Link: Have Jets Passed Patriots Talent Level?
I missed slapping this up here yesterday, but Peter King talks about the Jets and their chances in his weekly Tuesday Mailbag column.
THE JETS ARE PRETTY GOOD. From Kevin Bedard of Westford, Mass.: "Two things … 1. Laurence Maroney — I completely agree. I don’t like his running style. He’s good for a burst of eight or a two-yard loss while he dances behind the line looking for a hole. Nothing in between. I was never on board with the release of Corey Dillon in favor of Maroney. 2. After the free agent pick ups and the draft selections by the Jets, I have to say I am scared! They went to the AFC Championship Game last year and I think they’re going to be a much better team this year. I think their weakest link now is [Mark]Sanchez, who is not that weak. They have improved their already very good running game with LT, their receiver corps, their secondary. And that doesn’t include their draft picks. Not sure what Bill Belichick has up his sleeve to combat them. Your thoughts on the AFC East this year?”
I’m trying to sort all of that out right now. The Jets have gotten close to the Patriots, and perhaps surpassed them, and the Patriots have tinkered with the roster while the Jets have added the most name players of any team in football to the roster. I think the Patriots haven’t addressed two significant needs on their roster enough — running back and wide receiver. But Belichick’s the smartest guy in the league, and I don’t say that flippantly or derisively; I mean it.
Belichick obviously thinks the aging Fred TaylorandSammy Morris are enough of a complement to Maroney. I just don’t like Maroney. I just thought that with all the draft currency Belichick had, that he would have improved his running game by now. The Patriots were 12th in the NFL in running the football last year, which is pretty good, but those guys are another year older, along with Kevin Faulk, and it’ll be interesting to see if the Pats can somehow fashion a playoff running game out of the bodies they have.
I like hearing that about the talent level of the Jets. I would agree, but I do think that the Patriots are re-loading with their last two draft classes and could have a good core group in place in the coming five years. Maybe the talent level is higher for the Jets right now, but I do think that the Patriots have done a solid job of building a young group of players too.
75 Responses to Link: Have Jets Passed Patriots Talent Level?
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BigKatt says:
I disagree. I don’t think that their drafts have been that great the last few years, especially compared to ours.
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Ben Nevis says:
Bassett—
I love what Mike T and especially Rex have done to this team, and I think it’s quite possible that our overall talent level has surpassed that of the Pats right now.
Trouble is anytime I hear Peter King say anything I agree with it makes me question it. The man just doesn’t really understand the game
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jp losman says:
big katt –
it seems like belicheek is looking for quality through quantity. i have to agree he hasn’t hit a HR with that approach lately, but as JETS fans, we fear any move he makes.
as for this rivalry, i’d love to see this as the NFL’s version of yanks/red sox.
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jmac_the_man says:
The Jets and Patriots weren’t all that far apart talent-wise last season. Both teams won their home games, and both teams did it mainly through game planning.
From a virtual tie, the Jets are the ones who added some of the most talented free agents in football this offseason. Who did the Pats pick up?
I can’t wait to see the Patriots in our rear view mirror this season.
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WW85 says:
The Pats got younger on defense. Depending on how all their Florida players respond will be big. I don’t think they have enough corners to cover Braylon, Santonio, Cotch, but I do think they have the LBs to slow the run game.
My biggest fear is that the Jets are getting old in the front 7 on defense. Getting through hopefully 19 games takes a toll on the older vets. But the good thing is the Pats running game isn’t impressive.
Gonna be some great matchups.
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root says:
Lets not forget about their 2 first round picks in the 2011 draft. One of which is more than likely going to be a top 8 pick unless the Raiders play decent this year.
They also traded a lot this draft and im not clear on what they got in return. ( does anyone know?)
With that being said they seem to be loading up for next years draft.
I like our personnel moves. Rex is making the NYJ a instant contender and a team people want to play for. Even we have seen some departures of players I admire I am excited for the future.
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SackDance99 says:
One of the oddest things about the BB tenure in NE is his failure to draft running backs. There really is no excuse for the Pats’ dismal RB situation. He’s a smart coach and he saw up close how Parcells collected RBs. But, as HC of the Pats, he’s strictly relied upon retreads, except for Kevin Faulk. Virtually all of the other top HCs in NFL history made having a “bell cow” RB a cornerstone. But, except for getting great production from a vastly underappreciated Corey Dillon (like Parcells’ OJ Anderson), BB has really missed the boat on the RB position (mediocre RBs and FBs). Just weird.
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“The weakest link is Mark Sanchez, who is not that weak.”
That pretty much sums up our team right now, and he’s just going to keep getting better.
This team is nearly flawless.
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iJets says:
On paper the Jets seem to have surpassed the Patriots with respect to talented players.
I do not usually focus on opposing teams until August. But it appears that the Patriots have focused more of their team additions via the draft than the Jets.
BB is a PROVEN SB winning coach with Tom Terrific and the Patriots are the current AFC division champs. So, until the Jets sweep the Pats (I hope) and win out the division we have to accept the fact that the Patriots are still a formaidable and serious threat to the Jets regardless of the amount of talented players the Jets have.
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JetSyd says:
Wow, I absolutely bleed green but I worry about such heady expectations. Last time I felt this good, Vinny T broke my heart and its hard to forget Chad’s promise disappearing before our eyes. This is not SOJ in any capacity but he law of physics and football.
I do object to the rotisseriesque label being placed on the jets. I think it was much more calculating and opportunistic based on the Rex factor.
Players want to play for him = strong locker room, strong game plan, inspired performances –> delivers on leagues leading defense. That’s big balls.
More like – the Jets targeted CB and WR – found young, troubled, disaffected pro bowl calibre players for a new home and the opportunity to be swept along and to rewrite their NFL legacy = pay day.
The other moves: LT is a switch to an aging, pass catching #2 RB for fading soon-to-be #2 RB. JT – is jojimbo – low risk, will need to be game planned, will open up opportunities and maybe get 10 sacks. AT would be more than a gun for hire.
It all really comes down to Sanchez.
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hank/naples says:
A while back I mentioned exactly that!!!
NE has drafted 24 players the last two drafts to our 7 and Belichick already has 10 stock piled with two in the first round for next year.
Tannenbaum and Rex are taking the draft too lightly with a WIN NOW mode the last three (3) years!!!
Sooner or later this will kick us in the butt!!
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Give Leon The Damn Ball (new name pending) says:
aside for the obvious advantage at qb i’d say that the jets definitely have more talent than the pats on both sides of the ball. even better, we match up great against them even if they had a healthy welker. revis takes out randy then who the heck is brady going to beat us with? holt and edelman?
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Correction:
“Tannenbaum and (NOW) Rex are taking……..”
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Sack—
“One of the oddest things about the BB tenure in NE is his failure to draft running backs.”
Interesting point. Tim Graham over at ESPN’s AFC East blog made virtually the same point this morning.
Thought you might be interested in what TG wrote:
“The Patriots have taken a peculiar approach to running back, and that could haunt them. Since 2002, the Patriots have drafted more quarterbacks than running backs. In that stretch, they’ve drafted QBs Rohan Davey, Kliff Kingsbury, Matt Cassel, Kevin O’Connell and Zac Robinson and RBs Antwoine Womack, Cedric Cobbs, Laurence Maroney and Justise Hairston. Not a high batting average there. Veteran backs Kevin Faulk, Fred Taylor and Sammy Morris each will be at least 33 this season. That gives the maddening Maroney another shot to be the featured back.”
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Eric in StL says:
hank/naples,
the Jets have drafted 17 people in the last five years. among these players are Revis, Harris, Keller, Greene, Mangold, Brick, and Sanchez (I’m not including any from this year’s draft). compare that to BB’s 1000 draft picks. there is no one on that list that’s even close to comparable to the guys the Jets have picked up. go look at it for yourself: http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=3200&type=team
whose on there, pat chung? ron brace? mayo is the only one worth a damn in the last few years. i’ve personally had enough with the pats- they are worse at every position on the field except QB and in the playoffs this past year- Sanchez looked damn good. the patriots are simply not that good and anyone who thinks BB is a genius for getting all of these picks- click on that link and find out how many are still on the team and of those that are, how many could even dream of having the talent level of the Jets players that I named. the pats are finished- they don’t have anyone that good, while the Jets have talent everywhere. those who don’t see that are living in the past.
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*27 people- sorry for the typo
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seanmac31 says:
Well, in large part, Belichick hasn’t drafted running backs because his running game was fine without one. Over the last five years, the Pats’ rushing DVOA has ranked 9th, 4th, 2nd, 8th and 17th, so they’ve been perfectly capable of running the ball when they felt like it. They just didn’t feel like because, well, when you have Tom Brady and Randy Moss, calling a running play is kind of a loss.
Considering that RB is both one of the more fungible positions and one with a short shelf life, and that running the ball is considerably less important than passing the ball, it’s been a very viable approach. Faulk and Morris are on their last legs, but I don’t doubt the Pats can find replacements for them, and they don’t necessarily need the draft to do so.
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JEFFDOLFINI says:
I disagree on the draft thing. We may have only had a few draft picks in the last few years, but almost all of them have hit besides Ghost. How many of the Patriots picks have hit the past few years? Not alot……………. We are just fine for the future, most of our players are in their prime and we have young players in Revis, Harris, Keller, Leonhard, Ferguson, Mangold, Braylon, and Greene. We have a really good foundation of young players. Our future, right now, looks brighter that the Patriots. Brady will be 33 or 34 this year……………….
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JoeF says:
The problem with our drafting isn’t the amount of ‘hits’ we have, it’s the solid mid-round depth guys that the Pats have and we frankly do not.
We’ve benefitted from amazing luck with our offensive line the last two years – not one injury, minor or major, in an area with no real depth. Think we’re the no.1 rushing attack behind Turner and Slauson?
DeVito is currently a starting DE, scary enough on its own even before you realise the only backup is Gholston!
Without great luck with injuries the last two years, we’d be a sub-500 team (heck we were only 9-7 anyway). Luck *always* evens out, so without quality depth, we could fall off a cliff…
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Zartan says:
Belichick, does’nt know talent. He is the smartest coach right now.Rex is no slouch, Maybe it’s cause he’s a Jet but i think of him as the best overall coach.
Pats have been getting players of a Bryan Thomas caliber(good but not high impact). Jets on the other hand….
What the Jets do with the next Draft, will determine if the jets will be Elite.
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Tom in Raleigh says:
Reading this stuff gets me really pumped. I think this Jets team could be really special. Best one we have ever seen.
I get worried, because the last time I thought like this was just before the 99 season…and we know how that turned out.
Still. I think we may have the best team in football. It’s all about Sanchez, if he is improved, this team will be unbelievable.
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JoeF,
What are you talking about? Firstly, besides Revis our secondary was decimated with injuries last year. How about Jenkins? Leon? Two pro bowlers who missed almost all of the season. What about Greene being beat up a lot of the time and having to come out during the AFCCG? Does that not count? Or Strickland being hurt in that same game so that Lowery and Coleman could get abused over and over again? How about Scott playing in that game on one leg? Not to mention the QB who needed knee surgery after the season. DeVito is fine and you picked the spot on the field (DE in a 3-4) that is for all intents and purposes useless. Those mid-round depth guys that the Pats drafted are useless and mostly aren’t on the team anymore. How many roster spots do you think an NFL team has Joe? The Jets were killed by injuries early in the season last year and in the AFCCG were finally crushed by them. As for the year before, the Jets were 8-3 before Favre tore his biceps tendon. You are either:
1. Not a Jets fan and are just trying to insult the team
2. A person who doesn’t watch/play football with any knowledgeor
3. A typical pessimist Jets fan
Whichever of the 3 you are, it doesn’t really matter- you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Also, for the record, the Jets running game will be better and it will be behind Slauson at LG.
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Word up Eric
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rusty sanchez says:
our d did do great for all the injuries we had lito and strickland were getting hurt every other game jenkins out half a season plus harris scott and ellis were banged up the las month also pace suspended the first 4 games too…now if none of that hapens this year our d has a chance to be better
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plus with the exception of ellis jenkins woody and t-rich this team is anywhere from there prime years to young so hopefully we can resign alot of our own talent and draft well and this team should be good for a while
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oh snap i forgot to put tomlinson and talor on the old list
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Eddie DiGio says:
I dont care what the Pats DVOA is running the ball…they run the ball well because there passing game sets up the run…a lot of draws and misdirection
When the Pats have to get a first down on a key play, they always put the ball in the air…if they have to run the ball straight up, they cant do it
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Since Corey Dillon left they are a finesse team, still dangerous but they cant win tough physical battles like they used to
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A team like Baltimore beat the piss out of the Pats up and down the field…even Miami the second game this year beat the Pats up
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Chris says:
So typical of this board to bash a guy like Joe F. He actually does clearly understand the game because football is built from the inside out and that starts with the lines. I’m glad to see the Jets addressed the OL but obviously stepped back in releasing Faneca. As for the DL, it’s clearer not one you’d associate with a ‘dominant’ defense. As I’ve said before- I’d be prepared to match my ‘fandom’ to any other person out there but it gets a little old when you make good points only to have other morons bash it.
The Jets are disgustingly thin at each line. It’s just a fact. Could they get by with it, sure. Just as the Pats got by with their Rb’s over the years, some weaknesses can always be masked. But to think we’re going to rely on a defensive line that is old, thin and relatively unproductive is scary.
Again, this post is purely based on showing that everyone here can have valid opinions and appointed rationale. Some should do a better job accepting it, especially when it’s accurate. Don’t worry- putting down the kool aid for a few minutes won’t take away your value as a fan.
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john l says:
NE HAS WON NOTHING SINCE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO VIDEO TAPE………REMEMBER THAT!
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Actually Chris he’s wrong…the Pats have drafted horribly the past few years and in accumulating all those picks, only a couple of players are still in the NFL and a handful are still with the Pats…
Those “mid round” selections he was referring don’t exist on the present day Pats…maybe 6 years ago but not today
Has nothing to do with kool aid…his post is incorrect
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Chris,
This has nothing to do with Kool Aid drinking- the fact of the matter i that in a 3-4, the DEs are not asked to do all that much. The biggest factor in the front 7 in a 3-4 is the NT and we have Jenkins whose elite and if hurt, Pouha proved himself nicely last year. The other critical position is OLB with Pace for a full season and the Taylor/Thomas platoon (possibly with adalius thrown in there) they are fine at that position. Don’t you think if the DE were that important, Ryan and Mike T would have addressed that in the draft? According to Rex, secondary is the most important aspect of his defense and the Jets will be top in the land at that. Getting back Jenkins and having a now proven commodity in Pouha makes them set at NT. As for ILB, the Jets have the best tandem in football. For OLB, they are definitely above average. So the big complaint is the Jets are weak at DE because they have DeVito and Ellis. Forgive me Chris if I’m not going to be a negative Nancy here. A 3-4 DE is meant to absorb blockers- Gholston, Ellis, DeVito, et al. can do that just fine.
The Jets are going to kick the crap out of teams this year, remember this was Rex’s FIRST YEAR. He said Super Bowl and #1 D, he got one of those and came closer than we’ve been since Elway to the other (and without key injuries during that Colts game there was a chance). How can you doubt his moves now? The Jets lost 3-4 games because of Sanchez’s rookie errors. With that corrected (evidence in his playoff performance), the Jets are a 13 win squad, easily. People are cushioning the blow by being scared of success- have confidence, the Jets are an elite team in terms of talent and are certainly more talented than anyone in the AFC East. If the name on this team’s jersey were Colts, Steelers, Patriots, Giants, or Chargers- they would be the pick to win it all. Hence my comment that anyone who looks at this team with fear is blinded by the same old jets mentality.
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also Chris,
You don’t know how much depth you have until you have major injuries on the unit without the perceived depth. If there have never been any injuries to the OLine, how the heck can we evaluate the depth there? Do you mean to tell me that because the Pats have drafted a billion players (none of whom are playing in the league anymore) that they have All Pro tackles and guards waiting in the wings? They are called back ups for a reason. If our biggest weakness is we don’t have enough depth on the lines (Slauson, Turner, and Ducasse on O + Gholston, Ellis, Pouha, DeVito, and Pituita [sic])- then how should the Pats feel? They have a 34 year old QB on one leg (ask Palmer how it feels to play with knee surgery years later), 1 quality receiver who is old and lazy, no RBs, a mediocre offensive line, a rookie TE coming off of back surgery, no talent in the secondary, and a LB corps led by a young man with talent in Mayo who regressed severely after injury? You think the Pats should be more excited about this season? Again, if the names of the teams were switched- we wouldn’t be having this argument because a team with this much talent would be the runaway favorites.
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Aloco says:
13 wins baby!
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Hoodie hood says:
I agree….we gotta believe!…we’ve had enough heartache…I know I have…from elway and Atwater in 98….vinnys injury in 99….the choke in 2000….the blackhole in 01..and 02….Chad injury in 03…Doug frickin brien in 04…crazy injuries in 05…smoke and mirrors in 06…reality and tough losses in 07….favres arm and manidiot coaching in 08…and last year we where so close…our lucks gotta change!…..
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ray says:
The Pats have 2 1st round picks (Raiders) and 2 second (Panthers) round picks next year. If there is a rookie salary cap, then those picks become extremely valuable. Some have suggested the Jets are thin and creaky on the O and D line. The pats offensive line is also creaky and has something to do with the perceived poor performance in the short yard running game. They are decent in pass protection, but dont move people with their blocks (Mankins excepted). The three positions where it is thought they have improved over last season is TE, WR, and CB. Receivers were drafted last season knowing full well that they were immediately going to the IR, but now have a year of seasoning under their belt.
Should be a fun season!!!!
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calm down people..lets see how this team does..they could of missed the playoffs last season…they did improve..lets see how they do..dont get to crazy the colts are the best team in the afc
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mike s. says:
Let’s be clear, New England is the enemy… but they are a very formidable enemy. And they have clearly been restocking young players to develop for 2010 and beyond.
Let’s recap:
In 2009 they finished 10-6 and won the AFC East and beat the NY Jets in week 11, despite the season appearing to be a transition year, especially for the D.
In 2008, they finished 11-5 with QB Matt Cassel, but missed the playoffs. Not bad considering Cassel had to step in unexpectedly when Brady went down week 1.
In 2007 they finished a perfect 16-0 and if not for a key injury on the O-line in the 1st half, the Super Bowl may have ended a little differently.New England’s ability to continue to win while rebuilding is truly impressive. The team seems to be based on some core players on both sides of the ball, a few plug-n-play types, and some young talents that Belichick develops in the background..
THE OFFENSE
The offense still revolves around Brady, Moss, and Welker. They may have a weak run blocking O-line and very average RBs, but somehow they continue to score enough points to keep winning. And Belichick has quietly restocked some interesting young talents on the offensive side that could emerge in a few years:
WRs Julian Edelman, Taylor Price, and Brandon Tate
TEs Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez
OT Sebastian VollmerTHE DEFENSE
The truly impressive work has come on the defensive side of the ball. His defense is anchored by Wilfork, Warren, and Bodden. The D looked weak and fragile against Baltimore in the playoffs, but this unit was clearly in transition during 2010. Belichick seems to have quietly restocked this side of the ball with some interesting talents that and the unit could return to form faster than many expect:
LBs Tyrone McKenzie, Jermaine Cunningham, Jerod Mayo, and Brandon Spikes
CBs Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, and Devin McCourty
Safeties Pat Chung and Brandon Meriweather
DT Ron BraceThe bottom line is this team still has a single point of failure at QB, but if Brady and Moss stay healthy and they get improvement on the O-line, watch out!
In the NFL, you never know how injuries will impact a season, and you never know if the young players will make too many mistakes early in their careers to cost you games. But NE looks like they are restocked and will be a competitor for 2010 and beyond.BUT BE NOT AFRAID
But we Jet fans finally have a professional front office and a top notch head coach. They are committed to building a young team that can play with the best of the best in the NFL. We showed last year that a strong O-line and dominant D can cover up the weakness of a rookie QB, but this may not be enough to defeat the elite. As others on another post pointed out, the key risk to the 2010 season is how well the Sanchez kid develops. If he plays well this team has a shot at the whole thing. If he struggles, 2010 could be a step back year. But the long-term foundation for this team is in place and the roster is being built to peak as Sanchez develops. I can’t remember a time in NY Jets history that felt so promising. The future in NY is as bright as any team in the NFL… including those guys up in New England.Can’t wait for the games to start!
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kennydajet says:
Its clear without a doubt the Jets are waaaaaaay more talented than the Pats. The big question will be how we stack up at head coach and QB. IMO I think Rex Ryan will surpass BB….if he hasn’t already. Bigger question is Brady vs. Sanchez. Clearly Brady is better right now but Sanchez in 2-4 years should surpass him. As for right now we will have to see just how much catching up Mark has to do to pass Tom. It may not be all that long if Sanchez can make a big leap from year 1 to year 2. Overall with talent and youth on the Jets side (including Rex and Mr T.) they should remain very good for a very long time. The Patriots……..Not So Much :-)
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Eric,
Actually, Chris knows exactly what he is talking about. The Jets have had the longest consecutive streak of starts by the OL of any team in the league, and by a healthy margin. There is a very good chance that the luck wasn’t going to hold up this year (I’m not sure if phasing out Faneca was a positive or negative in that regard, but the larger point remains quite intact). As for the devastating injuries that you’re pointing out, they are only devastating because you are looking at them in a vacuum. The Jets were one of the healthiest teams in the league when you look at the number of starts missed by starting players. They weren’t right up at the top of the league, but they were well above-average. Most NFL teams have it much worse.
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that high powered patriots offense looks awfully tame without welker and his ability to move the chains. we saw that both in our first match up against the pats and in their playoff game vs baltimore.
i honestly dont think there is a team in the nfl that we match up better against than the patriots, especially if they dont have welker. the only guy we have to key in on is randy. our front 7 can handle the pats run game without help, which means there will be a lot of blitzers coming after brady all day long.
and then there is our offense. who on the pats can cover braylon? and cotch? and santonio? and keller? they have ONE play maker in that secondary in merriweather. ONE.
i think we sweep them this coming season for the first time in like forever.
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The Pats are a machine. They go to the playoffs virtually every year which is no easy feat with the cap. BB is adept at keeping the team young & restocked with fresh talent. You just can never count that team out. I do think Brady is declining & his motivation to play football is waning-any of you guys see the house he is building in California?
. The Jets are clearly more talented on paper this year, but doing it over the years is the real challenge. I think Tanny & Rex are building a champion now, but matching the Pats for the next 5 years will be another test.
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Love the personal attacks Eric in Stl, I thought TJB wasn’t that kind of site…
As for DE’s being inconsequential in Rex’s defense, I assume you’re saying that Haloti Ngata and Trevor Pryce were inconsequential for Baltimore all those years under Rex?
As for crapping on me for saying the Jets would be a sub-500 team if our o-line had injuries, maybe you missed the huge jump in our TJ’s yards per carry the last two (healthy OL) years?
You think replacing Mangold with Turner and/or Faneca with Slauson for a few games wouldn’t cost a win or two, given Sanchez’s woes last year? Who plays LT if Brick goes down, Woody? Give me a break!
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I think its kind of tough to gauge the Patriots right now. You cant argue with their success and it seems you can pencil them in for 11 wins every year, but right now they kind of remind me of where the Patriots were in 2005 and 2006 where, even with the AFC Championship game appearance, they were nowhere near the level of their Super Bowl teams. They completely turned their fortunes around in 2007 by bringing in Moss and Welker. I think they need some kind of impact like that again right now to ensure they end up back in the playoffs.
The 05 and 06 teams could still cruise because the division was so weak. I think our squad and the Dolphins are much better than their respective teams in those years. On top of that the conference is filled with better QBs. Back then you had Brady and Manning with Palmer, Rivers, and Roethlisberger trying to establish themselves. Now you have Brady, Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger as established high quality QBs. You have Flacco, Sanchez, and Henne trying to establish themselves. You could throw Schaub into that mix as well. Its far more competitive now. NE needs Brady to have a major bounceback season which gets Moss pumped up for the team to guarantee another trip to the playoffs.
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Mr. Pick Six says:
Flaws= We don’t have a good punter nor kicker.. Which will cost us games
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Doug Brien years anybody?
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F-16 says:
Considering that Tanny has made some big jumps in recent drafts I know that I was expecting him to do the same this year. When it didn’t happen I was a little surprised but also glad we stopped selling the farm for a need. How it works out on paper in next years draft we’ll have to wait and see.
The Pats are no pushover team for us yet, one thing that they have above all else is a mindset that they will win the game. I think in years past the Jets were lacking a little bit of that mindset. But I don’t think that way anymore especially with the run they had last year.
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P.S
I think a winning mindset trickels down to backups Who will then go out in a blaze of glory for the team because they don’t want to be the one to let the team down. -
Eric in StL:
I know it feels good to rant and rave about what might be, but let me give you some simple numbers regarding the drafts ’08, ’09 and ’10.
NE has drafted 31 players to our 13. Nineteen Of those drafted by Belichick in ’09 and ’08 a total of SEVENTEEN (17) are still on their roster and ONE (Kevin O’Connell) is presently on the Jets roster.
On the Jets side, of the 9 drafted by Tannenbaum in ’09 and ’08, ( one is Gholston) only four have hitt the field with any consequence whatsoever!!
The fact is that the more coal you “mine” the more diamonds you can find. And it can take up to three years to fully value a draft. This has been Belichick’s legacy and that is the reason they have been so successfull during the past decade!!!
Now, you can turn this argument any way you want, but the irrefutable fact is we have NOTwon the division yet, and untill we do and do it consistently, we can’t never say that we are THE most talented team. We must prove it on the field first, NOT ON PAPER!!!!!
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Hank/Naples,
Why conveniently leave out ’07 when the Jets drafted two All Pros (Harris and Revis) and ’06 when they drafted another two big time players in Brick and Mangold? The Patriots have not drafted well of late, while the Jets have drafted very well- that’s indisputable. Just because a lot of guys are on the team doesn’t mean they’re very good. I’d rather have 1 Revis than half of the players the Pats have drafted on D combined. The coal/diamond analogy is faulty because the Pats have drafted no diamonds. The Jets with fewer picks have drafted Revis (diamond), Harris (diamond), Brick (diamond), Mangold (diamond), Sanchez and Greene (potential diamonds and the future of our team). What diamonds have the Pats gotten? They’ve gotten some decent coal, but no diamonds. Their best pick was Mayo (10th overall I might add) and he could not carry Harris’ jock. So what are you talking about? Everybody supporting the Pats need to point to a few guys who would even start on this Jets team that they drafted. In fact, everyone on the Pats bandwagon, go down their roster and see how many players would sniff the starting rotation for the Jets. Once you do that, come back and talk to me.
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JayM says:
Can someone tell me who is the backup QB in the Pats?
Can you tell me who are the WR’s besides Moss on the Pats?
When you look at their roster and talk about depth let me know how deep are the Pats at those positions.
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JayM – If the number of stars on a team equalled championships, the Chargers would’ve won the last four Superbowls. I’m a huge Jets fan but that doesn’t mean I’m blind to our shortcomings.
The whole point of my post was to say that while we have tremendous starters, their replacements leave a lot to be desired.
I’d take these NE backups over ours any day:
Sebastian Vollmer over Turner
Pat Chung over Ihedigbo
Brace AND Pryor over Pouha
Crumpler AND Hernandez over Hartsock
Darius Butler over Coleman
Brandon Spikes over CummingsThey’re just the positions I’m confident about, the rest are a wash, and we’re deeper at just *one* position – QB depth.
To reiterate, I am a huge Jets fan, just not a blind one.
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Jeff says:
Thats why as a Jets fan I dont let the hypee get to me. I remember an article on ESPN Page2. I remember there was an article talking about the most disappointed fan bases.
I remember how it clearly said, that unlike the other teams, we Jets fans expect our team to lose or screw up sooner or later. So when we lost to the Colts it wasnt that big of a shocker, since we kind of saw it coming.
Meanwhile Minnesota and Buffalo are like the top-2 in most disappointed fan bases. With the Bills going to 4SB and no wins, and with great teams and talent and no championships. The Vikings losing the SB in the 70′s countless times, the missed kick by Anderson in 98, when they were invincible. And of course as it happened a week before the article came out- Brett Favre interception that all but sealed the Vikings fate for a SB bid
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seanmac,
Yes, by employing a “running back by committee” approach, the Pats have good total rush yardage, but the RBs they have are just not very good. Sorry, but I think the DVOA stats are skewed by how good the Pats passing game is. The highest DVOA you cite was in 2007, when Tom Brady set the TD record. I don’t think any team plays the Pats and fears their running game. If the Pats had a legit running threat, it would make the Pats offense even more effective. Plus, I’m not saying that they need to draft an RB in the 1st round, but the Pats have drafted a ton of TEs an OL…both positions where great value can be found in the UDFA market. I know it’s an FO mantra that RBs are fungible. Okay, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t important for a balanced offense. Last year, the Pats passed on Shonne Greene. Maybe he would’ve been more useful than Sebastian Vollmer and maybe he would’ve been more cost-effective than Fred Taylor. IMO, the Pats goofed in their RB strategy. So, we disagree.
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JoeF,
I like Turner quite a bit. He’s been the Jets OL that has always looked good in his limited duty. I’m not a Wayne Hunter fan, but Turner can play. Also, Pouha was a revelation last season and graded out as one of the best DTs in the NFL, especially against the run. So, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree there, too. Chung over Digs? Not in run support.
BB has taken the vet RB approach and Rex the vet DL approach, which worked very well in Baltimore. All Rex did his first year was lead the NFL in defense and he only carries 5 DL (sometimes just 4) on game days. So, DL depth just isn’t something that is crucial for the Jets D. I hope Reamer or Satele pan out or the Jets sign AD because I think the Jets are thin at ILB depth after Scott and Harris. But, the usual criticism of the OL and DL depth just isn’t accurate. The Jets OL played all those consecutive games together, so it’s impossible to tell what Slauson, Turner and now Ducasse can do as starters. Just like you can’t assume they would play as well as the starters, I don’t think you can assume that they’d be Adrien Clarke-like disasters either.
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Green Goblin says:
If the Jets add AD then they will surpass the Patriots….A defense with AD will destroy the Pats offense…
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James in TN says:
If but for no other reason than we don’t cheat to win ballgames, we will always be better than the patsies.
Belichick can go !@#$ himself.
GO JETS!!!!!!!!
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EricinStL:
You are not only unfair but also wrong !!!
My original comment was that NE (Belichick) had drafted 24 players to our 7 the last TWO drafts wherein lies the probability for a teams success (as demonstrated by NE during the last DECADE) !!!
You accuse me of being “conveniently” selective when in fact it is you that selectively and unfairly stopped at Manginis first draft in ’06 (which also happent to be the Jets BEST ever).
Let me remind you that Belichick has been drafting dozens (no need to name them) of outstanding players since becoming HC in 2000 and we as an organization can not, like you say, “hold his jock” when it comes to his PROVEN elite draft status
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dakar says:
hank
i said this a few days ago…BBs drafting style ( quantity over quality in the hopes of finding quality) is NO LONGER WORKING…from 06 till now he must have averaged at least 10-12 picks a draft…in those drafts the only player i can concider really good is brandon mearyweather…the only probowler he drafted in those years…unless im missing some1…
as for tanny and the jets we have been drafting quality over quantity…it has been working out lovely…its been working so good teams are starting to look at us for a change…tanny has chosen not to over value draftpicks…as every other team still does…but they are still looking…hopefully by the time other teams draft the way we do it would be to late and we’ll be the next dynasty of this decade…
the trades tanny made should also be taken into concideration because he did trade draft picks for the players he brought into the jets org.just saying…
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hank/naples,
this is the last i am going to say on this subject, but the people who think BB’s draft style right now is better than NYJ’s are being way overly pessimistic. if you’d really rather a ton of mediocre draft picks over the quality the Jets have (don’t forget, Jenkins, Braylon, Cromartie, and Santonio were all acquired for “draft picks”). that sounds a lot like late round diamonds to me. the Jets have acquired almost every one of their quality starters through the draft or shrewd trading of low draft picks. the Pats have a bunch of their garbage starters coming in recently.
joeF,
“I’d take these NE backups over ours any day:
Sebastian Vollmer over Turner
Pat Chung over Ihedigbo
Brace AND Pryor over Pouha
Crumpler AND Hernandez over Hartsock
Darius Butler over Coleman
Brandon Spikes over Cummings”Vollmer is going to be starting this year as Matt Light was horrendous (I don’t honestly know who plays behind him), I have no idea if Pat Chung is better than Ihedigbo but Ihedigbo is not really a traditional safety (he’s just there to blitz, I’d argue that the comparison is more Chung to Eric Smith, in which case Eric Smith is better), Crumpler is ancient and fat, Darius Butler and Coleman are equally useless, and Brandon Spikes is likely their starter. I don’t see where these comparisons are even relevant. You’re comparing top back ups/potential starters on the Pats to 4th and 5th stringers on the Jets. Yes, if the Jets start Turner, Ihedigbo, Pouha, Hartsock, Coleman, and Cummings- they’re screwed this year, anybody would be. To assume that the Jets would have to rely on these guys though is a ridiculous leap of faith in the negative direction as it would require an absolute slew of injuries at many key positions. For the last time, these are all back ups for a reason! Maybe we should only play the Pats in the pre-season so everyone can have their wish and see if their 3rd string can beat ours.
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hank – as usual your story lacks important evidence. you forgetting to include the players such as braylon edwards and santionio holmes as players drafted. you need to count them or your argument is incomplete.
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sackdance,
I didn’t suggest that the Patriots running backs were very good; all I said is that the Patriots run the ball well with mediocre backs, which is true. It’s certainly possible for a passing game to make life easier for running backs, but I don’t think it’s simply a question of being good at passing but rather how the offense is schemed. Look at last year–the Chargers had the #1 passing attack in the league and the #32 running attack. But the Chargers run a pretty conventional passing offense that works because their quarterback is so good and their receivers and tight end present physical mismatches. The Saints, on the other hand, had the best running attack in the league. It’s not because they Pierre Thomas and Mike Bell and Reggie Bush are great backs, but because of the combination of teams worrying about the passing game and Sean Payton setting up the run through scheme. The Patriots have been running a modified spread offense, and the spread makes the running game effective by virtue of formation and play set-up.
Eddie,
I’m not sure I agree with your definition of what makes for an effective running game. If I’m reading you right, a team that can run the ball well is a team that can run the ball out of typical run formations and be effective against a defense that is getting ready to stop the run. (Think Minnesota in the I, or maybe the Steelers back when they had Jerome Bettis.) But yards are yards, and if the Patriots can do as well calling draws out of shotgun sets, then there really is no functional difference between them and a more traditional power offense.
The Pats were 10th in the league in short yardage power situations, and they were in the top five at keeping their running backs from getting stuffed for zero gain or for a loss of yardage. What they were lacking was big play yardage because their running backs aren’t particularly good and were unlikely to turn a three yard play into a twenty yard play. Anyway, the reality is that when you have Tom Brady and Randy Moss and Wes Welker, there are very few reasons why you should need to run to pick up yardage. Aside from short-yardage situations, a pass is nearly always a more efficient play call, especially when your personnel is so good. Basically, it’s a luxury for the Patriots to be better at running the ball than they are, because they are very good at passing the ball, which is the much more important indicator of offensive success.
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seanmac,
do you agree that the pats could have quite easily used a pick some place to try and upgrade their rb situation. does that sound fair? i just feel like they could’ve done that for such little of a price. why not, at the expense of tyrone mckenzi, get a hr hitter that would potentially diversify that offense even more? (shonn greene). sure it works, but why not upgrade?
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Bent says: Sean – I’m having a chicken v egg dilemma with your analysis of the Pats running game.
Are you saying:
(a) The Pats running game is good so their backs aren’t as bad as we think
or
(b) The Pats running game is good so they can be effective even with mediocre backs
I would have thought that if the Pats have a good running game but their running backs are consistently viewed as a disappointment, that would be an even more damning verdict on either the backs themselves or the scouting of the Pats front office, as opposed to a team where the backs are viewed as a disappointment, but that’s because their numbers aren’t very good due to the team’s poor running game as a whole.
What do you think?
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Bent says:
Joe – While your comment about the depth of the Pats roster has some merit, I take issue with you saying you’d prefer Pryor and Brace to Pouha. I can’t see what you would be basing that on, because Pouha had a very good season last year and Pryor and Brace had almost no impact whatsoever.
I realize Brace is viewed at a good prospect because he went in the 2nd round but in reality he was a 5th round prospect that went three rounds too early because (a) he was the best two-gap NT prospect left on the board in a weak year and (b) the Pats had surplus picks and an urgent need, so could afford to reach. The Jets reached for Pouha in the 3rd round for the exact same reason and it’s taken him until he was almost 30 to have any kind of impact. Pryor was better than Brace, but he wasn’t better than Howard Green, who the Jets released because he won’t get any playing time on their line this year.
Eric – Joe is right that we don’t encourage personal attacks here. Implying someone doesn’t know what they are talking about or must be a fan of another team falls under this category. Please feel free to debate the content of someone’s post, but we prefer people not to make personal comments about another poster for obvious reasons.
That goes for everyone else too. I realize we have plenty of new posters that may be used to posting on other boards where they let you get into flame wars, but we’ve kept those to a minimum for nearly 6 years now and intend to continue to do so, no matter how big the site gets.
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dakar/ EricinStL:
The problem I have accepting your arguments is that you both “Selectively” and “conveniently” choose the Jets finest draft YEAR to try and prove your point, while ommitiong the fact that it can take two to three years for NFL players to develop their value. This is specially true when you consider the quality of the existing player they are trying to displace.
For dakar to say that Belichicks style “IS NO LONGER WORKING ” is just flat out wrong.
He tries to prove this by pointing out ’06 and ’07 draft years while ommiting the fact that the Pats roster TODAY, as my arguments states, has 18 out of 19 players drafted in ’08 and ’09.
And again, this argument holds no water when you consider that the Pats roster has approx. 30 % fresh blood ( last two drafts) that probability alone states some will be successful NFL starters!!!
Also, for EricinStL to say that the players aquired via trade the last three years equates or is better than Belichick’s starting roster aquired through the draft is just dillusional ( a mirage). To make that argument, Eric must take into account players like Wilfork, Mankins, Brady, Seymour and Warren just to name a VERY FEW !!!
All these players were drafted by Belichick way before ’07 or ’08.
Now, including Manginis draft of ’06, tell me how the Jets volumeous draft picks stand up against those.
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Bent,
More like c) running backs aren’t as important to a rushing attack as you might suspect.
When you look at injuries and the effect they have on a team’s rushing performance, running backs are actually at the bottom of the list. The most important person is actually the quarterback–when he gets hurt, rushing efficiency goes down with him. Next come the offensive linemen, and at the bottom are the backs themselves. Running back performance is largely fungible, and the position has a short shelf life.
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Hank,
The guys from those drafts are not the heart and soul of the team for the pats. Guys like brady, welker, faulk, moss, etc. are collectively the face of the pats right now. Whereas the jets have gotten their entire core recently through the draft. Just because guys are still on the team does not make them all that good. Their two “core” guys drafted recently are mayo and meriweather- neither as good as the ILB and secondary player that the Jets recently drafted. After that they drafted no key players
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Johnny Reefer says:
If depth and draft picks won superbowls the lions would have been in the playoffs every year, or the browns, or us.
You need a great system on one side of the ball. (Rex’s Defense)
and,
You need impact players that can excel in that system.
Plus when you draft, you need to make sure you pick up the high talent players.
Its how its always been. From pick up games, to Highschool, to College, to the NFL.
the best players are picked first, if you get enough impact players, with enough guys trying to prove their worth. it means you’ll win alot of games.
I’d rather have 1 player, then 3, who is better then all 3 combined.
If he gets hurt, he gets hurt, but there is just as much of a chance he wont get hurt, then if he does, and maybe these 2nd string players we have just need the chance to shine.
Greene anybody?
Everyone was saying our line wouldn’t be healthy last year and look what happened. Now we have more OL depth then last year.
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Josh says:
Hello, NE fan here. I’m glad to see NE get a ton of respect from you guys. I’m excited about this year coming up because NE vs NY should be awesome! Good to see the gap closing to make the division so exciting. Now, about our RB’s……
It really isn’t THAT big of a deal. I would love to see Maroney go too but the fact of the matter is NE is pass 1st – run 2nd. BB knows the lifespan of RB’s and probably felt this years draft class of RB’s wasn’t too good anyway. There weren’t too many to choose from, really.
Other than that, I look forward to this year. Good luck to you guys!
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Pyper says:
The misperceptions of the Patriots continue. Their 2007 draft gets criticized when in fact it was a HUGE success. In what many have described as a very weak draft class, the Patriots traded all but their first day one selection for veteran players. They selected Brandon Meriweather in the first round and then traded their second rounder for Wes Welker and then aquired Randy Moss. None of their day two picks stuck around but then again, that 2007 team went 16-0 and was one of the greatest teams in NFL history.
The 2008 rookie class was headlined by Jerrod Mayo (1st) and Gary Guyton (UDFA) and currently has SEVEN players still with the team. Hardly numbers worthy of being labeled a poor class. This class would get a tremendous boost if OLB – Shawn Crable (3rd rd) can make it out of training camp. Crable has suffered season ending injuries during both of his first two training camps. RB – Ben Jarvus Green Ellis (UDFA) also was found in this class and has proved valuable when he’s received playing time.
Time will tell about the 2009 draft class but the early results indicate a successful draft. This is the year Pioli left for KC and BB began stockpiling early round selections. Apparently Belichick feels he has a much better opportunity to improve the team with an abundant number of early round selections. In 2009, the Patriots ended up making four selections in the second round and another two in the third.
Projected Starters:
CB – Butler (2nd)
SS – Chung (2nd)
OT – Vollmer (2nd)
WR – Edelman (7th)
LS – Ingram (6th) (granted a long snapper shouldn’t count)Contributors:
DL – Prior (6th)
OL – Ohrnberger (4th)IR’d last season:
WR – Tate (3rd round)
ILB – McKenzie (3rd round)Still on team:
DT – Brace
OL – Bussey
DL – RichardThat means that ALL 12 picks from last season’s draft class are still on the team. This has the potential to turn into one of those landmark draft classes that sets a team up for a long time. The same can be said of the Patriots 2010 draft class.
If or when the Patriots re-emerge at the top of the NFL mountain, the 2009 and 2010 draft classes will be the reason why.
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Bill Beck says:
Analysis Paralysis.
How many SB have Jets won so far?
End of Conversation.
Belichick is definitely not asleep at the wheel. When the season starts we all know that they will again have a winning team and be in the playoff hunt. But I love what Tanny and Rex are doing. Go Jets!!