second rounders, (net of one third rounder from a value standpoint). Think about that for a second. The Jets got a guy who led the backfield for three years as a savvy veteran and was an integral leader to this team for the price of a third round pick. Yes please. When the history book is written on Tannenbaum’s career, I think this was the first move that we saw from the Jets in which they went against the convention of overvaluing draft picks in exchange for veteran players … Kris Jenkins, Lito Sheppard, and even Braylon Edwards could be bundled into this building strategy the Jets have used well in recent years.
The Age Defying Effect– Beyond his intense conditioning, if you take a close look at Jones career, he wasn’t used heavily in his first few years in Arizona, and because of that, he’s been able to play at a high level until this year. Still, I think that the Jets saw this coming to a close at the end of this season. We saw that in the Colts postseason game. Once the onus was on him, he was unable to run effectively enough to provide a counter to the Colts run stoppers. I don’t think this will change dramatically going forward. Jones might start the year strong, but by the end of next season, he’s not going to be a guy that the team could guarantee he would be reliable …
The Productivity Was Lagging — Running for under four yards a carry is not a good sign for running backs. Jones has been doing just this a lot, with one of the best blocking units in the game ahead of him. Football Outsiders ranked Jones just 24th against a replacement level player (so only 9 spots away from the “backup” level — the 33rd player in the league) and was 32nd in terms of his value in any given situation when he touched the ball. That’s not a good sign, as his numbers will continue to decrease in coming years. I like Jones a lot, and I think that he’ll be a contributor wherever he lands in 2010. 1,400+ yards and 14 TDs was pretty impressive, but people look at his 2009 statistics and use it as a benchmark that he can continue to do it. I don’t think that’s a smart idea.
The Economics Were Against Staying — At his salary and bonus amount, the team just wasn’t going to get what they were going to pay for on the field. After last year asking for a restructure and being rebuffed, there was no way that Thomas Jones was going to agree to a pay cut from Mike Tannenbaum. And I don’t blame him for a minute. It remains to be seen what Jones can command on the open market, but it seems Jones and Rosenhaus feel better about what they can get there than whatever the Jets were offering. Good luck to them in getting a better deal.
Factor in the Lockout — The League and the Union might well avoid a lockout, they’ve got a year to do it, but the threat of a potential lockout probably makes Thomas Jones realize that 2010 is even that much more important from a salary standpoint for him. He might not play in 2011, and it’s not like there’s that much football left for him as a 34 year old running back in 2012, presuming that’s when the league would return from a potential lockout.
Leadership Concerns — I’m sure the void will be filled by someone, but Jones was the vocal leader of this unit.
The Depth of the Draft — Watching Combine coverage Sunday, Mike Mayock gushed that he thought that running back was a position of extreme depth in this draft. With the influx of undersclassman in this draft, the Jets could grab a nice piece way down the draft board to help chip in behind Leon and Shonn. I think that economically, this allows them to spend the money they would otherwise have spent on Jones re-working the deal of someone like Revis or Mangold.
101 Responses to Opinion: A Tough Decision, But the Right One
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Craig says:
i think the jets are taking a huge unnecessary gamble by not signing jones. green has not played a complete injury free season and leon is coming off major injury. I’m sure TJ would take 5 mill to play this year. uncapped year…so what if the price of tylenol goes up a nickel.
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glocknsoul says:
I would have liked to see them keep TJ for his last year (an uncapped one at that), with Greene having yet to complete a full season, Leon coming back from a MAJOR broken leg, and the lack of draft picks and UFA limitations. We can’t afford to DRAFT a RB this year with the few picks we have.
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Harvlis says:
A rookie might be a great runner but, what will he be like in the locker room, will he fumble, can he stay healthy for the whole season, how long will he take to learn the playbook, can he block for Sanchez, how long will it take to learn the moves of the OL, can he pick up the short yardage, how will he be near the endzone…. Hello, TJ, how does $4mil sound.
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Bkkilla says:
greene didn’t even make it through 3 playoff games without injury and had fumbling issues, washington is coming off a major leg injury i hope the jets didn’t make a mistake, i have faith in mr t though
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Dave says:
The Jets will ultimately be better off for this. A Greene/Washington backfield may not be as consistently proven but it’s infinitely more talented. This release has been in the books basically since the minute Greene was drafted.
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I’d also like to point out we’re talking about probably the easiest position to replace players at in the NFL. If Greene and/or Washington miss time the Jets really can just sign whoever is the best back sitting at home and get decent production from them with the ability of the team’s offensive line.
Love Jones, sad to see him go, but it really is time to move on.
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furthermore….i believe that tj is best possible guy available to back up greene. he has one more good year in him (great worker and light use early in his career)…
bottomline the jets are not a better team by releasing him. pay him whatever it takes, woody has the money. -
junior says:
I think this might actually end up being like a Brandon moore move. Let him test the free agent market and see what his value is and if a team pays him so be it but if he gets no bites he would be welcomed back at what would be a fair deal…
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junior i hope you are right.
i think jets fans under value tj. great short yardage back…does’nt fumble, good blocker, great leadership guy. i think shonn greene is going to be a star, but i still think thomas jones could and should have a role on the 2010 ny jets.
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BigBear says:
Junior – Amen. Hope you are right.
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NYJ10 says:
if greene gets hurt we’re screwed
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tjmax says:
You reap what you sow.
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kc says:
Thanks for everything T.J…..that being said…..its time to move on.
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HHH says:
Wat u guys need 2 understand iz we cnt pay a guy that is 32 yrs old..
Mark sanchez pans out we need 2 b able 2 lock him up we cnt give that money 2 a 32 yrs old player -
Dave TN says:
I hope Junior is right too. The Jets will miss him. From what it sounds like, there will be more than few veteran players sitting out 2010 with few or no offers if it is an uncapped year. Maybe TJ and the Jets should have been able to cut a deal.
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o0o and D. Revis is going 2 want 2 b the highest paid Corner in the game
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Really well written piece….I think one of the factors that brought the Jets to this decision was because Jones, for the first time in years, had really inflated stats based on breaking off some huge runs. Jones effective average, pulling the huge plays out, was only 3.3 YPC, which is pretty poor. Its a 27% reduction om his overall average. Jones previous years effectively were 4.0, 3.4, 3.8, and 3.3. Jones is not a big play back and expecting him to do so in 2010 is not realistic. Its pretty clear the aberration year is the 4.0 and with him just getting older you have to expect it to go down much further.
Ive never been a big TJ fan, but I do hope they bring him back after he explores free agency. I think he can be an asset to the team in some capacity.
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hank/naples says:
Junior:
This can’t be like Brendan’s case. Totally different. Tannenbaum was forced to ask Moore to come back and pay him the original bonus that Tannenbaum had originally refused to pay because Kemo stranded Tannenbaum at the altar without even the decency of a goodbye.
I
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JerryB says:
I think TJ may be back. Other teams wlll downgrade his performance since he ran behind a premium run blocking line. I don’t know the Jets’ offer but the most he will get in free agency is a one year deal at $3MM, I would think the Jets’ offer was in that same ballpark.
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Junior:
Sorry, I said Brendan and should be Brandon, my mistake.
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Brendan says:
Hank you can’t get me out of your head…ADMIT IT!
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What does paying TJ the last year of his deal have to do with anyone else’s contract? 2010 will be uncapped. Pay TJ the money to cover our asses in case Shonn/Leon can’t make a full season. We can’t afford to spend one of our few draft picks on another RB.
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dakar says:
or we can go get fast willie parker…
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Marvel says:
My memory is a little off but weren’t most if not all the Pro Bowl RBs this past season extremly young ? The NFL is a crap shoot when it comes to injuries all it takes is a 400 lb DT falling on your leg for your season/career to be done. Can Green get injured this year yes but it’s the NFL chances are you’re gonna get hurt.I’m not gonna pretend to no TJs whole career but i’m shore he’s been injured before. Tanny will pick up a Parker,Bell or Taylor because that’s just how he roles. I have so much confidence in Tanny I refuse to think he is even capable of screwing things up.
Long Term this is going to do wonders for Sanchize . I think he’s gonna jump from good to ….. to ….. very good . We look at these rookies & 2nd year players as “babies” but fact is they are grown men & I think Sanchize is gonna have the offence wrapped around his finger by the end of pre-season.
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Look, forget about the money. 2010 is uncapped. The only way cutting TJ makes sense is if you don’t want him tying up a roster sport. Money should have nothing to do with it. Unless we’re sure we can fill his spot without using a draft pick or one of our UFA openings, I don’t think it makes sense. And I’m not the biggest TJ backer. We have limited draft and UFA resources to use, and several holes to fill.
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Lance Mehl says:
Smart Move .. Has to be considered an incredible move by Mr T – what value ! ,, sorry replaceable ..
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nyjets90 says:
id rather have TJ than Willie Parker.
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rusty sanchez says:
who is chauncey washington the daily news briefly mentioned him and how mr t is excited as having him as our 3rd rb???
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Dylan says:
There are a ton of good options that will be available at RB. Finding a 3rd back won’t be a problem. Here are some guys that I would could backup Greene and Leon.
1) Mike Bell
2) Jason Snelling
3) Wille Parker
4) Chester Taylor
5) Larry Johnson
6) Jamal Lewis
7) LaDanian Tomlinson
8) Brian WestbrookI’m sure more guys will get cut as well. Finding another RB won’t be a problem.
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head_coach says:
oh well…in other news it seems Detroit is looking to trade for Antonio Cromarte
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im not gonna lie either the whole second half of the season into the playoffs and stats may prove me wrong but it was hard to watch tj run…all season they would try to run him to the outside couple times a game and he gain a yard if he was lucky
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id take larry johnson if any coach in this league can make him into a respectful player i think rex can
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Fred says:
why didnt we try to trade him?
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Who would trade picks for a RB that will be 32 next season?
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Brad R. says:
We’ve created a new need for a team that is handicapped by the final
eight rule and holding only 5 draft picks. Greene is injury prone and Leon is injured. I saw TJ slow down too but he isn’t that easily replaced given the current market.We need a new starting corner and a pash rusher. We are desperate for depth on both lines. Why was the $ such an issue in an uncapped year? I think TJ would have been quite effective with 150/200 carries instead of 300. Yes, $5m + is alot to pay for 200 carries. But our ground and pound game is no longer a strength, it’s a memory.
If we sign mike bell and draft a promising rookie in the later rounds I’ll feel alot better than I do right now. But we are going to lose an integral part of a running game that defined our offense last season. Hard to feel good about it just b/c it makes fiscal sense.
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alex morizio says:
i know we have the 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 picks
we gave up a 3 and 5 for braylon
got the 5 back in the lito deal???
where is the 4th rounder??
i forgot. thanks. please fill me in.
and do we get a pick back if lito is cut?
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We lose a 3rd and 5th for Braylon and a 4th for Lito. We also get back a 5th from the Eagles so right now we have a 1,2,5,6,7. We should also get a few more mid-late rounders because we lost a lot of free agents last year.
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I was about to go to sleep but I checked my email firs and my friend sent this.. I don’t know what to make of it maybe I’m going crazy from all this TJ talk idk but here it is …
With the Chargers having an unexpected amount of Restricted Free Agents due to the new rules of the uncapped season they’ve decided to go a new route.
In an unexpected move the Jets have entered the talks for Antonio Cromartie and even more unexpectedly have offered Darrelle Revis. On the Chargers end they’ll be included a small army of players and the Jets might not be done including some value on their side as well.
As the trade stands now the Chargers would send Antonio Cromartie, Shawn Merriman, Vincent Jackson, their 1st and 3rd round picks in 2010 and their 1st and 2nd round picks in 2011. The Jets would send Darrelle Revis, Vernon Gholston, Kerry Rhodes and their 3rd and 4th round pick in 2011.
This deal is expected to go down fairly soon so stay close to the most accurate source of sports information, the Bleacher Report…
Brent,aka..drew,Brendan someone tell me if this is a joke ..
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I wouldn’t trade Revis for any player in the league so imm gonna draw my own conclusion and say this is a early April fools joke.Peace & goodnight
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sunsetmusic says:
I agree…April Fools….LOL
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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/354147-sources-say-jets-and-chargers-talking-swap
Here is the article. I’m sure its just a joke.
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Tos9987 says:
That trade is rediculous there going to give up 2 years of 1st day draft pics and 3 players . For basicly rhods and revis .
This better not happen . I cant see how Rex would let this happen
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DHarvey27 says:
TJ’s typical game stats were something like 40 yards on 15 carries and 75 yards on 2 other carries..and the point is if you watched him, whenever he ran into the first tackler, his legs stopped ‘churning’.. he would make almost nothing after the first opponent’s contact.. on the other hand, if the O-line opens up a hole he runs for daylight and makes a big gain.. but so could any other back in the NFL when there’s a big hole. I just think its time to move on.
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James in TN says:
We would have to trade revis to get rid of Gholston and Rhodes but I don’t like it.
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Bent says: Hank – Brandon Moore was due a $7m bonus, but then resigned a $4 year deal with a signing bonus of less than $2m. Overall, he got $10m guaranteed over 4 years, which is a good deal for both parties. He was never going to get the $7m which would have made him and Faneca the highest paid guard duo in NFL history.
Glock – I’m sure the jets have their own self imposed spending limit, especially with all the extensions due. They will save approximately $8m if they don’t bring back Feely and Dearth as well as Jones, but I’m sure they have plans for that money. Seriously, the restrictions don’t prevent them from getting that many players.
Dylan – “The most accurate source…” line leads me to believe this is a joke. If there was even a shred of truth to it, that wouldn’t be the only place you’d see it. Also, the Jets apparently can’t trade for an RFA, so would not be permitted to include Jackson or Merriman in a trade.
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Bent,
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn’t notice that the first time I read it. Its probably just some fan with too much time on their hand trying to cause panic amongst Jets fans. That would be a crazy trade though. -
Bent says:
I think David Wyatt is an English based writer that does stuff for GGN and SBNation. I’m not sure this isn’t a hoax though, because that’s the only article anyone with that name has ever done for BR, having only just registered.
If it was that guy, I can’t see how he would manage to get inside sources from across the pond.
I bet Cimini will post later saying “a lot of people asked me about this so I checked into it and there’s no truth to it”. That’s what usually happens in these situations.
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This is the right move. Getting a quality veteran RB in here with this OL and head coach should not be a problem.
I even think C Taylor will be a better fit for what we want to do with the RB’s this year. Chester dosent need the ball alot, is a great receiving back and has a ton of tread on the tires for a veteran.
I wish TJ luck. He was a really good player for us. I am not sure where is going but he better hit the gym a little harder becasue it only get worse in regards to OL from here on another team.
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WOJF says:
It’s just the wrong thing to do, they will regret it.
The front office is radically remaking this team cutting important veteran contributors both on the field and in the locker room.
This is not going to go over well with the other players, especially this first time Greene fumbles in a big spot, or sits out yet another game with some little tweak of his many injury prone joints. Remember as Jones struggled vs. the Colts Greene was standing on the sidlines watching, not being rushed to some emergency room. Jones was probably feeling as much pain at that point in the season as Greene, but he was out there giving it his all, yet he gets criticized and cut for playing hurt.
As for Mr. T, praising him in this context for trading picks for veteran players seems misplaced. Cutting a player three years after trading for him is exactly why most GM’s frown on this practice. Perhaps he could have found the running back of the future with that sacrificed third round pick? After all, that is where he found Greene.
Jenkins has played 50% of his games since he was obtained, Lito is gone as are the draft picks, and Edwards remains an enigma and is not guaranteed to return. To praise Mr. T for these deals at this point is a tad silly.
And remember, Jenkins and Jones were trade AND signs, not just trades, some value has to be placed on the money and cap space, doesnt it? They could have kept the picks and signed players in free agency.
The Jones deal was by far the best, and even that has come to a conclusion after only three years.
So going into 2010 there is really not a lot to show for those sacrificed picks, is there?
I dont like the direction this is heading, but then again I have been wrong before and ultimately if Folk and whomever get the job done I will give Mr. T his credit as I did last year, just first guessing these moves at this time.
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A friend just asked the following question, what is the financial value of a draft pick??
IF they paid TJ the bonus, what could they get back for him in a trade with the acquiring team owing him “only” $2.5 Million for his services?
Would that pick be worth the cash? Probably not, but interesting question I thought.
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WOJF,
As a point of reference for your last question, Hakeem Nicks (29th pick last year, same that the Jets have this year) signed a 5 year $12.54 million rookie contract, with a $6.5 million signing bonus.
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tish says:
Why was Jenkins mentioned in an otherwise insightful article?
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WOJF,
I don’t think it’s fair for you or any of us to assume anything about the pain threshold of Greene. The guy hurt his ribs, an injury he had earlier in the year, so who is to say that he didn’t break the same ribs that he hurt during the season? Breathing with broken ribs is nearly impossible, so even the manliest of manly men would sit out if the right ribs were broken.
When you trade for a RB that is 29 years old, you realize it’s not going to be a very long relationship. And we didn’t give up picks for him, we swapped a 2nd round pick. No additional picks. The Lito trade only cost a 4th round pick, which is worth the gamble that a previous Pro-Bowl talent could find his mojo again. Jenks had a freak accident this season, and was having his best year because Rex figured how to keep him fresh, look for him bounce back in a BIG way (last time he tore his other ACL, he came back to have his All-Pro season).
So for a 4th, two 3rds, two fifths and swapping 2nds the Jets got 3 productive years at RB, 22/32 games from an All-Pro NT (and more to come), 3/4 a season from a game-changing WR, with more to come (Braylon will be back since the team plans to Tender him for a 1st & 3rd and teams likely won’t match), and threw away a 4th for a gamble at CB. I can live with that gamble since it was widely agreed upon that Lowery couldn’t man that spot himself.
I don’t think that’s “not a lot to show” from those low-level picks, whose draftees sometimes never even see the field in their careers.
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Bent says:
Tish – Huh? As far as I can see all he said was that the Jets have traded picks for veterans a few times in recent years and cited Jenkins as one example. What’s wrong with that?
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Off topic a little but I heard an interview with Mangini yesterday. First he sounded much more comfortable than I have ever heard and he was actually funny during the conversation ( he will be a good HC one day) but he did have this stance on the combine:
He stated he didnt care about the bench press or 40 times or how a guy looked in his shorts but cared more about his football IQ, his passion for the game, how he would fit into his system etc…..
How the hell did we draft Vernon Gholston then?
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Ben Nevis says:
Bassett-
This is what you wrote on February 24 (five days ago):
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“The more I think about it, the more I think the insurance policy that Thomas Jones provides to the team might make it worthwhile for the Jets to bite the bullet, and pay Jones the money owed him during the final year.”
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So five days ago, Bassett, you were saying that the Jets should NOT ONLY bring Thomas Jones BACK, but also pay him ALL of the $5-million-plus that they owed him in 2010.
Then today, five days later, you say it was the “right decision” to let TJ go.
You were right the first time, my friend.
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Given that it was one of the last posts on a very, very long thread, I thought a lot of people might have missed what miketaliaferro had to say about the Jets decision to cut Thomas Jones.
So here is miketaliaferro:
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RB has gone from one of the Jets’ strongest suits to an area that’s completely up in the air.
Let that sink in, boys and girls…
RB has gone from one of the Jets’ strongest suits to an area that’s completely up in the air.
Even if Leon’s leg doesn’t respond, or, god forbid, if he’s just not the same player he was before having his leg snapped in two, you know TJ could carry the load. Even if SG continues his trail of injured body parts, you know that TJ would be there until the kid healed yet once again.
Not just on a ‘ well, somebody’s-gotta-do-it’ level, but on a Top 3 NFL level — with every defense we face putting 7, 8 guys in the box, knowing full well exactly what we’re going to do, and yet we still do it just the same. All game. We didn’t out-strategize other teams this year, we beat them up. They put their best brawlers in the box, and we did the same, and we Beat. Them. Up. For a league-best 2,756 rushing yards — 1,402 of them by TJ.
The fantasy leaguers here yell that he ran into the backs of the OL, and was slow and did little. But they do not understand Rex, or what a ‘Ground & Pound’ attack means. The OL’s backs were there because they 1) were out-manned at the point of attack at the start of every game by design, and 2) were learning an entirely new blocking scheme which took weeks to get down and longer to perfect but which lead to that league-best rushing attack. It’s not a system designed to run over you, or run roughshod over a team. It’s designed to let us know you’re gonna try to stop us but we’re still gonna pick, pick, pick until we see where your weak spot is, then we’re gonna hit it with everything we’ve got until we make you scream ‘Uncle!’ or just give up. Then we run to daylight. It’s not a system geared for gaudy numbers; it’s a system designed to win ballgames. And the perfect fit for that was Thomas Jones. As glamorous a lunch bucket guy there was in the league.
I’ll happily sit with anyone to watch game film, where we’d see the early attempts go nowhere due to superior D numbers. But then we’d see the consistency of our attack, where our OL refused to give in, and made those superior D numbers pay dearly for their standing in that gap. Later in the game, when they were slow to react and were generally hurting from being pounded on all game, they just couldn’t react to TJ making that cut and run for longer and longer gains as the game wore on.
The only difference from that and the playoffs, is 1) TJ got dinged, and the unexpected 331 carries he endured finally began to wear him down. He still proudly took the early head-banging carries. But when it came time to take advantage of the tongue-dragging on the other side, it was SG who benefited. Early in the year, those long runs late were TJ’s. In the playoffs, SG took them. Same plan.
In Indy, we saw what may happen when those tough, ‘ain’t nothing there’ carries early in every game are in SG’s hands. What happens to those ribs from Week 1 through Week 17 in 2010??
Now, TJ’s gone, the locker room sees that your best will never be good enough, and we’re betting the entire season on a backfield of Mr. BROKEN and Mr. BRITTLE.
To make matters worse, some on this board have tossed out the names of every over-the-hill, rummy RB who’s been tossed aside by THEIR team as the perfect replacement for the man who’s jock they could only dream of carrying.
Others are pushing the idea — thought of as ludicrous five weeks ago, that RB may be an area to address in the FIRST ROUND!!! When we have so many other need areas that we’ve all been talking about having to fill all season. Now, RB is a NEED folks want to fill with a 1st Round pick or the rummy du jour?
I was bitterly disappointed upon hearing about TJ. But, now I’m angry. If Tanny didn’t want to pay TJ his money, fine. Happens all the time in the NFL. Don’t pay the money. I don’t think TJ would be shocked at that. That only says, you’re worth ‘C,’ but I can only pay, ‘A.’ No harm in that. Just business. But to degrade and demean the man by asking him to take a PAY CUT to keep his job, without some other incentive that neither side in this has mentioned?
I salute TJ for not backing down to Tanny’s short-sighted attempt to slash TJ’s pay check when TJ just out-performed the entire league for two years — including the rummies some would replace him with. Including some has-beens who are one to four years younger than TJ. Including some mid-level RBs on the yardage list who earn more that TJ.
New England would happily cut their whole RB roster to get a runner of TJ’s caliber, and he fits the serviceable older RB with something left mold NE loves. The nightmare scenario is NE signing TJ, then offering a poison-pill offer to Leon. Think Bellichik wouldn’t adore replacing Mulroney and Fred with TJ and Leon? To line up behind Brady? Lordy, in a heartbeat.
I never buy jerseys since the guy always seems to end up elsewhere as soon as I buy one, but I think I may break down and buy a Jones/20 Green Jets jersey. Just to honor one of the best RBs this franchise has ever known.
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As of yesterday the 2010 NFL Combine has the newest Vernon Gholston ….. Bruce Campbell of Maryland.
This guy looks like an animal and ran a 4.7 40 and 32 reps of 225 as a OL…..lol. I cringed every time VG names was attached to a great “workout”
BTW….B Graham looka awesome and has the film to back it up. I doubt he will fall to #29 now
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Ben
I am more worried about the posion pill contract to leon than TJ playing for NE.
Again i like TJ but let him go see what the OL at NE and T Brady throwing 45 times a gain does for him and his numbers.
TJ didnt have to take a pay cut and the jets had the right to release him. I have no complaints with either side here.
Replacing TJ will be a lot easier than you think…..
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Drew-
Obviously, I disagree. But I’m happy to leave it at that.
We’ve discussed this subject endlessly, over and over and over again.
Just thought it worthwhile that people get a chance to read what miketaliaferro said.
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The right move.
Last time the Jets held on to an aging back it was Curtis Martin, coming off a career year…he was never the same player. Although TJ is in phenomenal condition, there is no reason to think that he would be more durable, long-lasting than Martin.
Hopefully(for the Jets), he will test the waters and resign for lower compensation with a diminshed role.
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“Even if SG continues his trail of injured body parts, you know that TJ would be there until the kid healed yet once again.” Like in the AFC Championship game?
“We didn’t out-strategize other teams this year, we beat them up. They put their best brawlers in the box, and we did the same, and we Beat. Them. Up.” Agreed. Except, that was the O-line & T-Rich doing the beating. TJ didn’t beat people up as he ran, he doesn’t have a brutal or powerful rushing style.
As for the “designed to be out-manned”. Um, no? We used a ton of double tights jumbo (giving the team 9 men vs. whatever the D had) and standard 1 TE, 2 RB sets (giving the Jets 8 men vs. whatever the D had). Yes, some plays there were outmanned, but just as many plays they lined up with 10 guys in the box and said “Ok, defense, here we come”.
In Indy, Greene was already average 4 YPC when Jones is usually around 3, and Greene’s first two carries of the 2nd half (the 2nd of which got him injured) both went for 7 yards. Greene wears down a defense faster and has more ability to break tackles and make guys miss. He moves piles on his own and I can’t remember the last time I saw TJ do that.
Greene is brittle now? He played one season and had nagging injuries, the kind that all players deal with throughout their careers. He also touched the ball 315 times in his final year at Iowa without missing a game or fumbling the ball. He’s a feature back to a T, he just needed a season to get acclimated to the NFL. To think that one year of small, nagging injuries is going to be a precursor to a career of injuries isn’t logical.
There are many RB options. Mike Bell, Chester Taylor, Jamal Lewis, or a late round pick in this RB heavy draft. Remember, this is a guy who may get 5 touches a game and have to start a game or two if Greene gets dinged (with his running style, it could happen). It’s not exactly an impossible position to fill.
Again with this “demeaning TJ” stuff. How? How is Tanny asking TJ to take a paycut demeaning? They ask multiple stars every year, all teams do. They knew TJ wasn’t going to get the same workload, so why pay him starter’s money? Why tie up $6million with a guy who won’t see 150 touches the entire season? A paycut was realistic and I still don’t see how asking TJ is demeaning him.
TJ will be more easily replaced than anyone of the Tanny-hating Pro-TJ crowd (which is different than the strictly Pro-TJ crowd) wants to acknowledge.
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Big W says:
Love TJ, sorry to see him go. In a year where there is no cap and they are charging outrageous PSLs just keep him for one more year. Now they have to spend a draft pick on the position. Greene last all 2 1/2 games as the feature back and Little Leon is coming off an injury. Love Leon and I love the way Greene played in the playoffs, but with the way Greene runs and the way the Jets run the ball so much, how is he going to stay healthy? They will need to replace Jones with a high quality back. Someone that can take a pounding. Mr. T has done a good job, but now you likely have to use a pick on rb, that could have been used on a different position. Does anyone feel comfortable with Folk either? The Jets are going to be in the market for a kicker too. Feely has a better chance of coming back than Jones though. Jones will be picked up by someone. He is probably the best vet rb other than Sproles….
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TJ made $900,000 last year and played through it. Everyone would have killed him if he sat out, but now when he is going to make $5.8 mill, he is released. He was like the 3rd leading rusher last year and made $900,000. Average it out and it is like $3 mill for the last two years. At the end of the year, he was obviously playing hurt. Just give him some rest and pay him in the final season. It is not like there is a cap or they don’t have the money.
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Big W,
In 2007 (his first year here, and by far his worst) he was paid as a top 3 RB. In 2008 he was paid as a top 10 RB. So excuse me while I shed no tears for him making $1,000,000 in his best year. It evens out in the end.
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dave b says:
Basset,
Excellent article. I definitely think we’ll be better off, but it’s tough to watch TJ go.
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I’m confident that Sanchize will make great progress in year 2 and put a rest to that whole 8 & 9 man in the box stuff & he also becomes the vocal leader in the huddle(QB should always lead).About all the “can Greene handle the load” i’d much rather find out sooner rather than later.I’m posative we won’t draft a back this year which is good it’s best we go the FA route.we fill all defensive kneeds and next year if kneed be we go RB/Oline come draft day.This move is about more than just saving money in my book.
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Bassett – you sly dog, you knew this was going to happen. You wrote that it would “likely” happen a few times when nothing had been announced publicly to remotely indicate that .
Man, what a cool gig you have, I hope it pays. You deserve it.
Sorry to see TJ go, I hope it doesn’t come back to bite them in the a$$. -
Bent:
Always looking at the skinny. This is what moore said in his interview right after comming back:
“Once I hit free agency, teams were definitely interested. I just think it worked out where the Jets came back to me with some more offers and it worked out. When it came down to make a deal and talk numbers, the Jets were the ones that came back and were ready to get it done”
Now, Tannenbaum would have never paid him that original $7Million bonus upfront, that is why he released him, but did wind up having to resign him and give him more $$$ per year, with $10 million gteeto come back.
I know that you would paint that favorably, but I call itbeing lucky to get Moore back and ” having to eat crow”.
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Brendan:
“We didn’t out-strategize other teams this year, we beat them up. They put their best brawlers in the box, and we did the same, and we Beat. Them. Up.”
Except the ‘Phins!!!!
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zenlaw says:
I agree that TJ was the first in a succession of many good trades made by Tanny. I also hate to see TJ go, but the time is right. To pay him $5 Million for what will probably be only 150-175 carries with diminishing returns as the season progresses makes no sense.
Plenty of backs will be available as FA’s. Also, with the Jets o-line intact, any decent back will succeed in this offense. Plus, the Jets still have Greene and Leon. I really don’t think RB is a position of concern.
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Brendan, to clarify, I was wondering whethar it would make sense to pay the bonus to TJ, then trade him as opposed to just releasing him?
Is the draft pick we would get in return (4th?) worth paying the bonus money?
This is what I meant by “what is the value of the draft pick”?
On my other point, Jets have sacrificed six picks(5th, two 4th’s, three 3rds) for renting those four players.
Yes TJ has been a warrior and Jenkins is a beast when healthy, but IF we kept those six picks perhaps we could have found a long term running back and nose tackle?
And everyone conveniently forgets the money and applicable cap hit. If you draft a player instead you still have the money to sign a free agent.
So Mr. T could have drafted six players in rounds 3-5 AND signed TWO major free agents instead of making those trades.
I maintain, and will to my dying day, that trade and signs are bad long terms moves, and most GM’s in the league agree which is why you rarely see them.
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SackDance99 says:
Bassett,
Great article. TJ just wasn’t worth the money for a back up role and his under 3 YPC in 5 of his last 6 games cast doubt on his continuing effectiveness. I thought TJ was a good, hard runner who hit the LOS as fast and hard as any RB in the NFL. The problem was that once he made it to the second level, he lacked the elusiveness and breakaway ability of elite RBs. Shonn Greene has elite RB skills. He should be the feature RB and paying nearly $6 million for a back up makes no rational economic sense.
I also disagree with the notion that the Jets have so many holes that “wasting” a pick on an RB would be a bad move. The Jets have a 39-year old FB. An RB/FB combo would fit right in to what the Jets need to remain a “ground and pound” force for the forseeable future So, whether through the draft, UDFA or signing a cut player, the Jets should be able to replace TJ rather easily. And, I still think Toby Gerhart in the 2nd round would be a great addition. A backfield of Greene, Gerhart and Washington and the Jets would just “ground and pound” teams into submission.
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Hank,
1- That was Mike’s quote, that I was merely agreeing with.
2- We did beat up the Phins defense, we lost it with lapses on defense and special teams.
WOJF,
We used a 3rd & 5th on both Braylon and Jenks. We used a 4th on Lito. We swapped 2nds with the Bears. So we gave away two 3rds, one 4th, two 5ths and got TJ for the value of a 3rd round pick (so we’ll call that a wash since we gave up a 3rd but got back definitely a 3rd rounds worth of production). Not sure where you get three 3rds, two 4ths and two 5ths from.
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The third 3rd is the value of the second round swap, as you state.
That’s six picks, PLUS the money and cap space, not to mention useful contributors Stuckey (7th round pick) and Trusnik (who we missed).
I liked the TJ deal at the time and still want him to stay, but in general believe trade and sign will hurt you in the long run since you essentially are signing a free agent AND giving up picks.
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So we got a pro-bowl WR, pro-bowl RB, pro-bowl NT and took a gamble on an old pro-bowler hoping he could regain form. To do this we gave up a special teams player (a good one, but a ST player nonetheless), a slot receiver, and picks. I would 100% do that again.
All those picks, btw, equal a late 1st round pick. So for a late first round pick the Jets got Braylon, Jenkins, TJ & Lito. Thank you and yes please.
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Bent says:
Wise – yes, but they have all been better than you would expect from just using the pick. You’re getting a sure thing.
Look at the other side of the coin. It’s no different from the decision whether to extend a player. If the Jets extended Vilma, that would have cost them cap space and they would have never received the pick they got by trading him. Did the Saints get hosed though? Nope, he helped them win a title.
The last 3 3rd rounders, 1 4th and 2 5ths the Jets drafted…Greene, Schlegal, Eric Smith, Dwight Lowery, Erik Ainge, Jason Pociask. You wouldn’t trade them for Jenkins, Jones, Lito and Braylon, would you? As for signing them to extensions, giving up the picks (which I think i’ve just proven is worthwhile) enables you to target guys who are perfect fits, rather than just being restricted to those who are on the FA market.
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Hey SD:
Here are some stats for you:
There are about 210 RB’s/FB’s in the NFL.
Guess how many were able to carry 200 times but less than 300?
sixten (16) or about 0.08%
Guess how many were able to rush for OVER 300 times?
Seven (7) or about 0.03% …….Jones was #2
Noticed Jones was # Thirty One (31) in top RB Salaries paid last year!!!
Tannenbaum= Penny wise/pound foolish!!!!
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Hank,
Jones was 3rd in RB salary in 2007, when he averaged 3.6 yards per carry and had 2 touchdowns (1 receiving, 1 rushing). So that was worth being the 3rd highest paid RB in football? When he had over 300 touches? As I’ve been saying to other posters, the salary argument isn’t valid since he clearly didn’t come close to being a top 3 RB that year.
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I have to admit that releasing TJ feels “pennywise, poundfoolish” in an uncapped year, but if Greene stays healthy and curbs his fumblitis, Leon returns even somewhat to form and we pick up a decent player to fill the void, we won’t feel it that much. Still think he would’ve been a great insurance policy. Expensive as a backup? Hell yeah, but do I give a damn for an owner who wants to fleece as many of us as possible with PSAs? Hell, no.
Too bad TJ wouldn’t budge on re-negotiating. Don’t quite know what he thinks he can get out there, will be interesting to see. -
Jones should have held out last year in retrospect. I hope that we do the right thing and find a way to keep him here.
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Brendan:
C’mon guy, you keep bringing that silly fact up.
Try these:
How about Jone was the only RB (i believe) within the last five years with five consecutive 1000+ rushing yards with about 1000 rushing attemptsand NOT missing a BEAT?
Or,
How about Jones EARNINGt he lowest $$$$$/yd rushed of all RB’s in ’09?
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NYCPE:
That is a LOTTA IFS, right?
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Hank, I keep bringing it up because it’s relevant.
Everyone weeping for the poor millionaire NFL star who only made $1,000,000 last year, when he got a big payday to do very little in 2007. So you complain he was underpaid in 2009, and I counter with he was overpaid in 2007. In my mind, those two years even out, and he was pretty fairly compensated in 2008. That means, to me, in his 3 years he was fairly compensated as a whole.
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To the Pro-TJ guy’s,Thank’s!!!To the rest,explain to me who can protect Mr.Mark?Not only was TJ a great N.F.L. running-back but a positive citizen as well.Graduated from College in three year’s.A special thank’s to MikeTaliaferro for great commentary.I could’nt have said it better.
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Brendan, I agree that TJ was fairly compensated as a whole while he was here. Don’t really agree that he did very little in 2007. The guy played behind a terrible Oline with either an injured chad or KC as the QB. Still got over 1000 yards and while that may no longer be the milestone it once was, I feel it was a milestone behind that year’s swiss cheese Oline. I thought he played his heart out every year he was here, and earned his fair compensation.
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tjmax,
Who can protect Mark? Let’s hope the O-line, since that’s what we pay them for.
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NYCPE,
To be honest, I agree. But people make it seem that 2007 was due to a horrendous O-line, but this year was solely TJ. It’s like there’s no middle ground. TJ couldn’t make his own yards in 2007, and the O-line made him more effective this year.
I think the good from this year was a little “too good” and the bad from 2007 was a little “too bad” if you understand what I mean. I think 2008, with a good, not great, O-line and a good, not great TJ, is the median and what I believe TJ’s real worth is.
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Brendan, agreed, 100%. A monster Oline helps any back and certainly can make a good one seem excellent.
Still woulda kept him this year without cap ramifications, guess that’s why I’m not the GM! Or maybe owner is more like it!
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greenie says:
have to agree with hank/naples,
“Penny wise/pound foolish!!!!”
if he’d be 2nd or 3rd back in 2010, he’d be the best 2nd or 3rd back in the league. -
Brendan:
You know, you keep insisting that soo overpaid in ’07, but you did not do the math!!!
AS bad as you say he was, dollar to donuts that he was NOT the HIGHEST paid RB per carry in ’07 BUT he WAS the LOWEST paid RB per carry in ’09.
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Bent says:
“he WAS the LOWEST paid RB per carry in ‘09.”
Apart from:
- Adrian Peterson
- Ray Rice
- Jamaal Charles
- Jerome Harrison
- Marion Barber
- Pierre Thomas
- Kevin Smith
- Matt Forte
- Justin Forsett
- Ahmad Bradshaw
- Tim Hightower
- Steve Slaton
- Mike BellI may have missed some others.
Slaton, Bell and Forte were the only three with a lower ypc than Jones.
His average salary over the three years was 4.7m, which would have been 12th highest in the NFL in 2009.
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miketaliaferro says:
Brendan,
One thing we can agree on, which others can’t see, it seems, is that none of TJ’s salary years have been typical — by design — due specifically IMHO to how it was structured when it was struck.Coming off of a SB, he had leverage so he used it. He didn’t trust the Jets (or any team) to not do what they just did to him (smart call), so he had it front-loaded. Fine.
I should say at this point that I brought up TJ’s being the 57th highest paid RB in ’09 not in order to say he was grossly underpaid, but to point out that contract’s structure offered Tanny a year within it that offered an easing of payment pressure and allowed Tanny some much-needed flexibility. TJ made what he made that year by design, regardless of what others made.
The further point about that 3rd year is that TJ worked just as hard as he had the other two years because that’s the only way he knows how to work, and he understood the overall numbers of the contract. So, he kept his mouth shut with the press, became a loud voice in the locker room, and carried the load against stacked decks to a #3 finish in rushing.
What concerns me is your continued dogging of his overall play for the life of the contract. I’m not sure what you wanted of the man, or what he could have done to please you, or who you think was a better, more consistent runner from 2007 until today.
He wasn’t good enough to somehow overcome one of the worst OLs in franchise history in ’07. A line that would have gotten Gayle Sayers killed. The fact is that he survived that experience and still gained 1,119 yards placed him at #10 among NFL rushers (#5 in the AFC). Behind THAT line. A Top 10 rusher on a rotten team. And he was UNDERPAID? Sorry, amigo, I just don’t see it. I say give the man a medal for what he did that year. The contract was front loaded into that year by design. It wasn’t his fault the team stunk. That 3.6 YPC may have been his best personal work of the contract.
His 2008 only won the AFC rushing title (#5 in the NFL this time), and that was only due to an improved OL, of course. Because TJ is clearly deficient (YPC – 4.5).
His 2009 only produced 1,402 yards (third in the NFL, YPC – 4.2), so obviously he squandered an OL running on all cylinders from Day One by not gaining 2000+ yards.
So, in three years he finished as a Top 10 rusher, a Top 5 and a Top 3 in the league. There are, what, 60 – 70 RBs in the league?
No, I do not shed a tear for TJ’s financial history (and future). He’s very well off. What I see is someone who not only held up their end of the bargain, he even prospered and lead.
I’m simply having a very hard time seeing this useless RB you keep writing about — esp. for 2007.
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Bent:
Sorry Bent, this time you are wrong. You can’t jump in the middle of a conversation and expect to be right all the time.My discussion with Brendan was involving RB’s that A) Are NOT under rookie contracts, and
B) My assertion is salary earned per carry, NOT yds. per carry.
Looked at your top eight (8) on your list and the only one that qualifies is Marion Barber ( I believe) and he beats Jones by more than $17.00/carry.
I did not bother to do the math on the others
PS. A Peterson signed a contract with $17 million gteed.
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Bent says:
Hank – That WAS salary per carry. I just pointed out that only three of them had lower yards per carry as well, because my intention was to point out that there are guys out there that carry the ball more cost effectively than he did even in the lowest year, salary wise, of his contract. If you’re looking at salary per carry, then where do you think he would rank next year, earning $6m and carrying the ball maybe as low as 100-150 times if he’s the 3rd RB? Probably most expensive in the NFL. That’s what happens when you have a contract that fluctuates like this one.
As, I said average salary over the three years was 4.7m, which would have been 12th highest in the NFL in 2009. That’s reasonable enough. Paying him $5.8m in the year when he’s a backup when you have no obligation to do so, obviously made no financial sense to them. I’d have done it anyway, but I can see how they might think they can do something more cost effective.
I accept that most of these are in their rookie contract and I missed that part of your conversation, but look at the decision that is facing the Jets now. Clearly, they might choose to replace him with a rookie, so this has shown that they can get great value for their money, especially when compared with $6m (which would have been a top 8 salary in 2009) instead of $1m.
“A Peterson signed a contract with $17 million gteed.”
So? The money he received last year was $745,000 and he had almost as many carries as Jones. Jones signed a contract with $8m guaranteed, but only received $1,000,000 last year.
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The point I was trying to make in my last post above is — Tanny has received full value for any and all monies he’s paid TJ over three years.
And also that TJ has earned the right to be paid like the Top 10 back that he is.
Bent —
Any idea about Peterson’s contract numbers and structure? Is that a trough year also, like TJ’s? -
Mike,
I am not saying that it’s TJ’s fault completely for 2007. I’m just saying for his performance, he was overpaid. He was underpaid this year. The fluctuating contract, I agree, was structured this way on purpose. Give TJ solid pay years, give a trough year for cap relief, and his last year has no dead money. Pretty fair contract for both sides. I agree with your last post, aside from top 10 back statement. Basically when I think “top 10 back” I think of the first 10 guys at RB I’d pick if we were playing a pickup game. He’s just not top 10 for me, and on this I’m sure we can agree to disagree.
Hank,
Salary per carry, to me, doesn’t imply overpaid/underpaid. Production does. You can get 400 carries while getting $6.5 million, so by your stats that’d be fairly paid (or slightly overpaid) but if that guy gets 1200 yards and 3 td’s, that’s overpaid.
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Bent says:
Mike – his salary jumps to 3.64m in 2010 and 7.72m in 2011, as far as I’m aware.
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Bent:
This is really just silly to go ’round ‘n round!! But I’ll take just one mo stab at it.
The crux of the matter is and should be, whether or not Jones has earned the right to fulfill his contract. and the club HONOR it…..NOT…..whether or not Jones will be/deserves to be a back-up this year!!!!
Keep in mind the latter will not be determined untill the “fat lady sings” -
We’re becoming fairly agreed there, Brendan.
Except on the use of backyard draft-pick bragging rights vs. official NFL player stats. On that, ahem, yes, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Bent –
Thanks for the numbers on AP. Hmmm, for a rookie contract (somehow, I thought he was older…) of $4.54m, 2.82m, 760k, 3.64m and 7.72m, now THERE is a man who’s underpaid. If this were not a rook contract, I’d say the 2011 year was also a fantasy. But he should get that. But for his future, if he keeps toting it in the high 300s (two of the last three years), he won’t have much left to offer for another contract.
Sad to see TJ go but something that had to be done for economics and to pave the way for Shonn and Leon.
Bassett – great point about the leadership. I know he’s only in year two, but I would love to see Sanchez become the leader in the lockeroom.